The "Generals" Discussion 2.0

All things Generals, Development and Discussion

By OrleanKnight on December 22, 2008 6:04:49 PM from

The "Generals" Discussion 2.0

Since Beta 1, we've been dealing with Assassins and we know them and love them for what they are. The introduction of Beta 2 brought a new side of the game into the light, Generals, and though we know they are far from finished this thread has been erected as a staple to help them grow into becoming something fun and unique to play. Join our discussion, express your ideas, and remember one fact when considering feedback:

Important Notes

* Consider how Generals can become more unique, within the bounds of what is already existing in the game of course.

* This is not the first thread of its kind, the original thread is found here: Demigod Journals: Generals

* Please provide clear feedback, following these guidelines:

- Title your ideas.

- List them in short, concise bullet points.

- Give details, in order, well below the list of bullet points.

- DO NOT quote other people's ideas in full length and type: "I agree"

- DO NOT quote other people line by line to "break down" their arguements.

Current List of Generals

Some Materials for this list originated from this thread: General Generals

For more details on each General, pleaese visit link provided above.

Oak

Lord Erebus

Sedna

Queen of Thorns

Primary Concerns from Community

Generals are, at present, nothing more than Assassins with the option of additional units.
Plays exactly like an Assassin.
Can do everything an Assassin can, but thensome.
Doesn't even remotely feel like an RTS element.

There is a lot of feedback from the community again Generals, this is why I'd like to make this thread more of the focus of that dicussion. In order to start things off on the right direction, I'll provide my feedback here as an example of the guidelines I've listed above. Thank you for your cooperation in this effort to expand upon the game in this open form of communication between community and development.

~ Orlean Knight

Suggestion: Generals and Assassins play 100% Differently

Right now, my largest concern with Generals, even though they are a new element that is far from complete, is that they share too many things in common with an Assassin. I feel that they should play very differently, and get rewarded in different ways. Assassins should play very differently from Generals, and in essense be almost two different games. Complicated indeed, but I think I have some ideas that may get things moving into that "gereral" direction.

Overview:

Things I feel that are WRONG with Generals

Generals hold their own against Assassins.
Generals have to enter the battle and lead their minions.
Generals can not develop or adjust their minions.
Minions are not a General's real strength.
Generals can wear equipment.
Generals have combat abilities to battle against Assassins.
Generals have no unique form of income.

Things I feel Generals MAY resolve these issues

Generals should be no stronger an Giants.
Generals can command and control their presence throughout the field, without leaving the base.
Generals can upgrade and adjust their minions attributes like the Citadel.
Minion's are the General's presense on the field.
Instead of Equipment, the Shop has sections for Generals to develope thier Minions.
Generals should have abilities which focus on healing and buffing grunts and minions and maybe area attacks.
Generals can earn gold to Upgrade Citadel, but a General's power pool could be generated from the death of mindless grunts.

Breakdown:

When I think of a General, I think of a miliatry tactition who doesn't stick their neck out in the face of combat. Instead, they focus on amasing strength in numbers of having youthful muscle run out and do all the fighting for them. A general shouldn't leave the base, and if they do it should be for two reasons:

The enemy is breaking into the base, and more defense is needed on the front lines.
Your team is pushing hard on the base and they need an outpost to keep the push going.

A General should symbolize the measure of your war effort, and can have a lot of power when it comes to the direction and motivation of units on the field. Like in most RTS games, the General is the player themselves, the mouse pointer and the screen. The physical form of the General should only be a means in which to halt a player's command of an army for a duration of time. Making them a target which sits safely inside of the base behind defenses.

Unlike the Assassin, the General should use minions alone to try and take down enemy Demigods. Their Minions alone are their strength, and their only real physical fighting power. They can develop minions in the base using the shop as seen below:

Image Explaination:

This modified General Shop shows several unit types on the left that a General can summon via the Star Icon.
Selecting a unit shows upgrades for that unit type alone. Allowing you to increase armor and damage for choice units based on your play style.
The skull is an additional upgrade which adds effects to units on death. Making Assassins think twice before killing your minions.
The blue icon at the top is an idea, it represents Souls that Generals can collect and invest into upgrades.

Souls

This is an idea I have, I'd like to know what others think. But I feel there needs to be a proxy for the General on the field, and I feel that could be in the form of a Soul Reaper. This unit is the only thing I can think of that would actually be something 'new' that the artists would have to generate, so therefore it makes the suggestion questionable. But even so, I'll illustrate the idea as best as I can so help others judge whether or not something like this is a good idea or not.

Soul Reaper

This proxy can be a critical unit which, like the Oak's ward, can draw in souls from units that die near it. These souls can then be utilized by the Generals back the base to invest into various unit upgrades. These Soul Reapers become a prime target for shutting out the production of a General's units, and also makes them very precious for the General to keep alive. I would imagine they wouldn't be able to defend themselves, but instead have a good sum of HP to absorb some damage, and they protentially even be upgraded. This idea is variable, I just felt it'd be interesting and different.

Experience Points and Abilities

Well if a General is not in combat, how would they accquire experience to develop their abilities? This question could be answered with the soul idea listed above, but just incase no one takes interest into that idea - there would need to be a sound alternative. I feel the minions under a General's control could be able to amass experience points just like other Assassins. When they kill something or capture something, that experience is transferred into the General who can gain levels and put points into developing abilities that heal and buff their minions and grunts. Also, potentially Area Damage skills can be used as well to frighten off Assassins who try to hinder your army's movements.

Protection spells seems like very good alternative to attacks, such as putting up a shield against the Torch Bearer's Rain of Ice for instance. A high level Rain of Ice can sunder a whole army, but if a shield is thrown up to cushion the blow, the General's army can still push on and lead the charge. These abilities can be cast anywhere within a minion's range and proximity as the General remains in the base.

Fortifications and Outposts

Another idea that would make Generals interesting would be to turn them into physcial outposts, think The Queen of Thorns taking root and opening her bud. She is underguard by her Honor-Guard while in this mode, these units can be deployed by her and are seperate from her minions that she produced back at the base. This mode leaves the General very vulnerable, but can become a big help to a team on the move. Because a General can then spawn units from their location to quickly aid in the battle, furthemore magical orbs can appear which can be remote links to the Shop and the Citadel for friendly Demigods to use so they don't have to run all the way back the base and keep the forward push strong.

I would also image a General in this state can emit an aura the increases the defense of Towers of Light, making them a suitable defensive line against Grunts.

Death of a General

A General's demise should not spell the end of his/her units. Instead, they will no longer have a leader to command them. Minions in this state can go "rogue", attacking anything and everything in thier proximity, even friendly Demigods. This should make Generals think twice about leaving the base and making themselves vulnerable to attack. Once a General comes back to life, they'll regain control over whatever survivers are left of their once proud army.

Unit Flexibility

Aside from just be able to purchase units and upgrade them, Generals should be able to choose from a wide range of different types of units, including Angels and Giants, which will allow them to make an army more tuned to their play style. If they want slow, lumbering tanks on the field - allow them to summon Giants early on, but of course restrick their numbers. I'd like to see many different units, allowing for Generals to make an army they really can call their own, and plays the way they want to.

And that to me, is what I feel a Genral should be about. Any questions? ^^

+70 Karma | 183 Replies

question wouldn't they have to do a total makeover to Oak and erebus
Generals should be able to fight aside their units which some generals in real life do or did( example Alexander the great rode besides men making them alot better)
I think the generals should maybe do less damage so they can still take the same damage but can't dish out as much
I beleive that generals should maybe only 2 slots for ordinary items
Generals should have idols i think that can summon giants, cats, and angels too.
I beleive units should upgrade with the general
This means when at max level all his units are stonger than ordinary ones but at level 1 their weaker
more expensive idols dodn't get upped as much when he levels up so giants can't be rigged
I think instead of soul idea they could do each time u level up u also get something else that can be used to up units or what i said earlier because soul would just make more micromanagement
Generals units should be easier controlled and go ahead of general
When a general does good i think it would be neat if all nearvy units started doing better

Considering Oak and Eredus are basically just Assassins, a complete makeover for them wouldn't be a bad thing. ^^

I think that Generals simply need to be weakened significantly - half of their current strength or even weaker - and their minions need to increase in number. Generals should be able to stay on their side of the map, maybe fighting a little under the protection of the towers but not really attacking anything themselves except basic creeps like minotaurs and archers. They would have spells related to unit summoning, controlling units, and auras with maybe one offensive spell. They should be able to summon many units and should be able to upgrade them more than Assassins (Assassins should have fewer citadel upgrades). Their units would be able to attack on multiple fronts or work together, but they should be the main force, not the General himself. On death the units should steadily lose health and act like portal creeps until death. Also, Generals should be able to reach through the computer screen and slap people who try to over-formalize forums with pointless rules, like asking for titles, bullet points, and requesting that people not address separate parts of an argument. Everyone here is beyond 1st grade and able to read paragraphs.

To OrleanKnight

I disagree wholeheartedly in your idea of the generals. While I do believe that right now they are very powerful, I also feel that they are heading in the right direction. Some points:

I do feel that Generals should be more based around their units, but not completely. This would make them too easy targets for any half decent regulus. Generals should not be so weak that they fear being in combat at all, but they should be significantly less powerful without their units around them, something that I believe you are in a similar mindset with.
Unique units for each general are definitely preferable, but I am not against the way they have it now. This will save untold amounts of time on modeling, designing, and animating of the units. Not to mention the fact that it is strategically sound to target things like the clerics first, as they can draw out a battle with the generals exponentially. Having to learn the specific units of each general is asking too much in my eyes, and is just another roadblock for people to learn the game. I think that keeping them the same makes it easier to strategize against the generals, and assasins need all the help they can get at this moment in time.
THe thought that generals should not be able to wear armor is not repellant to me, but i think no armor or items at all is asking a bit much. The game relies very strongly on armor for things like mana amount/regen, which are critical to any hero. I would agree that the items generals have available should be limited, so as to ensure that the general archetype is upheld, but removing items from them completely makes their end-game builds very limited.

Do not forget I didn't mention Favor or Achievements, those too can be used to deisgn a more custom build. I didn't really ask for new unique units for each Demigod, no. They already have them, their models and animations exist as it is - no new art would need to be created. Aside from the soul suggestion of course.

Giving players greater control over the attributes of each units allow a player to customize their army more to their liking, and also skill trees and abilities would still exist, just more aimed at supporting units and not killing Demigods.

My main points I would change for Generals:

Give Generals a seperate gear set. Make the items cheaper, less powerful versions of Assassin's gear. This lets Generals more easily afford gear, minions and upgrades. This also lets the Generals change their power relitive to other generals rather then with the Assassins
Less direct abilities, more indirect abilities. Oak's AoE heal is GREAT example, and so is Surge of Faith.
Lessen Generals power significantly. I shouldnt be able to play like I do. (I play Oak without any minions and it works out MUCH better)
Not really General related, but I think speed enhancements need to be changed drastically. I think Generals should be in big trouble if an Assassin catches them, but with the speed buffs ATM, that would make Generals just meat.
More diverse minions. I love the archers and priests, but more variety would make it feel a LOT more like an RTS. I'd like the game to act like an RTS where I'm commanding minions all around the map, not just moving a mass with my Demigod.

Thats what I feel needs to happen.

I don't think Generals should only use minions to take down another DG. I like that the focus should shift a little from the general to the minions, but not by that much. The General should still be on the field, boosting his minions.

Something you didn't mention at all was the batch summoning Generals have to go through to get their minions. If you die as a General and respawn, you summon half your max forces at the start, effectively beginning with a lower attack power than if you had been an Assassin. This may need a little looking at, but then again, it isn't game-breaking, so maybe it's not an issue. To get your max minion count relies on keeping your minions alive, which I think is a good thing.

At the moment, you upgrade your summoned minions by buying better idols which depends on gold, whereas for your special minions, upgrades are obtained via skills. I think if skills affected your summoned minions to some extent, that would be a nice way to shift the focus of the General to his minions without ripping him from the battle.

I strongly disagree. Generals are heading in the right direction and only need a few changes IMO.

Generals should be weakened and focus more on group buffing and auras for their units.
Much more unit customization and types.
A generals strength sould be his units and how he uses them
In order to win one on one against an assassin they should need to micro all of thei units well and use abilites accordingly.

The main thing is giving the general more units with differing abilites.

Every general should have 3 unique units that would replace the current generic units
- A Melee unit, a ranged unit and a support unit. Melee could be a tank role or a fast attack high DPS role depending on the general
Generals should also have their current units as special units and a elite type should be added. Elite units could be gained from killing an enemy demigod or something else.

In short generals need more units. This generic stuff and only one unique unit just isn't going to cut it.

I dodn't think they need new units and that many changes dodn't need to be made

demigods damage decreased so they can survive attacks from opposing assasins but can't do much on the side of damage
their units should get better when they do so when your level 25 your minions will be pretty tough so DG's can't use 1 spell to kill them
generals weaker version of assasins equipment or only 2 piecs of it and upgrading citadels for generals is alittle less
generals should be able to get idols that summon cats, angels, and giants how ever all summon units start weaker than normal units but after general levels they become stonger than their normal versions

Oak's spells can stay and some of erebus's can stay too. this will make it so the devs will only have to make some tweaks not complete makeovers.

What you guys need to remember is that the promise from GPG how Generals would have a completely different playstyle from Assassins, comparing it from a Real Time Strategy game to an Action RPG game. That is a huge difference in gameplay style... HUGE, and right now there in almost NO difference in playstyle between them. Just because some of you enjoy the overpowered Generals at the moment because they feel like buffed up Assassins does not mean that GPG should mislead the entire community and leave the 2 classes how they are now.

An overhaul or at least Major change of the Generals is completely necessary, not only for the fact that they play exactly like an Action RPG style character, but also because they are so far away from the scope of the Generals class that it isn't funny. Saying things like "yeah Generals are fine now just give them less damage" is completely obsurd, please inform me to how Supreme Commander is anything like Diablo 2. Also note that it doesn't matter to me if they want to make every Demigod play like an Assassin, that would make the Pre-Dota community happy, but that is not what was promised for the game.

We are here to assist the developers into creating the game that they have planned for, and the game that we wanted to play when we read all the previews/interviews. Right now this is not the game, the developers need our help to turn it back onto the right track, not just ignoring the current problems with the gameplay and cultivating it because it suit's your individual vision on what the game should be. We are volunteer workers for GPG/Stardock. If the game is starting to run off the tracks it is our job to put it back on.

- Evanescent

when i say less damage I mean a fraction of what they had. Like mlets says they did 500 now they do 100. U arn't going to kill anything on a decent level doing a 100 damage a hit
also your supposed to talk in bullets
They also sad they couldn't make huge changes because its getting closer to release date so we need to provide ideas that won't require alot of testing money and work
Oak currently has many general like moves such as his heal move, sheild, surge of faith, and his spirit ward. Those are fine how they are which is good
Erebus's bat move thing, thing to spawn his minis, the spell that ups his minis, and mass stun can stay for they are general like
Now dodn't come here saying demigod is going totally off track with demigods with out giving examples
Also i think generals upped stats should up their minis instead, that might work
So u see now they only have to change 2 abilities with each general thats not that much
finally they did not say generals would be totally differnt than assins but that assasins would be more like an hero or style forget which one. So they have some easy to fix changes and i think generals would be alot differn

Soccer.. no one is supposed to talk in bullets. Talking in bullets shows you didn't read my thread. >.>

my bad miss read the sentance for using clear concise bullet points for actually using bullet points my bad.

Quoting Soccer194,

reply 11

Now dodn't come here saying demigod is going totally off track with demigods with out giving examples

Sorry i believe i did give examples but perhaps you did not clearly distinguish them as i did not speak in bullets.
I hope this post is more easier for you to understand

- Evanescent

How can we make the generals feel more like a general and less like an assassin with canon fodder:

Have the special minion for each general meaningful. Some should have more weaker minions. Others should have 1 or 2 powerful ones.
Give the minions abilities - Maybe have something like a decay for the oaks spirits which does a hp degen aura. Anything to make the minons feel more than just fodder. If you want to get more RTS like give abilities to the minions so you have more micro and less mindless spam.
Generals should be far more squishy and rely on the strengh of their minions and abilities to enhance them not just summon them.

Generals should be played like RTS, that's Demigod. RTS vs RPG.

You have to ask: do you like Oak's style of play or General's style of play ?
I like Oak (abilties, style), but his gameplay is not an RTS Gameplay.

I want to have the choice between a powerfull killer and strategic game. So, i agree with OrleansKnight except for general stay in base.

Idea of comparison with Supcom

Creep are : T1 T2 T3
General are : Commander (build base, upgrade factory, build unit, and DO BATTLE )

Assassin are super experimental commander.

This way General could help and have fun in battle with their units while assassin are playing coop hack and slash.

All I want is to be able to have units I'm commanding all over the field. The General should obviously boost nearby troops considerably, but not directly.

I'm still REALLY in favor of a completly seperate item set for Generals.

My ideas:

(Generals should be Strategic units, not battle units)

1) Generals should NOT be so easy to kill, especially snipe.

2) Generals should be just as weak to focused DG fire from fireball, snipe, and boulder as assassins are.

3) Generals should be in the field, but not on the front lines.

4) Generals should never be able to solo an assassin even with uber items. However a general's items should be different in that it focueses on their minions.

5) Generals should "build" and generate revenue. They should be able to re-build defences and destroy enemy defences for revenue (no last hit money, but definately get a cut based on % damage dealt with healed hp reducing the slices).

6) Generals need currency other than gold to do "general's stuff". They generate this currency, and they spend it on minions. And these minions should be more than just a push over where a tourch bearer just does one AOE and every minion just drops dead after all that work.

7) Generals should have to upgrade their minions, not buy the most powerful ones right away. To upgrade the generals need to generate this "generals revenue" and enough of it to upgrade.

8) Generals should have the ability to play defencively unlike the assassins who play offencively. The assassins will depend on generals to keep them alive. To heal them, regen their mana, protect them from heavy damage. And generals on both sides will have to use their assassin allies as key minions which they keep a close watch on and assist heavily.

9) Key note is: Generals are not the front-lines attack units, they have units but their strength is keeping assassins alive with unit support, heals, and defencive plays. When kill gold is calculated, a general should be rewarded heavily for healing the assassins who killed the enemy, stoping the enemy from running, and stoping enemy generals from handicapping their allied assassins just as assassins are rewarded for bashing DGs in the head with giant hammers, pointy arrows.

10) Generals can send out their minions on long-range attacks, however a general should have an aura (5 actually) each range of the aura means a boost to minion abilities. Close range = strongest, long range = weakest, outside = base minion stats, no perks whatsoever.

The generals can send minions far, but minions going far means they are at 1/6 total strength so they can do something, but not nearly as much! However by exposing himself, the general will strengthen his army and apply close-range perks as abilities to his minions turning them from killer dogs to killer rabbits (and if you dare go near a killer rabbit, well lets just say many of king arthur's men died trying).

11) Assassins need to rely more on generals then super mana-regen items. Items should be useful, but they should not be so strong. The main lifeline of the assassin is the general. While the general can't deal damage, the assassin will deplete his mana and hp quickly without assistance.

12) Creeps and general's minions need to be significantly stronger. Demigods are strong but not that strong. They need to rely on team strength vs individual strength to win even against creeps. Of course the smaller the team the weaker the grunts (or less of them) depending on the # of spawns (so prison map with 5v5 there should be a fuckload of grunts on both sides to keep the battlefield full of bloodshed).

13) Creeps should be road blocks. DGs need to not be able to walk around creeps like they are little ants that can be stepped on.

Too bad all these guys are writing in bullet form. I'm not reading anthing in this form

huh?

It would be cool if one of the generals has some totem or ability like: warcry - minions around the general burst into frenzy dealing 50% more damage for 5 seconds. Stuff like this to make the general feel like he is leading an army to victory . More abilities to enhance the battlefield or support other assassins. Example: Life/mana/damage wards, auras, temporary portal buffs, temporary summons, the list goes on and on. Would be nice to see more army support stuff like this rather than lets make our general have another assassin like ability. I still think they could make minions more than just fodder and give them abilities or if you get a special minion that could gain levels themselves so the better you play them the higher they perform.

One thing that caught my eye, that I hadnt thought of before, was how you mentioned that generals can wear equipment. Thinking on that, I agree that it really should be the case. If Assassins are the RPG side of the game, and Generals are the RTS side, which one should get equipment?

Honestly, its rather silly. After all, I'm not equiping my commander in SupCom with gauntlets of Fell-Dur.

However, someone else said that equipment is necessary to the game, which is true currently. Therefore, Generals should be changed to the point that they dont need equipment. I agree passionately that the shop for equipment should be replaced with that minion upgrade shop.

Also, I agree that a General, even equipped with the very best stuff, should be no match for a toe-to-toe with an Assassin. If Erebus can charge the Rook and win, something is wrong.

Lastly, I think theres one thing we can all agree on.

Generals need to change.

I think agree with a lot of what people are saying about the lack of different minions for the generals to control and so a general plays more like an rpg than an RTS. I think rather than redoing all the awesome spells of the generals we just need to change the variety of the minions and create more seperate items for generals. But what is the point of playing different generals if they don't even fight and how would you kill them if they don't fight. A general should lead his forces into battle. I like the way Erebus can move in and out of battle. I just think that like the berserk ability on oak is too much and that his shield and heal should focus more on his own creeps than demigods. Besides that with a few nerfs oak could be killable and Erebus is almost already there.

Am I crazy or does anyone else remember way back when demigod was first talked about it was supposed to be a fps like playstyle for assassins. So guys don't get your panties in a knot if the playstyles aren't night and day.

evnescent u gave no examples of what needs to be changed and why or what doesn't need to be changed. Also maybe if u didn't realise I miss read earlier and thought it was supposed to be in bullet form. Also 1 big complaint I have for alot of peoples suggestions is if u make generals alot weak than their easy kills. They should be able to fight like they do in rts's without assins coming in and killing them in 2 secs. Thats is why I have repeadntly suggested they just do no damage compared to assins making them only good for killing grunts unless the general gets units to fight for him. Furthermore as it is beta 2 they said they would not do major changes but minor ones no. So complete makeovers prob won't work and arn't needed because they could concentrate on other things. yes they neeeded 10 fixed but not that much. Actually u do give equipment to commanders in supcom u give them special weapons, teleportation, or stuff to build faster. In other rts's u can usually get heroes equipment it doesn't do nearly as much. Also assins shouldn't rely on generals they should be deadly killers that can effectivly fight without generals help. What if its 1v1 u saying and assins screwed.

Scale :

In my opinion this is good scale of what is good army, big assassin (and so big powered assassin), and general not so weak vs creep :

compare with

edit:

demigod.com / feature we can read :

Know Your Army
Reinforcements will come through your portal regularly, helping you push your way to your opponent's stronghold. As you fight and win battles, these reinforcements grow in size and power. What starts as a simple unit of soldiers and archers will grow into a deadly force armed with priests, angels, building-destroying catapultasauri and army-smashing giants. As a general, build barracks around your castle and recruit these units for your own personal army. Command your own army with simple RTS controls.

Castles
Your own castle is color coded and can be easily found. Protect your castle with archer towers and towers of light. As an assassin, build powerful stores so you can quickly upgrade your Demigod and return to the fray. As a general, build barracks to recruit your army. If you are ever low on health, recall back to your castle to quickly heal.

this is what for i'm willing to play

Currently:

I can't construct and defend my own base.
I can't build my own army (just three type of minion, max of four, 2 by 2)

Reinforcement are not helping the team, they are the main battle force (they must be less important if general have real army)

Idea:

Allow building of more defense around some location (defense flag, citadel) you can use Battle for Middle Earth I type of base, creating some sort of outpost wich could be siegable (inside with ressource, respawn item and units buying)

If General are in the outpost/flag/citadel perimeter (or right click at the citadel/outpost like they do now) they can buy extension
- wall around a limited perimeter
- ressource production building (gold mine for the team, spirit farm to build unit -each unit need one soul or more to live)
- item shop (more shop type ? armoury, potion shop, ... perhaps you could upgrade your troop at shop)
- units production center (archer casern, tauren house, spirit temple etc)

Make generals doing less damage vs assassin but with more hp so they can stay in battle helping their creeps.

Units need different model (just minor change) so we can see wich is lvl 4 or 1

Make generals having more aura power

BFME is not an RTS reference, but his way of having base is simple and easy for non rts gamer.

Demigod is about heroic and epic battle, battle have to be more epic, cristalised around an important point.

(hum ... assassin are fine )

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