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If connection problems are all fine and dandy now then why...

By on October 19, 2009 11:37:49 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If connection problems are all fine and dandy now then why is it still so rare to see 5 vs 5 and 4 vs 4 games?

 

3 vs 3 (usually on cataract) is pretty much the default setting in this game.  5 vs 5 has NEVER been a viable option in this game since the beta.

 

Why do you hardly ever get 5 vs 5 games?  Its actually not THAT hard to get a game started, but you can guarantee it will lag, and someone will then drop or ragequit very soon.  I think this is why people don't even bother trying to start games.

 

Now the developers can put the blame on people having poor connections if they want, but if the status quo is the game doesn't work properly then maybe they are the ones that need to change it.  With the game being peer to peer, it only takes 1 player to have a shit connection or PC and the game is ruined. 

 

Is this ever going to be fixed and give us confidence that 5 vs 5 is going to work?

+7 Karma | 35 Replies
October 19, 2009 1:05:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

What are you asking?

From what you're saying you want them to solve the problems of peer-to-peer. Which unless they change the entire game make-up, which they aren't going to, problems will still persist to some degree

As it is the DG team are working to improve the game. They know they are some slight connection problems and I believe they are working on it

October 19, 2009 1:11:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I can only ever play 3v3,  If I go 4v4 or higher I start to lag.  I have the middle teir of service from my isp.  It's amusing that the stance they took is to blame their users connections.  If I bought a car and they told it kept breaking down because I was a poor driver.. lol.     It has something to do with the amount of outbound connections the demigod wants to make, on my bandwidth monitor I can see my upload speed spike to 90k/sec then back down to 19k/sec   this happens over and over, when it gets to 90k/sec upload it saturates my connection and just lags it out.

I recently moved, and had a different isp, and I actually paid less and had a lower teir, but I could play 5v5. 

October 19, 2009 1:21:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Its pretty obvious what I'm asking, and anyone who wasn't a shill for the devs would see it as a pretty reasonable question.

 

Before the beta we were told this game was specifically being designed for 5 vs 5 gameplay.  So do the devs have a strategy for making 5 vs 5 a viable option online or are we just going to stick to the status quo for the rest of the game's life?

October 19, 2009 1:23:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting fist,
I can only ever play 3v3,  If I go 4v4 or higher I start to lag.  I have the middle teir of service from my isp.  It's amusing that the stance they took is to blame their users connections.  If I bought a car and they told it kept breaking down because I was a poor driver.. lol.     It has something to do with the amount of outbound connections the demigod wants to make, on my bandwidth monitor I can see my upload speed spike to 90k/sec then back down to 19k/sec   this happens over and over, when it gets to 90k/sec upload it saturates my connection and just lags it out.

I recently moved, and had a different isp, and I actually paid less and had a lower teir, but I could play 5v5. 

 

Sounds like the issue was the substandard service provided by your previous ISP, along with the choice of p2p by gpg.  P2P is very common in all RTS games, but most RTS games are not 5v5.  Clearly the choice has limitations, everyone including SD will aknowledge that.  The only people they "blame" are those that flame SD that they can't get 5v5 working on a 56k connection.  Sometimes problem is with multiple parties, your ISP and GPG.

October 19, 2009 1:37:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yes, the peer2peer system coupled with big games(5vs5) means that someone has practically bound to lag. Really you need some players you know together. It's usually bad connection of the player though. Upload speed is prolly the problem.

October 19, 2009 1:54:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Five vs. Five pug games are a problem because people do not know their connection and sim speed limitations.  Add on to that the fact that pugs have less patience and you get rage quits and drops.

5v5 still works, though - among decent connections and computers.  This in and of itself is definitely not Stardock or Gas Powered Games' fault.  

Now the lack of a player's ability to see who will drop/disconnect/quit did hurt 5v5, but that is being worked out.

October 19, 2009 3:00:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I've played my fair share of no-lag 4v4 games (and only a couple of 5v5). If everyone would just open their ports and stick to game sizes that both their bandwidth and CPUs can handle, then no one would complain about laggy 4v4 or 5v5 games. As it is, 3v3 is a good size for the average computer, so that is why it is most commonly seen.

October 19, 2009 8:42:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Normally 5v5s lag because of one of two reasons.

A) A player's computer can't handle the large map size and extra data and visuals needing to be processed, aka they suffer from poor sim speed and the game runs at the slowest sim speed.

A player's internet connection is not up to par to handle all the connections a 5v5 requires. Even if they have a fast connection it doesn't mean they have all the connection requirements of upload and download rates. If they can't upload the games information fast enough they induce lag into their games.

The larger the game with PUGs the greater the chance that one of these will happen.

October 20, 2009 6:31:58 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Its not Stardock fault, but the users.

 I am on DSL, and I know I can not do 5v5, becase of MY connection.  It is a user issue, not a game issue.

Blaming Stardock/GPG at this point becasue you connection cant handle a 5v5  is like saying the maker of Crysis did the game all wrong becasue your POS computer cant play it with everything set to max.

October 20, 2009 7:45:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree with Tperge.

October 20, 2009 8:24:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Honestly, I don't *want* to play more than 3v3 most of the time. 4v4 is the max, and I do it fine.  I think people don't play 5v5's because it increases the random factor too much, and the big maps aren't necessarily better than small ones.

 

Oh, and everyone just wants to play cataract.

October 20, 2009 8:39:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

"Blaming Stardock/GPG at this point becasue you connection cant handle a 5v5  is like saying the maker of Crysis did the game all wrong becasue your POS computer cant play it with everything seto max."

Guess what retard, I'm certain my computer and internet connection are way better than yours.  I also know I am more physically attractive and more successful in life than you are.

The point (as has already been stated numerous times) is that if one person has a connection or a system that lags or slows down everyone in the game is affected, thereby making 5 vs 5 almost impossible to play well.  If you'd bothered to read the thread or had even a basic understanding of P2P then you would have realised this already and wouldn't have sounded off.

"Oh, and everyone just wants to play cataract."

Yeah, because they know if they try and play anything any bigger they will get a crappy game due to lag.

October 20, 2009 8:42:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Another analogy is that this game is like a collective punishment.   One person has a crappy connection, everyone in the game pays the price. 

October 20, 2009 8:48:20 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

 

GnomeChomp,

I posted this to another thread where the issue was/is latency spikes in larger games.....so I'll just quote myself again....

If I had to hazard a "guess", I'd say "latency spikes" (when in relation to P2P-gaming) often have something to do with certain hardware not being able to handle multiple concurrent connections properly.  Some hardware doesn't initiate and/or track them correctly and some hardware isn't able to close and reopen them fast enough.

The above can be due to an actual hardware limitation (shitty consumer-model routers, home-hubs etc.), or being limited by an ISP's particular firmware on said hardware (ISP supplied modems and/or home-hubs).

The best thing those of you with issues can do, is to provide Stardock with the make/model of each piece of hardware in your network map (ie. modem >> router >> etc.) including firmware versions so that some sort of "pattern" might be possible to detect.

 

thanks,

the Monk

 

These days issues are more often than not related to any of the myriad of hardware between the user's PC and their ISP rather than game-related.   Having a "good internet connection speed and a good computer system" is only the tip of the iceberg.  I believe that might have been the point tperge might have been alluding to.

-- monk out!

October 20, 2009 9:06:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You people seem to be unable to grasp that my gear is fine, the point is it only takes one other person in my game with poor hardware that will ruin the experience for me.

October 20, 2009 9:30:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting GnomeChomp,

Guess what retard, I'm certain my computer and internet connection are way better than yours.  I also know I am more physically attractive and more successful in life than you are.

The point (as has already been stated numerous times) is that if one person has a connection or a system that lags or slows down everyone in the game is affected, thereby making 5 vs 5 almost impossible to play well.  If you'd bothered to read the thread or had even a basic understanding of P2P then you would have realised this already and wouldn't have sounded off.

"Oh, and everyone just wants to play cataract."

Yeah, because they know if they try and play anything any bigger they will get a crappy game due to lag.

Thanks for the personal attacks. 

I am not saying that one person in a 5v5 can't ruin the game, I am saying that is a USER issue, not a game issue.  The game is p2p to keep latancy low.  There really is not a better alternative. 

I dont know why you went after me. In the op you say:

If connection problems are all fine and dandy now then why is it still so rare to see 5 vs 5 and 4 vs 4 games?

 Ummm Because some USER setups are not capable of handleing it. As to why you dont see them, I play 4v4 fairly often myself.  I really dont think many wish to play 5v5 to be honest.

3 vs 3 (usually on cataract) is pretty much the default setting in this game.  5 vs 5 has NEVER been a viable option in this game since the beta.

 Why has it not been viable? Any 10 people with good hardware and connections can do 5v5 easily.

Why do you hardly ever get 5 vs 5 games?  Its actually not THAT hard to get a game started, but you can guarantee it will lag, and someone will then drop or ragequit very soon.  I think this is why people don't even bother trying to start games.

Why is it sure to lag? Again, any 10 people with acceptable connections/hardware can play 5v5. 

Now the developers can put the blame on people having poor connections if they want, but if the status quo is the game doesn't work properly then maybe they are the ones that need to change it.  With the game being peer to peer, it only takes 1 player to have a shit connection or PC and the game is ruined. 

 Please explain again how the GAME does not work propery.  5v5 works fine, and the GAME can handle it no problem.  Yes it is P2P so that the latency is lower. Yes 1 person can ruin the game if the USER has hardware or a connection that does not meet the minimum requirements.  This can happen in a 1v1 game, not just 5v5.

Is this ever going to be fixed and give us confidence that 5 vs 5 is going to work?

What needs fixed?  The netcode was shit to begin with, but that was adressed.  As it stands the only limit to the preformance of this game is on the USER end.  Are you suggesting Stardock and GPG pay for people to buy new hardware and subscribe to faster connections? And while their at it should they set them up for them too?

Look there is proof I read your OP, and look its basically what I said earlier "gasp".  If you have something constructive to say, please do.  But at least make it about the topic, as you wont win this with an ad hominem argument.

October 20, 2009 9:43:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

im just gonna ask this question because im completely illiterate when it comes to these things.

 

so in demigod the option is there for 5v5 (10 people) yet i will never be able to play a 5v5 or 4v4 (maybe coz of my connection).

BUT i am able to play guild wars, instanced with 24 people in total playing an AB match with no problem watsoever and most of the time is playing with americans (i live in australia).

now why is that?

October 20, 2009 10:03:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Since this thread is close to devolving, let's get things back on track.

Firstly, most games utilise a Client/Server connection system. If you have a bad connection to the Server, only you're game is affected, although you may appear to 'Warp' to the other people connected to the server due to the infrequent information refreshes. This is because everyone uploads information to the Server, and the Server downloads information to everyone else, resulting in a single connection being established and maintained. You're not connected to the other people directly, rather indirectly.

Demigod uses Peer to Peer connection system (p2p), where there is no Server. Everyone connects to everyone else, both uploading and downloading informaton to each person and creating a new connection for each person in the game. For example, in a 3v3 you actually have 5 connections running at the same time. This increases the upload requirement, which is where the problem occurs, of the game roughly five times compared to a client server game - although is by no means a rule, just an approximation for the purposes of this discussion. You're actually directly connected to everyone else in the game, rather than indirectly. This elimates cheating through 3rd party manipulation entirely and removes the reliance on servers - Demigod will still be able to be played in 150 years from now, literally, while games like Counter-Strik will be useless if there severs are ever closed down.

As a result of this P2P connection system, the requirements for the internet connection needed to have a stable 5v5 game are increased above what is normally required. Now, while games like Warcraft 3 use p2p - as do most RTS games on the market - they piggy back on connection networks, like Battle.net, which actually connect for people who are going to cause problems. Using this network, the total connections is lowered thus enabling people with slower connections to be able to play larger games because the connection situation closely resembles a Client/Server system. Why doesn't Demigod use something like this? Because one wasn't available at the time the game was coded together, and so a 3rd party solution was used - which simply fell apart at launch, which is why Stardock created their own service in two weeks - and believe me, this is something that would normally take the better part of six months to put together - and why the game now functions better.

If you're connection is sufficent - and I doubt many people here who claim to have such connections actually do as the upload requirements for this command are astronomical - you're able to use a console command to enable yourself to become a server-of-sorts and Proxy everyone through yourself, creating Lag-free games with as many people as your connection can handle. This is built into the service and works quite well, as long as you have the appropriate connection.

There is no issue with Demigod, it's connection service or it's Netcode. If you're connection is unable to handle 4v4 and 5v5 matches, the problem is yours and only you can fix it by upgrading your internet connection. For me, this is not an option in my area, and so I continue to play 3v3 games, which is perfectly acceptable to me.

Quoting GnomeChomp,
You people seem to be unable to grasp that my gear is fine, the point is it only takes one other person in my game with poor hardware that will ruin the experience for me.


Then use the forums to locate other people to play with who have sufficent connections, rather than bitching and moaning and insulting other people. If you join one of those games, and you still experience lag, then the problem isn't everyone else; it's you.

October 20, 2009 10:59:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Zeldon that you for that explanation , but I would like to add one thing on the difference between p2p and server client.

 

In a FPS game (server/client), you only have one connection to the server as does anyone else.  So you are uploading and downloading infromation from the server.  It appears to be lag free if you have good latency to the server, and you upload/download bandwith are sufficent. 

The one thing missing from that explanation is that the server is also able to resolve things such as hits/misses. A server lcient system actually has more latency than a direct connection but becasue the the server is able to resolve outcomes, its not a huge deal.

In p2p the bandwith requirememtns are much higher because you have anywhere from 1 to 9 connections.  This type of connection reduces latency between players as there is no server acting as a go between.  This should allow for better micro, but as a result each computer individual calculates outcomes and they must all match.

There is no use arguing which is better as they each have their uses for different situations. For Demigod P2P is a better choice overall. The downside to it is mainly that it is limited on the users setup.

Oh and for those wondering what is need in term of Bandwith check out this old thread.  The numbers are high, as they reduced the amount of bandwith needed since this thread, but it is still a decent reference. https://forums.demigodthegame.com/353556

October 21, 2009 7:04:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZehDon,

If you're connection is sufficent - and I doubt many people here who claim to have such connections actually do as the upload requirements for this command are astronomical - you're able to use a console command to enable yourself to become a server-of-sorts and Proxy everyone through yourself, creating Lag-free games with as many people as your connection can handle. This is built into the service and works quite well, as long as you have the appropriate connection.

There is no issue with Demigod, it's connection service or it's Netcode. If you're connection is unable to handle 4v4 and 5v5 matches, the problem is yours and only you can fix it by upgrading your internet connection. For me, this is not an option in my area, and so I continue to play 3v3 games, which is perfectly acceptable to me.

Since it sounds like you have an idea.  What are the bandwidth requirments for this game?  I've looked around but did not find any.  Honestly if it's an absurd amount it should be listed with the other pc requirments.  Out of curiosity I ran a speed test on my connection 7.68 Mb/s down and 0.77 Mb/s upload. 75k/sec is to low! 

I think I tend to agree it's a hardware thing, possibly my modem or I do just have a standard issue linksys router from best buy.

*edit just seen tperge's post. this thread https://forums.demigodthegame.com/353556  I easily have that amount of bandwidth, in fact I have nearly 3x what is necessary.   I can only conclude it's a hard ware issue.  Wonder if it could be my actual network adapter on my computer.. I'll update some drivers I guess.

*edit again. Was thinking about it as I mentioned above I moved and changed ISPs and had no problems previously.  I had the same router so that can't be the issue.  The two things that have changed are the modem from ISP and I'm using the windows seven beta.   I will be getting the new win 7 when its released, and I dont know what to do about the modem really.. ISPs care if you change your modem with a third party one?

October 21, 2009 7:26:33 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting tperge,
Its not Stardock fault, but the users.

 I am on DSL, and I know I can not do 5v5, becase of MY connection.  It is a user issue, not a game issue.

Blaming Stardock/GPG at this point becasue you connection cant handle a 5v5  is like saying the maker of Crysis did the game all wrong becasue your POS computer cant play it with everything set to max.

i dont agree as the 1. the amount of upload needed is controlled by the developers and the needed limit is definitly not acheived! 2. if you watch the traffic DG produces then you should see that even the lowest DSL offers satisfy the needed upload/download badnwidth.

BUT, in some cases it is indeed a problem related to the connection route of two players as there are somtimes problems along it. for this cases they implemented the possibility to proxy (over a server or a player). but this has not be done right.

why i assume it has not be done right? because again the needed bandwidth is not high enough to cause such problems. you can compare it with older rts games.

 

don't mess things up! there games where you observe nearly no fluent game moments. here there maybe bandwidth problems. but on most games you observe a bigger lag only every (say) 5-10 seconds and sometimes a stuttering. here we face different problems

 

to shorten it up. of course there are problems related to connecting different palyers over the world wide internet. that's nothing new. the problem here is not the p2p system itself but that there has not been used the many possiblities to counter the mentioned problems still using a p2p architecture. there are others that already demonstrated this can be done far better.

October 21, 2009 9:01:27 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If there was an ingame overlay (hint hint) which would show the users how good their computer and internet connection can handle a match, then it would be the users' fault for ignoring this information and making the match lag.

Imho it was a big design fault at GPG to not describe the real game requirements so that everyone understands them:

  • minimal XX kb/sec Download and XX kb/sec Upload (for 1vs1, 2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4, 5vs5)
  • minimal CPU requirements for each map (sim speed depends mostly on number of portals and size of map, because it is determined by pathfinding of reinforcements which runs on the CPU; graphics can always be lowered)
October 21, 2009 10:26:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

you know that i hat some 3vs3 games where all pings where <90ms, all players had broadband connections with upload of at least 1mbit (which is by far more than the traffic generated by dg in a 5vs5 match), none were proxied, and we still got lagging and stuttering?

btw. simspeed was over 5 for all players (but low simspeed does not produce lagging anyway, it simply slows theg amespeed down).

 

but netherless, you are right. scuh an overlay may reduce at least the cases that are indeed "players fault" (i hate this expression as in fact it is not the players/users fault).

October 21, 2009 4:20:15 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It may very well be the users fault however the games inability to highlight the offending users or even warn prior to game start really is a huge detriment to the game being enjoyable. I also wish there was a vote for a draw - Out of 6 games over the last day I have lost 5 won 1, 3 of those were concede on our side due to lag, one win was the other side and 2 genuine losses.

 

Tals

October 21, 2009 4:46:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting gkrit,
im just gonna ask this question because im completely illiterate when it comes to these things.

 

so in demigod the option is there for 5v5 (10 people) yet i will never be able to play a 5v5 or 4v4 (maybe coz of my connection).

BUT i am able to play guild wars, instanced with 24 people in total playing an AB match with no problem watsoever and most of the time is playing with americans (i live in australia).

now why is that?

Guild Wars has a remote server you are connecting to, that is doing most of the work. A lot of the work in a game is doing things like computing movement paths, ai decisions, and running the algorithms that update the game state Almost none of this is done on your machine.

All your computer does is Render the graphics, and get state updates from the server.  Consider the difference between the amount of work it takes to write a well thought out and persuasive essay, as opposed to just reading that essay.  Writing could take hours of work, while reading it is only a couple of minutes.  Guild wars has you just reading, while the server does all the writing.

In Demigod, however, the game state is actually synched up, and more of the information is being run on various computers.  The host machine is still responsible for more than the rest however, is it still runs things like grunt AI's. However you are in charge of far more than when you connect to a GW server.

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