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Iteration

By on November 29, 2011 11:51:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 

Iteration is both wonderful and terrifying.  It is the place where you take delight in the designs that are working out, and weep for the designs that sounded good but aren’t.  It would be nice if I could sketch out a perfect plan, implement that plan and have an amazing game.  But it takes work.

One of our initial concerns when we started to playtest was that the game felt like War of Magic.  Despite the changes, many of which wouldn’t be really apparent until 100-200 turns in, it still had a WoM vibe to it.  My solution was to create custom quests for each sovereign to start with.  You would have to earn some of your sovereigns starting bonuses and treasures.  That way the player had a motivating objective for his first 100 turns that would get him in and playing.

It helped answer the questions of “Who am I?” and “Why am I here?”.  It gave some flavor and personality to the starting sovereigns.  And it made the starting game feel different.  I pitched the idea to the rest of the team.  We hashed out the pros and cons.  We could make it work with custom sovereigns if we tied it to their history (so if you picked Adventurer as your history you would get Relias’s starting quest).  And this solution had some limited replayability (in that you might want to play the different starting quests) but in the long term it could get redundant (off to fix the corrupted mana shards with Procipinee again…).

But the best feedback came from Brad.  I don’t recall the exact quote but it was something to the effect of, “If it feels too much like WoM don’t make superficial changes, change the game.”

That was the impetus for the change to the production system.  We didn’t like the old production system, but it was a lot of work to change.  The code changes are only a small part, the UI and rebalance challenges are considerable.  I requested an extension on the timeline and Brad approved the change.

This is the process of video game iteration, and I suspect it is the same for movies, books, and other creative endeavors.  You leave your ego behind, it will only get in the way.  You walk through fire and in the end you have a game that is so much better because of it.  Be open to change, listen to other people’s opinions and evaluate them within the specific vision of the game.  Focus on the things that matter.

I am very excited for Fallen Enchantress.  I am, of course, biased.  But it is a beautiful game and it does some things that I have never seen done in a TBS game.  But the change to the production system, random worlds, increasing the population of cities and some new features (outposts) requires work.

It's not implementation time, Stardock has an amazing team.  Implementation is only 25% of the way there.  The real focus now is in balance.  Not perfect balance, not if a short sword should do 8 or 9 damage.  But how quickly you gain research, what things modify that, how is that balanced for small empires vs large empires?  How much does a fire shard affect your fire spells?  What is the difference between a city with good production capacity and weak production capacity (and how long should it take to train a medium army in each)?

Random worlds are another big part.  I love crazy randomness, in general I'm probably too far on that extreme.  I'm amused if I start a game right next to an Ogre lair and he wipes me out on turn 4.  It's a little less funny when I'm 200 turns in and I walk into a wildland and every monster in there streams out in a civilization crushing tide of doom.  Randomness must have some control.

Unwilling to give up our random worlds we implemented controls on how close to starting spots certain things are allowed to be.  You will never start right next to a quest you can't accept (which is frustrating) or a monster that can wipe you out.  The farther out you go the more interesting it gets.  A treasure chest won't be within 8 tiles of your starting location, a Hoarder Spider won't be within 12, and if you get far enough out there you may find dragons.

But it all takes balance and we aren't ready for a public beta on it while we still know what the issues are.  We need to get those in and smoothed out, we need the game to play as it should so that when you start to play your feedback can be useful.  It doesn't mean much if you think you are too weak if we know we are going to push some monsters away from the starting area, or if you think tech comes too slowly if we are going to be raising population (which affects everything).

So I asked Brad to postpone the public beta (sorry) and he agreed.  We need time with the features set to play and tweak, to go through our games so that when you have a chance to play we are ready for the feedback you offer.

 

+68 Karma | 112 Replies
November 30, 2011 3:14:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Just an idea, but have you considered randomizing the game balance? It means every game will feel a little different, because that short sword hits just a little harder or softer, depending on which game you play.

November 30, 2011 3:47:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Savoy3,
Just an idea, but have you considered randomizing the game balance? It means every game will feel a little different, because that short sword hits just a little harder or softer, depending on which game you play.

 

Don't make me rage vomit!

 

But, instead of that being random, maybe you could specialize in certain weapons, give troops training bonuses.  Probably not going to be that deep.

November 30, 2011 4:23:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Savoy3,
Just an idea, but have you considered randomizing the game balance? It means every game will feel a little different, because that short sword hits just a little harder or softer, depending on which game you play.

 

Not really.  We do have techs that are randomly available (so if you play 3 games oyu will have a slightly different tech tree each time).  Meaning that you may be able to crafts Masterwork Short Swords in one game but not another.  And we also have a lot of randomization around what you can find in the world, so you have a big difference between a champion that finds a rusty short sword on an old battlefield and one that finds a battle axe in an equipment cache.

But there is enough to remember in this game, we wouldnt want a short sword to be better than a mace in one game and worse than a mace in another.  Makes it hard to remember and even harder to count on your designed units.

November 30, 2011 4:29:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Take your time. Make it great.

November 30, 2011 4:48:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Derek Paxton,


We do have techs that are randomly available 

 I love that not all the techs are available every game.  

 

So it's been a few hours, is the beta ready now?!?  

 

Thanks for the information, looks like FE is making good progress.   

November 30, 2011 5:14:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Skyrim just came out.

Still haven't finished half of Heroes 6.

Patch 4.3 of WoW introduced some new things I've yet to explore.

Conclusion: The game can wait. The beta can wait. *I* can wait. Take all the time you need guys. Release it when it's ready.

November 30, 2011 6:58:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I have to say that I was really looking forward to the first beta of FE. I do remember first beta of WOM and I wanted to see all the great stuff you have been working on guys. 

 

However, I hope that you will spend as much time as you need to improve, polish, and add features as needed. If you still feel like there is too much to do, and you know about all those problems which needs to be addresed first, then do it. 

 

There is no point to be flooded with feedback on all the game mechanics, if you are not happy with current implementation. As soon as you progress to more polished version I will be more then happy to send you back to the boards with all the feedback 

November 30, 2011 9:47:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

We need a /dance in FE please. The Stardock Salsa or something similar.

December 1, 2011 4:35:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Derek,

Thanks for addressing the community and giving everyone the heads up on where the game stands. ive skimmed through the replys and it seems everyone agrees that we all want a great solid game so take your time.

imho i think that FE should be the stand alone which takes the longest to make since its breaking completely away from WOM with almost all of what it entails. that being said think a bit long term in the sense the better core you make FE the less frustrations you will have for the 3rd installment in the future.

best wishes keep up the fantastic work to bring elemental series to life!

December 1, 2011 7:17:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

By the way, did anyone pay attention to the tactical battle screenshot with a rock inside the battlefield. I think this is the first time there has been an object that should theoretically block line of sight...

December 1, 2011 7:24:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I doubt there's line of sight, if that's what you're trying to imply. It was one of two main reasons they wouldn't do sieges in FE.

December 1, 2011 9:18:51 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

But it may still block movement.

December 1, 2011 9:34:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like the fact that you guys want to take as much time as you can, in game balance. There are few actual facts told from the OP, but I comment where I can.

For the Unit Detail UI, it looks good, only the left hand side look cluttered. The skills circles should move to the area where the Spells are. Use a tab interface to switch btn Spell/Skill, while it is default to Skill. Not sure why encumberance is so important that it needs extra space at the bottom; if there is no special game mechanics with it, just move it next to Spell Mastery and present it with a number.

Regarding to randomness, the topic is actual how randomness should be designed. While usually the function of randomness is to provide long term playability, but will FE requires players to make desicion base on how random things are? A good implementaion of Randomness requires a good balance between providing long term gameplay variety, vs frustation of randomness

While in OP you talked about randomization in map generation, there should be pre-game switches on how crazy things can be in individual aspect of the game, not just on map generation. I list a bunch of charactistics that can be randomized (while repeating some of what you've listed in OP):
1. initial strength/proximity of hostile roaming monsters, goodie hunts, champonions etc
2. initial difficultiy/bonus of quests
3. Long term power of wildland monster/minor fractions
4. Various Natuaral resource abundance, e.g. adjustable Oil abundances, vs adjustable earlier game horse abundance.
5. Clustering of Natuaral various resource. i.e. highly clustered world will have horses mainly at the east side, but fire shards in the west
6. Clustering of Natural disaster
7. Power and frequency of Randome events like natural disaster
8. Lifespan/power of champonians
9. How the mana/essence production rate will changes in long term
10. general population reproductivity rate, how often recruitable champonion spawn, natural mortality averate for population (champonion including)
etc, etc

Developer can setup up a 'default' randomize level for all of above so that FE feels like fantasy Middle earth most of them. And gamers can adjust however they want during RMG. And you also have a master Randomness swtich for all of above factors so that player can adjust how crazy the game can be during RMG.

Balance is very important, take your time. I just to point out that simple mathematical model should be implemented in (almost all) technology/skill/spell/stat/industrial production so that everything scales, even it reaches 1000 turn. Try to balance the (late) game via simple formulas (presented clear to player), instead of hard coding numbers.

Try, to design how the champion should scale in late game, when the amount of troops will eventually get overwhelming. What role will the champion play? Maybe more tilted towards leadership/magic than using hero for brute force melee? Try, to make sure in late game, combat does not just comes down to simple numbers. Make tactics/troop composition or rock/siccor/paper still counts in late game.

Envision how in the late game, things will look like. How things will be balanced in 2000 turns? Maybe at turn 2000, most player will be busy fighting crazy dragons or coping with volcano erupting everywhere? I am just interested if this kind of things has been thought out already.

December 1, 2011 11:39:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

With champions, if they can be killed off to prevent other factions from getting them, will new ones spawn eventually?  Or will the game simply run out of champions?  I believe the dynasty system has been removed, but why not go the other way and let champions marry and reproduce?  Even if it doesn't make sense for rulers(diplomacy and where the child ends up, etc), or can't get that to work out, then maybe marry champions of your own faction to each other and they can have kids are repopulate the champion race?

December 1, 2011 2:19:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Lord Xia,
With champions, if they can be killed off to prevent other factions from getting them, will new ones spawn eventually?  Or will the game simply run out of champions?  I believe the dynasty system has been removed, but why not go the other way and let champions marry and reproduce?  Even if it doesn't make sense for rulers(diplomacy and where the child ends up, etc), or can't get that to work out, then maybe marry champions of your own faction to each other and they can have kids are repopulate the champion race?

I hope this is something that they bring back.  Not necessarily about marry your kids off, but I hope they bring back getting married and having children.  I think it adds another layer of depth to the game.  It was one of my favorite parts of WOM.  It was fun to send them off to gain experience and watch them become more powerful, it also really sucks when they get trapped and died.  In WOM I usually don't marry them off, but I like them leading my armies, etc.  I really am not looking at marry/children issue for the dynasty/diplomacy aspect of the game.  I never thought that develped quite right.  Butting getting married and having children certainly added something to the character and the game.

 

I also still think it would be good if an enemy sovereign dies for them to take over, instead of the Empire (kingdom) collapsing.

December 1, 2011 4:44:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums
The comment of forced fixed starting missions is worrysome due to preventing repetitious content in an otherwise randomly generated game world; this would quickly be viewed as tedious and impede replayabilty unnecesarily. Harkening back to MoM the random would generation was a key component of the game design that made it so iconic to many of its fans. If you had to start each new map with a set of prescribed time consuming missions/quests, that would have been destroyed.
December 1, 2011 8:04:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In a future update (AFTER release) we could literally have a slider to let players determine how chaotic the world should be. So if you want to be plopped in to a truly randomized world, we can easily oblige.

But as it was, you guys have been with us long enough on these forums to know what would happen if some player got wiped out in the first 10 turns because there were trolls near them when they started.

Personally, from a gaming perspective, I do like the idea that the player is starting out in a shire-like environment and as they move out, the world gets pretty f'd up.

Until you play FE, you won't relaize how different the world is from WOM.  Screenshots just don't cut it there.  The world is really horrible and messed up once you get outside your comfy start. I don't even just mean monster spawns. I mean the world generation is set up in such a way that the world is...well, they blew it up. They really, finally blew it up. Damn them. Damn them all to hell.

December 1, 2011 8:06:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

And I guess they gave everyone cancer too...

December 1, 2011 8:21:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Get yer hands off my beta, ya dirty ape!

December 1, 2011 10:57:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Just noticed that Kul has the spell 'Wither' twice in the spell list on his Unit Details screen.

December 2, 2011 9:15:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like to have a 'default' 'normal' difficulty that the RMG will createa a shire-like world. Since this is the default normal, the world should looks reasonable where the balance of dark chaos and a beautiful nature will be something like 20%/80%. In this world, cosmetically it looks like most other fantasy game. And a fair chance is given to a causal player to win the game, while the player is kept on his edge all the time, from turn 0 to turn 1000. For causal player, it can be a challenging game, but never feel treated unfairly by the game. They will have fun experimenting, make a few mistakes here and there, but still acheive victory most of the games.

In the extreme end of game difficulty, the RMG will create a chaotic world that normal worldily geography rarely applies, and life is way harshier here. Even the best player will be tempted himself with load-save cheat, or regrets; because they will know in this world, they need skill to survive. Winning (against the AI), or acheving victory condition will be a real acheivement.

Or, put it another way. For RMG, a normal randomness level will be a shire-like world. As a race, Human/Fallen has a above chance of dominating the world. OTOH a choatic RMG, will skew towards the domination of the wildland tribes (i.e. monsters), humanoid (player) struggles a lot.

December 2, 2011 11:32:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If you are not careful, you can get stuck in the infinite loop of design which makes you work for years on a game without ever achieving anything. One thing I do in board game design is "Proto Rushing". I soon as I have an half working game, I make a prototype and playtest  to get feedback from the game. This prevent me from going in a direction and then taking back all my work because it actually did not work.

As for game balance, consider that it is impossible to have a perfect balance. It's normal to have power or abilities that are stronger than others as long as the variant of these powers are not too high. Sometimes the weaker powers could be more useful in certain situation.

December 2, 2011 12:14:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting larienna,
If you are not careful, you can get stuck in the infinite loop of design which makes you work for years on a game without ever achieving anything. One thing I do in board game design is "Proto Rushing". I soon as I have an half working game, I make a prototype and playtest  to get feedback from the game. This prevent me from going in a direction and then taking back all my work because it actually did not work.

As for game balance, consider that it is impossible to have a perfect balance. It's normal to have power or abilities that are stronger than others as long as the variant of these powers are not too high. Sometimes the weaker powers could be more useful in certain situation.

This not being our first game, we have some familiarity with that.

The case here, however, is that we know what we want to do with balancing and want to implement that prior to sending out a beta. Otherwise, we'd just get a ton of feedback that amounts to "Yes, we know, we're working on that".

From a polish/balance perspective, it is, in its current state, considerably further ahead of even WOM v1.4.

December 2, 2011 12:18:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I did not notice a stat for charisma in the sovereign's screenshot. Do sovereign's have a charisma rating (and this screen is a work in progress)?

December 2, 2011 12:27:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
From a polish/balance perspective, it is, in its current state, considerably further ahead of even WOM v1.4.

 

Wow! Well that is very encouraging. And more than slightly maddening as well, having to wait! LOL, but all good, the time will be well spent I'm sure.

 

 

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