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“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” – B. Franklin

By on February 19, 2016 6:20:52 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002
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Tim Cook, is saying “No!”, in thunder to the DoJ.

But…”What if there’s info in there that would help catch terrorists?” That “What if” that makes us decide for ourselves the answer to Ben Franklin’s statement. Tim Cook said “No.” to the Justice Department’s Order to assist the FBI extract data from the San Bernadino terrorist’s phone. Wanna know something? He was right to do so.

Why? Well, for one thing, does it occur to anyone that the FBI has the terrorist’s fingerprint? So, why can’t they unlock the phone? Does it occur to anyone the government has super Cray computers which could have unlocked that phone? Why do they want the backdoor which they’ve wanted for a year at least? Why are they saying this is a “once only” when it clearly is not?

The FBI says it would be a “one time”, and that your device’s security wouldn’t be compromised. Security experts disagree: THEY say it will. Guess who I believe? Why should anyone believe that “one time” nonsense? The NSA collected your data illegally for years. Now? Congress has made it legal. Trust them to take your rights without a fight.

From the moment the FBI was created, J. Edgar Hoover collected dirt on everyone and used it to blackmail Presidents and Congresses and Courts. You think anything has changed? They’ve only gotten better at it, and justifying it because they know they’re dealing with sheep (sorry, Jim). The government has violated your rights with impunity, and poo-poo it, and they’ve done it for years…and will continue to do so.

So, if they can unlock the phone (does anyone really believe they can’t?), why ask a Court for an order? Because they want it “legally” (who doesn’t love a farce?), and more than ANYTHING, they want a PRECEDENT. That is what they MUST NOT obtain. The Bill of Rights stands as an integrated whole. The First, Second and Fifth Amendments most definitely depend upon the Fourth Amendment, and “What if” is Not sufficient reason to violate anyone’s privacy, just as “We want to know” isn’t, either.

The government knows it cannot justify the iPhone search with proof there actually is data there which is critical to the security of America. They are acting out of “What if?”. Well, that’s called a “fishing expedition”. It is inadequate reason for a Federal Judge to grant a search warrant. The Court Order was a serious breach of every citizen’s right to privacy and unreasonable search and seizure. Judges guard the Fourth Amendment jealously. They’d better, because the FBI would be looking at their phones with any imaginary “what if” they could dream up. Not just the FBI: Every local Police Dep’t. could “justify” such a search in a similar manner. Where is the boundary?

“We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.” – B. Franklin. Well, The EFF and ACLU, Google, Twitter and Facebook are standing with Apple on this. Shaping up to be an epic fight. I hope “We the People” win. “Backdoors” weaken security. They do not strengthen it. If a backdoor exists, ANYONE can exploit it, and will. The CIA has been trying to break into iPhones for years without success. You can bet the FSB and others have, as well.

So, Tim Cook is vowing to fight the DoJ’s Magistrate’s Order all the way to the Supreme Court. So would I: At best? There’ll be a tie, and no way to resolve it. Fitting in a karmic way.

Source:

http://www.engadget.com/2016/02/18/fbi-apple-iphone-explainer/

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February 22, 2016 7:51:49 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Wow.

Lots of stuff.

My thoughts, if anyone cares:

What stupid things other people do has nothing to do with me or my property.

I don't grant the government the power to decide what I can and can't purchase with my money.  

And yes, that means if I wanted "drugs" (which I don't so I comply with the law only because my preferences happen to coincide with it) I'd get them.

Same for guns or anything else.  I have guns. I like them. I think they're pretty neat in the same way other people like sports cars (which I've had too). It's no one's business what guns I have or don't have and I would absolutely use deadly force if anyone tried to steal my property from me whether that be a burglar or an agent of the government.

What people overseas don't understand is that this desire to be free from our "betters" was the foundation of our country.  Of course the United States is different. Of course Americans are different.  We're cranks. We're violent. We're crazies. But we're also the ones responsible for much of the cool stuff you rely on whether it be this forum or Twitter or Facebook or Google or Microsoft or Apple or whatever.  

We like to do what we want.  And we'll do whatever it takes to keep it that way.

 

 

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February 22, 2016 8:21:57 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

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February 22, 2016 8:51:04 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

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February 22, 2016 8:54:52 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting gmc2,

In case one's interested here's the judge's order;

 

Still 'trying' to get back to the OP...[guns, Religion, and guns and religion aren't the topic] ...

Anyone read this?

Anyone notice the order relates to a specific object...serial number included?

Anyone here think that extrapolation of such to the point of 'oh, gad...our liberty is screwed - we are all gonna die'  is just a wee bit OTT?

Anyone here blindly confident that Apple is being totally altruistic [the ones with the fishing-net suicide cure]?

Anyone here consider that Mister B. Franklin was not refering to an iPhone or anything like it?

Anyone here actually believes that 'Liberty' is threatened by another's access to one solitary phone?

 

It's about as skewed as Assange claiming he was held against his will when he personally decided to hole out in that Embassy.... and Oz did something wrong by withholding his passport.  Sorry, Assange...we have an extradition treaty with both the UK and Sweden.  You're wanted on sex charges.  Man up.

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February 22, 2016 10:55:32 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting BlackSmokeDMax,


Quoting gevansmd,

My point is, getting a warrant when you're in custody for the crime should be easier. In other words, it's not an unreasonable search. It appears as if proper procedures were followed to get the order.



No it shouldn't be easier. It should fall under the exact same rules. If all they need to do is arrest you first to make it easier, why bother ever getting a search warrant the appropriate way?

The only way it would work they way you think is if they required some sort of evidence to place you in custody in the first place. Which they do not. Granted they can't hold you forever, but if all they need is to have you in custody for the time it takes to get a warrant, that is all they will do.

That would be a blatant end-around on the laws in place regarding search warrants.

 

The perpetrators are already dead.  What rights of theirs can possibly be violated? Even if they were alive, are you saying the police have no legal way to gather evidence?  That's where the courts come in and they have in this case.  Apple is happy enough to decrypt their phones for China, so they can have a market there but suddenly have cold feet when 14 people are murdered?  Please!

 

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February 23, 2016 12:52:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

This has actually stayed rather well on topic, all things considered.  Gun rights directly tie into the FBI not doing what it's supposed to, are from the same family of protected rights, and are part of our protection against the government doing such things as this.

 

Removing a unique identifier from the software to make it work on other phones is probably about as simple a change as it gets.  Do you really believe the FBI is going to come back to Apple for every new phone when they can just pay some college kid to reverse engineer the restrictions and get carte blanche?  Even if they stick to using it when they're supposed to, why would they not reverse engineer a restriction out of the works after Apple does the hard part of circumventing all their security measures?  I wouldn't expect them to stick within their legal restrictions anyway, anyone that does should probably have themselves institutionalized.  They are under multiple orders to cease storing the firearms background checks they are statutorily required to dispose of by the next business day, they've still got every last one of them, mine included.  When they built the NICS system, Janet Reno, our then Attorney General, told Congress it wasn't even capable of deleting them, because delete functions are really hard for computers apparently.  They actually do delete them from the NICS system now, supposedly at least, but not before they store them on interconnected systems across multiple agencies, including the insufficiently maligned ATF, as if that somehow makes it legal.  The FBI, and the DOJ in general, have a long, lustrous history of telling the law they're sworn to uphold to go fuck itself whenever they don't like it.

 

you'll learn how to shoot with a 9mm during your time, yes, but carry does this weapon the commanding stuff

 

This is reasoning from the Civil War era, not a particularly modern outlook on military armament.  According to Wikipedia, they published their personal equipment numbers a few years back.  One seventh the number of pistols as rifles, not including the thousands of elite troops who have a standard sidearm that isn't part of those numbers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland#Equipment

 

sure, but these weapons ultimately have to come from somewhere, so I would venture to say they've been produced by your own industry, sold legally, and then entered the black market.

 

Or from Europe, which exports like 20% of the arms.  The Checks make great pistols, the afformentioned P220 is a SIG Sauer, they make really nice pistols in Switzerland too, very popular here.  The US only has around 30% of the arms market, and we're not some tiny island that can reasonably keep them out.  Customs stops illegal arms shipments like they stop drug shipments, often, but with little impact on the flow.  Most criminals are buying old weapons, a lot of military surplus and old stock around the world ends up on the black market.

 

perhaps, but your crimerate is still obscenely high in comparison to other countries which restrict firearms more

 

You just said Switzerland isn't as violent with the same reasoning that explains this, it is intellectual dishonesty to pretend the USA is magically immune to all the factors that make other gun toting societies safe just because your own personal paranoia makes you dislike the idea of your peers being armed.  Criminal gangs account for an overwhelming majority of violent crime in the major crime cities, as much as 80%, including murder, fueled by monetary considerations, and primarily are comprised of minorities and illegals, both of which are groups with cultural differences that lead to additional friction in a society.  Take them out of the equation, and the US resembles Europe in general.  Wait another ten years, and Europe will resemble the US instead, the influx of third world Muslims is going to do the same there as the influx of Hispanics and the destruction of black culture by welfare has done here.

 

We like to do what we want.  And we'll do whatever it takes to keep it that way.

 

As one of my favorite founder said, give me liberty, or give me death!  I'm just not interested in tolerating anything less.

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February 23, 2016 4:40:09 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Jafo. It ISN'T about just one phone.

If it were, then Apple would have gone along with the catch all stupid 18th century law compelling companies to help the government by providing needed evidence they've gone along with the past 70+ times. 

THIS time the fucking government is demanding Apple produce a program to weaken the security of NOT JUST this one 5c. It's to weaken all their phones, new and old because it weakens their OS.

What about this is hard to understand? And btw, enough America bashing.

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February 23, 2016 5:45:19 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

Jafo. It ISN'T about just one phone.

If it were, then Apple would have gone along with the catch all stupid 18th century law compelling companies to help the government by providing needed evidence they've gone along with the past 70+ times. 

THIS time the fucking government is demanding Apple produce a program to weaken the security of NOT JUST this one 5c. It's to weaken all their phones, new and old because it weakens their OS.

What about this is hard to understand? And btw, enough America bashing.

Doc,  I do have to agree that this about more than just one phone.  That court decision opened a whole new can of worms for the US government and its agencies to exploit.... and exploit it they will.... with a vengeance now the door has been left ajar just enough to stick a size 15 boot in the gap to prevent its closure.  Eventually, there will be dozens of size 15 boots forcing it ajar ever wider, eventually forcing it wide open.

I know that Americans dislike government influence/intervenion in their lives and would do pretty near anything to restrict it, but the FBI v Apple case marks a new era of government and law enforcement surveillance and intrusions.  Things won't change overnight, but they WILL change... and there's a whole raft of consequences and variations that have yet to hit the fan.  Yup, the times they are a changin'....and not for the better

Oh, and that business about the Brits and guns, that was hundreds of years ago.... the time to move on from that mentality passed a couple centuries or more ago.  Put bluntly, a supposedly civilised society should not feel the need to arm itself to the teeth to so-say defend itself.... because civilised people don't go around shitting on each other and necessitating the use of firearms to 'settle' things...RIGHT?

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February 23, 2016 6:11:35 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

What about this is hard to understand?

The order cites the phone's serial number.  That makes it one phone.

Apple's CEO decided to make a meal out of it...probably an election year...

...oh, wait....

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February 23, 2016 6:18:13 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Nope, Jafo. 

In order to open that "one iPhone", Apple would have to create a program which would weaken its encryption, which could be used on EVERY iPhone.

It is NOT about that one phone. In essence it's a whole new ball game...and not just for Apple. It will be a whole new precedent, because the situation is VERY different from earlier cases where Apple DID help. And the DoJ and FBI (etc.) know it.

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February 23, 2016 6:26:55 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

As if Apple hasn't got a way to get into anyone's system as and when they see fit already.

What Apple DOESN'T want to reveal to the 'paranoid' public is they could get in anytime all along....

For those who swear by tinfoil hats .... that'll be the TRUE agenda behind Apple's reluctance.

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February 23, 2016 7:48:37 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Tin foil, indeed. 

The FBI itself ruined the easiest (which Apple might well have used to help them) way access the data. HERE.

Now, because of their incompetence (do you really believe that?) they are demanding a program be written to decrease the security of the OS. THAT'S what the fight is all about. A whole new lever for the FBI to get anything any way they want. Subpoena? Who needs your stinkin' Subpoena? You will write us a program for a backdoor...and with that precedent will demand it of other companies.

Wrong. Cook is opposing them, rightly. The Magistrate who decided to grant the Court Order probably understood nothing about what was being asked for and its implications.

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February 23, 2016 8:04:44 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

The Magistrate who decided to grant the Court Order probably understood nothing about what was being asked for and its implications.

Actually, I was quite surprised how well the order appeared to be tech savvy. The issue, I think, is providing the FBI with a signed software package to unlock the phone. Seems that would negate all iphones?

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February 23, 2016 8:13:48 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Right on Brad, I agree 100%.

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February 23, 2016 8:14:44 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

The Magistrate who decided to grant the Court Order probably understood nothing about what was being asked for and its implications.

Oh, I bet it was well and truly understood.

Yes, I know....the phrases 'the law is an ass' .... and 'it's a case of Bliiiiind justice' [Guthrie] ....are all well and cute, but in most countries it's a requirement that Judges, etc. have a passable I.Q.

Sell your Govt. short....assume the worst of them....but the Judicial system too?

 

The only trustworthy creatures on the planet are all my little friends I speak to on the internets......

 

It isn't truth unless I found it on Google...

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February 23, 2016 8:21:33 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting gmc2,

The issue, I think, is providing the FBI with a signed software package to unlock the phone. Seems that would negate all iphones?

Isn't that what I wrote? And I don't think the Magistrate understood how that is a bird of a different feather.

 

Jafo, if you're happy to surrender your privacy and data without a warrant that can be fought...oh. I forgot. You have no Fourth Amendment.

No worries. I'm sure government is perfect in Oz. And by the way, the Judiciary is part of the government, here in the USA. And I don't sell them short.

Here, we keep a watchful eye on the government because they're just people with all the included foibles such as greed for power, and the arrogance of knowing what's best for everyone...

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February 23, 2016 8:31:48 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Seriously, with all this talk about the how the government is out to get you, take away your rights, privacy and guns, etc...the question I asked earlier in this thread remains.

Why are you still here? Certainly there must be other countries around the world that have politics and policies more to your liking?

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February 23, 2016 8:53:29 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Here we have the right to our beliefs...especially when founded in fact. 

The question isn't whether or where to stay. The point is keeping the place you're in true to course, and the "management" within its legal boundaries because Americans have fought and died for those principles.

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February 23, 2016 8:56:35 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

Jafo, if you're happy to surrender your privacy and data without a warrant that can be fought

For the sake of getting the better of terrorists who hide behind the exact same protection you yearn to keep...yes...they can have it gladly.

People have given up far more than some crappy data on a phone in the fight against terrorism.

The not releasing phone data is the 'do nothing' in that saying...."all that is needed for evil to prosper...."

I can't help but think how the rights of the victims fared....

I put more value on a person's life than whether his phone will reveal he's been shagging his secretary...

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February 23, 2016 9:31:26 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Jafo,

For the sake of getting the better of terrorists who hide behind the exact same protection you yearn to keep...yes...they can have it gladly.

Well, my answer is the title of the OP...

Quoting Jafo,

People have given up far more than some crappy data on a phone in the fight against terrorism.

So many have given all that and more for the right to say "No" to the government, and to prevent the terrorists from actually harming us by changing our basic rights, among them privacy.

Quoting Jafo,

I put more value on a person's life than whether his phone will reveal he's been shagging his secretary...

Actually? It's about far, far more than that triviality...but even that privacy is sacrosanct.

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February 23, 2016 10:55:22 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Thanks, Hank.

That "All Writs Act" was the name I'd forgotten when referring to the "18th century law" in response #107. 

"The agency sought a work-around in the court order, which does not directly demand that Apple decrypt Farook’s iPhone 5c. Instead, the order asks Apple to create software that would disable a failsafe that triggers the phone to wipe its own memory if an incorrect password is inputted 10 times in a row." - J. Comey, Dir. FBI

Right...thereby creating digitally compromised OSs, just for the FBI. Not. Once created it'll get out there...just like everything else. Then they'll say, "Ooops, sorry about that." when the hackers get everyone's data. NO!

And anyone believes that won't be used on every iPhone user here and abroad? Then...Samsung, etc. Our new take on John Donne..."Ask not for whom the phone rings...".

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February 23, 2016 11:10:02 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

I'm all the way with Doc here. This would open an extremely dangerous precedent. And if you think that precedent would not be abused by the FBI, NSA, or whomever, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Just look at what is happening right now in the good old USA: the TSA abusing everyone's rights in the name of 'security' (what else?), no fly-lists that people get into without even knowing why and are nearly impossible (if not impossible) to get out of....

Open your eyes, guys!!! This is the time were you MUST defend your rights - or you WILL lose them.

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February 23, 2016 11:33:36 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Jafo,

The order cites the phone's serial number. That makes it one phone.

No, the US courts [thus government and law enforcement agencies] absolutely love to deal in precedents.  Right or wrong, if it has been 'similarly' done before, it can be 'legally' done again.... meaning that if somebody can get away with rape because it happened in his own bedroom, somebody else will because somebody else was 'stupid' enough to stumble into a rapist's living room after being lured ther for untoward purposes. 

Seriously, US law is not as staright forward as ours and doesn't necessarily follow the same loical paths, not to say our dudicial system is perfect, either, but one has to better understand the US 'way' of doing things before categorically declaring anything as being set in stone/concrete.

Fact is, the US government ans its agencies are the most invasive and downright invading on the planet, so if you think for one milisecond that this stops at just one phone, then you are either uninformed, completely naive and/or delusional.  Worse still, while the Yanks and Brits are notorious for sticking their noses in the affairs of others [domesric And otherwise], Australia is pretty much tarred with the same brush and sooner or later follows suit to appease its more powerful allies.

And no, this is not tinfoil hat talk here.  Truth is, there are ***** who would see you down and/or dead if it advanced their goals, wealth and prosperity.  It's a fact of life, and has been since the dawn of time, those with the power and wealth will fuck anyone over to enhance their own prospects, and in this technological era of the 'information highway', where knowledge is power, governments and corporations alike are seeking to extract anything and everything from everywhere to increase their power over anyone and everyone.

Anyone who doesn't realise this needs to get the duck shit out of their eyes and ears and face up to the reality that's evolving before their eyes.  Truth is, the majority of the world has become so complacent, blindly trusting even, that it simply complies with the status quo, right or wrong, and lets governments and corporations shit all over them without complaint... not even a question as to the reasons why.

Oh, and for those Americans who still believe the Constituton is a bill of rigths that still protects them, think again.  The powers that be saw these as a threat and have been undermining them for the last 300 or more years.  Slowly but surely your bill of rights has been evaporated, and this week's court decision against Apple is just the first grab for power in a whole new order of things  Now the precedent has been established, a whole raft of changes will be now implemented over time to dilute your 'protections' even more. 

And yeah, given recent events, my tinfoil hat needs replacing with something more heavy duty.

 

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February 23, 2016 11:51:28 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting JcRabbit,

Open your eyes, guys!!! This is the time were you MUST defend your rights - or you WILL lose them.

Given recent events, the constant undermining of the 'bill of rights' over the last 200+ years, they're already lost.  In fact, they have been lost for a longer time, only the illusion they still exist remains.

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