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[MOD] THE BIG BALANCE PLAN -- Master Thread

By on December 9, 2009 9:41:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

gkrit

Join Date 01/2009
+32

I'm currently adding and tweaking some figures for the demis we are finding that lack effectiveness/efficiency. I know these types of mods aren't very popular atm but i wouldnt mind working on these thoroughly so i can request it to become an official patch.

I am trying to alter as few things as possible (for the considered underpowered demis) just so that there isnt a noticeably big change but enough to change their incompetence to competent!

However, i am going to need opinions of my proposed changes.
I'll be doing one demigod at a time and will provide a list of the changes.
I prob wont put the mod up for download until its completely finished but if you request a download link, i willl provide one.

The Item Balance Mod works very well with this one. It addresses the HP stacking issue we currently have and contains other balance decisions to gloves and all other categories.

List of players using the Big Balance Plan mod (please let me know so i put your name here):
- Me!
- Izuz
- MixMagic
- Go-Go-Gadget
- AIAndy
- Supafishy


Below are links to changes for each demigod. Discuss accordingly. *All open in a new window*

-- Put ur suggestions forward in dot-points in their respective threads.

1. Demon Assassin

2. Torch Bearer

3. Unclean Beast

4. Regulus

5. Queen of Thorns

6. Oak

7. Sedna

8. Rook

9. Erebus

10. Oculus   *added*

The latest version available now down below...

DEMIGOD BALANCE MOD v1.23 DOWNLOAD HERE!!!

Version 1.23 update below!

-----------------------------------------------------
# All Demigods
-----------------------------------------------------

Base Max health
- increased by 100

Level up Stats
- Max Health - increases by an additional 30 health

-----------------------------------------------------
# Oculus
-----------------------------------------------------

Bug Fixes
- Electrocution now works as intended
- brainstorm now removes debuffs (thx to ptarth and nzac working on it)

Blast Off I
- adjusted the dmg radius to equal the same as levels II,III and IV

King Of The Minotaurs - Minos

- added armor bonus of 50/100/150

King Of The Minotaurs - Archers
- added attack speed bonus of 3%/5%/7%

King Of The Minotaurs - Priests

- added mana regen bonus of 2/3/4

Sacrifice
- increased heal percentages to 20%/40%/60% from 20/30/40%
- increased heal radius to 15 from 10

Ball Lightning IV

- decreased mana cost to 720
- each level now increases in attack rate from 1.7 to 1.65/1.6/1.55
- increased max balls to 6, decreased summon amount to 3

Explosive end
- decreased dmg to 300 from 400

-----------------------------------------------------
# Queen of Thorns
-----------------------------------------------------

Ground Spikes
- decreased attack speed buff duration to 8 secs

Uproot
- increased mana costs to 350/450/600/800

Violent Siege
- increased dmg to 250 dmg.

Bramble Shield II
- added movement speed buff of 5%

Bramble Shield IV
- decreased movement speed buff to 15%

-----------------------------------------------------
# Unclean Beast
-----------------------------------------------------

Bestial Wrath I,II,III,IV
- changed durations to 6/7/8/9 seconds
- changed damage bonuses to 30%/40%/50%/60%

-----------------------------------------------------
# Regulus
-----------------------------------------------------

Angelic Fury
- damage of the splash dmg is reduced to -75/60/35/20% from -30/25/20/15%
- increased mana costs to 30/35/40/45 from 25/30/35/40

-----------------------------------------------------
# Torch Bearer
-----------------------------------------------------

Deep Freeze I
- increased debuff duration to 6 seconds


 

 

Please motivate urselves to give feedback, all of it helps this process.

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December 9, 2009 10:03:56 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Nice to see this, hope it an be official.  I'll be commenting once regulus shows up.

What demis are you planning to buff?

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December 9, 2009 10:13:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

TB was my main concern since hes recieve much complaint but im planning on buffing ...

- reg
- Qot
- sedna (minions more than anything)
- maybe rook (need to look into it)

demis like UB, oak and erebus are not rlly in the plan but if i do alter things they will be very very minor, as nerfing may get a negative response from the public.

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December 9, 2009 12:04:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Perma Frost I
- attack speed debuff increased to -0.05%

 

Should that have read -5%?  0.05% seems really not noticeable...  Outside of that correction, the changes look good.  Are your plans to release the mod when all is done or to simply release it as you fix each DG?

Also, are you planning on having a thread per DG, all referenced by one 'master' thread?  That way we can keep discussion focused and it will probably make your life easier.

Cheers,
Thanatos.

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December 9, 2009 12:06:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

sedna doesnt need anything buffed but her minions! pls dont even think about buffing anything else!

though i think that ub, le, and oak could use a slight nerf youre propably right that others dont see it that way.

try to chat with cosmoe or darz4 about queen. morpheas has already begun buffing her.

and you guys who all create balance mods should talk with each other so that hopefully finally you build one big balance mod that most people agree on using.

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December 9, 2009 12:12:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Derog,

and you guys who all create balance mods should talk with each other so that hopefully finally you build one big balance mod that most people agree on using.

We could use one great balance mod (to rule them all), so that it has a chance of being adopted by SD/GPG.

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December 9, 2009 12:57:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Trigeminal,

Quoting Derog, reply 4
and you guys who all create balance mods should talk with each other so that hopefully finally you build one big balance mod that most people agree on using.

We could use one great balance mod (to rule them all), so that it has a chance of being adopted by SD/GPG.

Yep, but it has to become popular before that which is very hard to acheive. You have to be super careful. For example nerfing existing "good" Demigods such as UB/Oak/Ereb would be a very bad idea.

Also I think changing a ability completely wouldn't be good either, it's probably just better to buff those who needs buffing. And also, not too big step should be taken, like for example increasing "Snipe" damage by 300 or something. etc etc.

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December 9, 2009 2:15:47 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm not sure it is possible but for casters such as TB or Reg, is it possible to give "spells" such as fire and snipe a dmg+bonus dmgxlvl in the lua. 

If it is this could help them maintain relevance in later levels when hp stacking is heavier, but prevent them from being overpowered early-mid game.

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December 9, 2009 2:37:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Trigeminal,
I'm not sure it is possible but for casters such as TB or Reg, is it possible to give "spells" such as fire and snipe a dmg+bonus dmgxlvl in the lua. 

If it is this could help them maintain relevance in later levels when hp stacking is heavier, but prevent them from being overpowered early-mid game.

Oh, that gave me an interesting idea. If you did this, to be fair, every spell would need to be affected by level to keep things even at all levels. A solid mod that made all skills level dependant, to an extent, would be pretty interesting. Argh, I wish I had my desktop here to work on this, lol.

Oh, and to answer your question: Yes, it is possible. Just a question of the easiest/best method. I guess I could start working on the numbers now, with some minor coding, then just finish the grunt work when I get back Jan...

<sigh> My list of projects is getting rather large.

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December 9, 2009 2:48:14 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Alot of Level 15 skills utterly suck. The focus should be on the weak dgs, but other could use better ones aswell.

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December 9, 2009 2:56:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree that small changes to the week demigods is the way to go.  I play  TorchBearer often and the biggest problem (besides the fire while moving issue) is the lack of health regen.  Extending Frozen Heart will have the practical effect of buffing his autoattack which I think is also needed.  You might even want to increase the weapon damage buff that Frozen Heart gives.

I will be more than willing to help test the mod with torchbearer when you are ready to do so.

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December 9, 2009 4:38:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

OP changed

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December 9, 2009 4:42:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Also the main 'buff' that rook needs is a fix to his chase distance/speed. Currently if rook is able to move faster than a DG, he will match their speed outside of melee range. The mechanic is in place to keep Melee DGs from running past their target and to keep ranged characters from entering into melee range, but rook's is just set too far and it prevents his autoattack completely.

Otherwise rook is in decent shape, although structural transfer is awful.

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December 9, 2009 5:08:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I like that these changes are so conservative, it reflects the pretty decent balance the game currently has.

Thats becasue these changes dont get ice TB much better off than he already is, he still cant 1vs1 vs any general or beast and in the 3vs3s non of these changes really help that much, but his debuffs are already decent for helping in large numbers combat.

Fireball
- reduced cast time to 0.8 secs

Now it will just be the pros who can stun it, the annmations pretty obvious, and fire tb recived no other meaninful buffs either.

Relive the Immolation
- extended duration to 20 secs
- changed regen to 0.7
- added +20 health regen

its a nice buff to ice tb but fire tb still seem to be able to cast indefinatly, +20 hps is only good early game when both TBs are fine.

the top 3 if the make small changes to play style and build will still smash this TB around (unless hes Oclun). Sedna can do it without any changes. Looks like he would been reg conclucively now.

 

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December 9, 2009 8:57:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Thanatosesc,

Should that have read -5%?  0.05% seems really not noticeable...  Outside of that correction, the changes look good.  Are your plans to release the mod when all is done or to simply release it as you fix each DG?

Also, are you planning on having a thread per DG, all referenced by one 'master' thread?  That way we can keep discussion focused and it will probably make your life easier.

Cheers,
Thanatos.

lol yes. that % was copied from the code and i forgot to change it. As for releasing ... i think ur idea of making smaller threads to cater for a single demigod makes sense but id rlly like all these changes to be under the one mod. Unless you mean for me to provide the tweak details only in other threads but have the mod dl here?

Quoting Derog,
sedna doesnt need anything buffed but her minions! pls dont even think about buffing anything else!

though i think that ub, le, and oak could use a slight nerf youre propably right that others dont see it that way.

try to chat with cosmoe or darz4 about queen. morpheas has already begun buffing her.

and you guys who all create balance mods should talk with each other so that hopefully finally you build one big balance mod that most people agree on using.

minion alterations are the only thing on my mind when it comes to tweaking sedna

Quoting Trigeminal,

Quoting Derog, reply 4
and you guys who all create balance mods should talk with each other so that hopefully finally you build one big balance mod that most people agree on using.

We could use one great balance mod (to rule them all), so that it has a chance of being adopted by SD/GPG.

That's what the big balance plan is all about

Quoting Trigeminal,
I'm not sure it is possible but for casters such as TB or Reg, is it possible to give "spells" such as fire and snipe a dmg+bonus dmgxlvl in the lua. 

If it is this could help them maintain relevance in later levels when hp stacking is heavier, but prevent them from being overpowered early-mid game.

Hmmm ... could be interesting but i wanna steer away from alter a function or dmg equation of a skill. That way theres wont be much confusion.

Quoting ntropy,
Alot of Level 15 skills utterly suck. The focus should be on the weak dgs, but other could use better ones aswell.

i plan on fixing these.

Quoting mgmetal13,
I agree that small changes to the week demigods is the way to go.  I play  TorchBearer often and the biggest problem (besides the fire while moving issue) is the lack of health regen.  Extending Frozen Heart will have the practical effect of buffing his autoattack which I think is also needed.  You might even want to increase the weapon damage buff that Frozen Heart gives.

I will be more than willing to help test the mod with torchbearer when you are ready to do so.

Well i decided to leave the dmg bonus as it was coz i increased the buff time of the passive bonus. I added +400 armor to the buff also just to make him a little more durable (could be good when vsing an oak hehe).

Quoting HorseStrangler,
I like that these changes are so conservative, it reflects the pretty decent balance the game currently has.

Here's one I'd add to the list: Ranged attackers no longer suffer proc rate penalties on Nature's Reckoning, Poisoned Dagger, Wyrmskin Handguards, or anything else of that nature. Currently I believe they only get 66% of the tooltip's proc rate, correct me if I'm wrong.

oh thx for reminding me. This was another aspect i was going to change. But thi'll prob be apart of another mod. Proc rates are attacked to the items themselves.

and about rook, im having problems finding the base stats of a character. if anyone knows where i could find these, plz lemme know.

@ nzac i wanna keep the changes very minimal for now coz big changes can deter players for all sorts of reasons -- either they just dont like it or it would alter the gameplay too much etc.

so we'll see how it goes

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December 10, 2009 2:20:42 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

@ nzac i wanna keep the changes very minimal for now coz big changes can deter players for all sorts of reasons -- either they just dont like it or it would alter the gameplay too much etc.

But no changes mean that there is no point in playing the mod, i supose there is a ballance in the middle.

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December 10, 2009 3:04:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i see where you're comin from but id rather start small than change the game altogether.

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December 13, 2009 5:29:53 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

*new links added

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December 13, 2009 10:56:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

should be combined to one mod ..... i only added the Master-Thread to the mod list....shall i add them all individually ???

great work

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December 14, 2009 12:55:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

adding them invididually is up to you. if u are, just make them sub links underneath the current masterthread title. Thanks for including it btw.

and yes .. all character mods will be apart of one mod (if thats what you were referring to).

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December 14, 2009 3:24:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I've made a lot of comments in your balance changes. I didn't make any in ones I really didn't feel needed to be commented on, and then I ignored Queen because I'd like to see morpheus' mod merged with this since it is a bit more ... extensive and original than yours.

First, I do think that this game needs tiny balance changes. We are talking about +/- 5% changes, not sweeping changes that completely shift the balance, I think this is a good thing, and I tried to keep my proposed changes in line with that.

Regarding Level 15 skills... what do we want to do with them? First, we can just buff the (many) crappy ones to make them all decent, but it has always been my feeling that Level 10 skills always feel "badass" and a Level 10 demigod is terrifying to a Level 9 demigod because of it. But Level 14 against a Level 15...? Meh, nothing really terrifying.

Acclimation is an exception, and a few of the level 15 active skills are nice (eg, Silence III is brutal, Frost Nova III is brutal, etc).

But most demigods have, at most, one good level 15 passive skill. (Inspirational Flame, Magnificent Presence, Acclimation, Shattering Force/Poison Arrows, Purity, ... most of LE's xP).

So, as a community I think we should decide how Level 15 skills should work out. Should the active skills be awe-inspiring but extremely mana-costly? Should the passives be GODLIKE. Or should it just be "meh, I have a Mageslayer it doesn't really matter if he is two levels ahead of me". For most other level thresholds (4,5,7,10), the skills get dramatically better and I have to evaluate if I can take a demigod who has reached a threshold I haven't (eg, 8 v 9 is much more duable than 9 v 10).

I mean, I really don't want to make the game absurdly unbalanced at level 15+, but I do think that if you have a level 15 demigod and they don't you should be able to dominate the map until they get one to match you. Of course, if you have giants and they don't, or if they are stupid and choose to fight in a creep wave then they shouldn't be able to beat you up. But if you both go to the XP on cata flag and hit eachother a bunch of times, the level 15 should solidly beat the Level 14. This would really give a much  more "epic" conclusion to games, letting people feel like they have artifacts when they so rarely do.

An example of what I'm talking about is:

Sedna's "Life's Child" While under 30% hp, you gain 50 hps. Note that in the dogpile that is late-game Cataract, if you have 30% of your max hp, you aren't going to last much longer, this skill does virtually nothing. Sigils help alot because if you sigil you pretty much are at 40% of your (new) max hp and it's easier to trigger this. But, still, useless.

Strip the condition -> "Forces of Light guard Sedna, giving her 35 hps". Now, if a Level 14 Sedna tries to fight a Level 15 Sedna with the same items and builds (and a neutral HP flag) on the XP flag... well, that Level 15 Sedna will pretty much rape face since in a long heal-pounce match that +35 hps would equal a good 500 hp at least.

I think that Acclimation was a truly terrifyingly powerful ability. A level 15 UB was something to be feared just because of that. I think that we don't quite want THAT level of power, but something in between that and well... Reg's skills.

Gkirit's modifications to Tribute to give Queen +600 hp and +600 mana is another example of this. Maybe dual-tree level 15 skills should be similar to Acclimation since it requires such a massive skill-point investment. But I really think that a lot of the Level 15 skills should be BAMF. Because right now they all feel really meh.

---

Didn't put this any where else, but I would like to see Stats improved. Right now, Improved Attributes are really only useful for a pure-Ooze build and that's pretty much it.

Current:

  • +115 Health
  • +0.18 Health Regeneration
  • +2% Attack Speed
  • +25 Armor
  • +105 Mana
  • +0.32 Mana Regeneration
  • +6 Weapon Damage

New:

  • +165 Health
  • +0.5 Health Regeneration
  • +2% Attack Speed
  • +50 Armor
  • +155 Mana
  • +0.5 Mana Regeneration
  • +10 Weapon Damage

This is more of a drastic buff to Stats than a lot of other proposed changes but the real value of Stats is only really realized when you take multiple points in it (and if you do that, you're sacrificing other stuff), so I think it could be okay.

Morale may also need a buff, most minion/general builds tend to be lacking anyway compared to assassin type builds and Morale may be a way to even the gap.

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December 14, 2009 6:36:51 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Morale is fine. The problem is that minion items aren't good enough and as a result hybrid builds(not assasin builds, only noobs take these) can emulate minion builds while still keeping stun/bite/high hp.

Im not sure about stats: in the end I'll pretty much always get the active skill.

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December 14, 2009 7:01:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

MOD IS UP FOR DOWNLOAD YAY!!!!

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December 14, 2009 10:01:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

im still missing a buff to rooks towers lategame and a slight nerf early game. also to include the fixes like tb fire while moving fix would be a good idea.

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December 14, 2009 3:11:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Do we have a group of people playtesting these?

Would love to be part of it if so.

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December 14, 2009 3:57:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think you should balance the summoned henchmen of QoT and Sedna by increasing their numbers rather than upping their power. Make the last rank of their summons summon 6 Shamblers/Yeti. This would make balancing much easier in the long run. That closer you are in total available minions for all generals, the more likely that items with henchmen bonuses will be even across the board.

Example: Items that add +5 damage to minions are much better for Oak/Erebus then for QoT/Sedna. Get their minions numbers closer together and the disparity is reduced a bit.

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