Didn't have a problem in test game, but of course this is still a possibility. But... If you think the health proc will save you being that close to Rook you are surely mistaken. Also, mana is of no use when you are near dead. Finally, Tower Strength splash is fixed so expect BS1 early. Really. You dont want to be the target of an arrow tower, let alone try and proc effects off of one.
Rook's archer towers shoot 6 arrows a volley, 2 volleys a second, dealing 5 damage each arrow. That comes out to 60 dps (mitigated by armor), and 12 "hits". If you get the "Tower of Light" upgrade at level 5, you increase the number of arrows per volley to 12, and they each deal 7 damage which comes to 168 dps, mitigated by armor, and 24 "hits".
If you have a 5% proc rate and you have 30% mitigation at the time (not hard, since Platemail of the Crusader gives +1000 armor), you're taking 42 or 112 dps. You have a proc chance of "60%" or "120%" since it can keep procing each time. That means that Rook is "giving" you 120 or 192 hps (that includes your incoming damage assuming you have NO mitigation whatsoever. If you have armor that number increases) by having arrows.
That doesn't even include creeps/minions/towers/demigods that may be wailing on you as well (though that's not quite such of a big deal).
Groffling shares this same "problem", but it costs more than twice the price, and has a shield that doesn't offer mitigation. The only time Groffling's proc would be better than Crusader's is if you are at full hp.
If you reduce the proc rate to 3%, then you drop to 48 hps or 56 hps (assuming no mitigation, so it would be higher). This is reasonable (look at Narmoth's) and makes it a decent counter without getting absurd. It already provides good health per second and armor and provides one of the best minion hp bonuses as well.
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Agreed that it looks like that at first. But the arguments against... There is a significant penalty for taking items that grant you neither mana, health or armor. (and 35% regen is bad for 750). Expect BS1 upgrade, so you need an early possible minion health item if you don't take tome of endurance. As for anti-Sedna only. LE has good regen potential now. Many of the lowered price items offer really good regen that were not ever seen in play before, and there is ring of the Ancients now which is well worth 2500. I was horrified at first.. and then quickly rememberd this item. I see now why they put it in the game. If you stack +regen items and skills (something not really possible before because of cost) things can get pretty crazy when you watch the health bar moving.
Minion users don't care about mana pool, health, OR armor. Spirit Oak needs a decent regen to keep placing wards, but that's pretty much it, and minion users don't tend to keep monks around them and are at risk against long-ranged characters and attacks (Fireball, Rain of Ice into Fog of War, Snipe). Hence why the +35% mps and +10 hps is useful. The proc is useful for Erebus hybrid-minion builds that level up Coven and get Bite instead of Morale.
The minion bonus is currently as good as Haubrek is. For a 750 gold item, it needs to have a dedicated role. It should either be dedicated for minion users, generally good for the average build, or dedicated for "anti-regen". Right now it's awesome for minion users, shitty for the average build, and is sorta "meh" for anti-regen. Various abilities will clear it, and regen doesn't get off the charts for quite a while, even with your changes.
You should dedicate it:
a) remove the hps and %mps, and keep it how it is (still great for minion builds)
remove the minon health bonuses but improve the hps and mps.
c) remove the minion health bonuses but improve the proc to 10%, or make it tied to your skills (eg, every time you use a skill, apply that debuff to everything it hits. Maybe make the debuff only last 3 or 5 seconds).
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Low mana pool. Is there a time to take it? Yah. But Plenor I find is still better. Skills do not proc the Proc items, and this I find is where the majority of things you need to worry about come from. Most of the time, you get hit by many AAs only when you aree fleeing a gank, or are in a big battle.
Will review though, but 5% is not much more then 3%, and this item is never taken in games, so rapid mana filling has never been a potential issue. (unless we just never realized it should be)
525 is not "low" mana pool. It's just "less" than Plenor. It's only one more skill at that point of the game. The problem is mostly with Erebus. Irek used to actually SELL both his helms and get Vinling when catapults come out. He would then go into the middle of enemy creep waves, and use bite on the minions to stay alive. He could go from near-empty on mana to full in a few seconds. However that was before HP stacking really caught on.
5% is actually a LOT more than 3%.
I only see this item screwing up Erebus mirrors (and Erebus in general with synergy of intentionally running into creepwaves, biting them to regain HP, filling up mana bar, then Batswarming them to kill them all). That's it. 6 Nightcrawlers add 3 "hits" a second (60 dps, mitigated). 3 hits a second @ 5% means that - just from Coven - the Erebus that got Vinling instead of Plenor will get 350 mana every 6.7 seconds (This doesn't include autoattacks from Erebus, monks, or creepwaves either). It takes two procs to make up the mana difference of Plenor, so it would even out after about 2 bites. The 1050 mana on Vinling is more than enough for 2 bites.
This means that the Erebus with Vinling will always beat the Erebus with Plenor assuming they both got one point in Coven. If the Plenor Erebus didn't get one point in Coven, then it would be more equal.
Changing it from 5% back down to 3% would probably balance it. Plenor would still probably be better for just about everyone else in the game, except for Erebus and Plenor is better in 3v3 dogfights than Vinling (which, in turn, is better for 1v1 lane skirmishes).
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I'll take your word on Footmans. It is sorta weird, but whatever. It does have a unique role in the game now.
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Thought of this extensively. Dodge is capped at 40 and does not work against most skills or when you are stunned. All of the dodge items do not grant you health. If you try and hit 40 dodge, you are going to be very vulnerable to skill spam and have low armor. Is it worth it in some cases? For sure. Is it OP? Haven't found a problm yet.
I also toyed with the idea of a few anti-dodge skills. eg: Maybe maim could reduce dodge which makes sense. So could slow skills. (you can't dodge as easily if you can't move fast)
I know dodge doesn't proc on skills (except Spit). I did forget it was capped at 40 and didn't know it didn't work while stunned.
Having low armor with dodge doesn't really matter since dodge is roughly equal (and multiplies) armor. Please read here: https://forums.demigodthegame.com/365017
Ptarth does an excellent job doing a mathematical analysis of the similar and dissimilar benefits of armor and dodge and when one is better and worse.
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I am also toying of the idea that this item should effect Rook towers since AA can be easly increased with items now.
That is a terrible idea. Don't do that.
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Agreed, This is a very good item. However, stacking heavy armor is easier now with certain combos compared to normal DG. Also, even when I want it in normal DG, I can't always justify it in most games unless I am clearly winning. (at which point its awesomeness is skewed to appear more awesome) It is still at the high end of affordability, but may need adjusting.
The benefit of Fell-Darkur is not the proc, nor is it the +30 Weapon Damage (although those are pretty good, just not worth 3500g in the vanilla game). It's the +8 minion damage and 5% minion attack speed. Increasing armor on the demigods is not the entire solution. By reducing the cost by 1250 they can get them roughly 2 minutes earlier (assuming Currency prices). This is aggravated even more with the overall reduction of other minion items.
Once a RoDM minion user gets Gloves of Brutality + Gloves of Fell-Darkur they will melt every tower and then destroy your citadel in minutes. Playing against RoDM users (especially in 1v1 and 2v2) is a race against time as they need to get about 8k gold worth of items before they start raping everything (berserkers + monks + siege demolishers + Gloves of Fell-Darkur + Gloves of Brutality)
Either buff the proc/weapon damage and nerf the minion damage, or leave the price as it is (3500g).
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Was thinking that these could use an overhaul since they aren't used. But the problem. They are also very powerful. I gave it some thought, and I couldn't come up with any good numbers.
Reduce their benefits while reducing their price. They don't necassarily have to be heal the same amount as they do now. Since regen builds may be more feasible, sigils will be getting indirectly nerfed anyway which means these may see more use.
An interesting way to balance it would actually to make them cost EXACTLY the same amount as the potions in the item shop, but make them better. (eg, instead of 750 hp, 1250). If you make them powerful (without being too nuts) it actually makes that shop worth fighting for because then you can have the "awesome pots".
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Thought process. At what point does damage reducton become better then blood? Many DGs cap out at 6000 HPs late game with a life build. So, 10% reduction is still not as good as blood even near the end of most games. But they are also getting 10% XP. Seems the right amount.
See the damage/armor discussion I posted above. Flat-out damage reduction is even MORE dangerous since it affects skills, and stacks multiplicatively with both armor and dodge. 10% Reduction also is more than just 10% hp... First of all, it's actually 11% (9/10ths damage == 10/9ths health). Second, it basically gives a +11% bonus to monk heals and natural HP regen (and sigils). Third is just the nasty armor bonuses.
It might be balanced out just fine, but it's a very scary and fine line.
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Agreed to 6.3, but the current changes are not insignificant, and he has escapes to go with that speed that other speed skills on other DGs cannot combo like. Will wait a bit.
It was a typo. Both Reg and DA should have been 6.3 not 6.5. I was thinking the 5% bonus to movement speed.
Sedna, as a squishy (in terms of having shit for hp, she can tank plenty fine) melee does tend to benefit a fair amount from speed. However, giving her a natural speed advantage is dangerous, in particular since she has Inner Grace already. She doesn't need to be the fastest demigod in the game (natural +5%, then +15% from skills). Reg and DA should be.
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No way. All DGs need an interrupt, and fire TB is no exception. TB is for certain tier 1 now, but you need to be a good player. It is also a slow interrupt, only good for probbably for 2+ second casts. There is no way this is OP.
This is where you and I are never going to agree. I do not believe that every demigod needs an interrupt (see Occulus, he performs just fine without one). If you choose to do a build that gives up one of TWO interrupts willingly, you did a cost-benefit analysis and that was what you choose. It is no different than an Erebus leveling up Coven or Mist instead of Mass Charm, or a Sedna who gives up Pounce for Inner Grace. Just because you choose to do something does not mean you get to be coddled in other ways. TB does not need three interrupts.
Heal doesn't get to interrupt because I don't have Pounce. Neither should Fire Nova because you didn't get Frost Nova. Even if it is "slow" it is still an AoE interrupt (which screws up melee attacks, if nothing else). Fire Nova also has MASSIVE range.
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The thinking. This is on the 5,10,15 skill path. most of the time you will not reach 15, and even at 10, the other competing stuns are better. A level 15 stun that is 0.5 seconds longer then a level 10 stun? (0.2 to TB wih his long follow through delay) Sounds right. Also not OP if we are making TB a tier 1 DG.
If you're playing TB and the game lasts 20, 25 minutes and you manage to NOT hit level 15, you're playing him wrong.
The AoE stuns in the game (since AoE should be weaker than single-target):
Boulder Roll - 15s cooldown - .4 cast + travel time - 250/500/750 damage, 1.5/2/2.5 stun. 560/800/1064 mana
Mass Charm - 20 s cooldown - 1s cast - 0 damage, 1/1.5/2/3 second stun (more for creeps). 450/600/750/900 mana
Silence - 15s cooldown - instant - 3/4/5 second no-abilities. 800/900/1000 mana
Frost Nova - 15s cooldown - .9s cast - 0 damage, 1/2/3 second stun (more for creeps, and stuns towers). -10/15/20 movement debuff. 750/1000/1250 mana.
So lets compare. Frost Nova has the typical "ultimate" cooldown of 15 seconds. Nothing abnormal about that.
Cast time is relatively short. Rook has the advantage when stunning someone in melee range because travel time is almost nothing. Silence is instant, but doesn't prevent movement.
Stun duration is weak, compared to Boulder Roll. However, Frost Nova I is primarily used as anti-building, not anti-demigod.
Damage can be done using Deep Freeze.
Mana costs are rather high.
So, Frost Nova I is underwhelming, as I said before. But it works great against Towers which is its primary use. It's just useless for escaping (just like Mass Charm I...). If you want to improve Frost Nova, fix the movement debuff durations. They start while they are stunned, so the -20% movement debuff only "really" lasts 2 seconds. Make the movement debuff last 5/6/7 seconds and you're golden.
If you feel the need to buff Frost TB, then make Permafrost "shatterable". That gives TB a little bit more damage output and makes a mostly useless Aura better.
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The problem with Yetis isn't that their damage (even if it is terrible). It's the fact that they cost an assload of mana to res and don't help Sedna do anything. They don't cover any of her flaws (poor damage, low HP, no AoE). Siege Minions, however, DO cover those flaws and can be purchased with gold instead of having to use skill points (as well as costing less mana to summon).
Yetis need to either be buffed to insane levels, or redesigned to have a purpose that benefits Sedna somehow.
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Pounce is a .3 second cast. With the command lag of .350 seconds, cannot interrupt it unless you have the ability to view the future. Pounce is easy to ANTICIPATE (oh look, that Sedna is barreling towards me. I wonder what she is going to do.... I should use X ability just before she comes into melee range). It is not easy to interrupt.
Additionally, you're putting a 1.2 second stun into a level 1 skill that does decent damage, is only 400 mana, and has a 7 second cooldown (which can be further reduced with favor items, skill selections and flags). OP OP OP.
There are a few reasons why Pounce sucks:
A) Heal is better in 1v1 fights because it is more mana efficient and Sedna has low HP. 3v3s Pounce tends to win out but that is because outgoing damage is better than reducing incoming damage in 3v3 dogpiles.
B ) Pounce cannot be used properly while chasing unless you have a +15% speed advantage over them (Swift Anklet, max Inner Grace, Pentitence/Bite is snaring) or you have to have Cloak of Night
C) Compared to all the other nukes in the game, its only "secondary" benefit is the interrupt. Fireball has large range and cheap costs. Bite has life drain, snare, and armor debuff. Penitence is ranged, snares, and damage debuffs. Hammer Slam does massive damage. Warp Strike teleports. Spine Attack has long range. This means that no matter how many points you put into Pounce, someone else putting the same amount of points into their "offensive" ability line is doing it better.
D) 1 point in Pounce is pretty damn awesome. It is dirt-cheap mana wise for an interupt, on a short cooldown and cast, and it does a lot of damage for just one skill point. Putting more points into Pounce just makes it cost more for only a mediocre amount of more damage. Okay. So that isn't really a reason why Pounce sucks. But it's why you rarely put more than one point into pounce until mid-late game.
If you want to improve Pounce and make it useful while chasing, the most obvious solution is to give her a movement speed buff (or an aura buff, since that is sort of "her thing"). Since she doesn't really have many debuffs, it wouldn't make sense to have Pounce "snare". Sedna can actually use Wyrmskin Gloves pretty decently, though (I used to get them instead of Nature's Reckoning a long ass time ago).
An interesting thing would be to make the buff double all friendly buff's affects for a short period of time. Eg, if you have been Surged then you pounce, you release an aura that doubles the effect of Surge. It would be the sort of thing that fits in well with her, and would also have interesting (probably horribly overpowered) synergy with Magnificent Presence.
Another option would be to cause "bleed", reducing enemy mana and/or health regen.
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He needs an interrupt. Occ is poweful, yes, but popping a large potion in combat or locking a flag in his face is not fair. If it is on hit 1, you need to be under him for it to work. He cannot reach out and interrupt you at a distance. Other skill suggstions? Was thinking maybe brainstorm could somehow double as a team skill or anti-Dg skill. (drain mana and interupt when applied to an enemy)
Again, I don't think that every demigod needs an interrupt. If they are popping a large potion, you're sitting there wailing on them as they do it, and they are only eating that potion because they were losing in the first place. Occulus is not weak.
Brainstorm is the most logical place to put it, if you absolutely had to. Another option would be to attach it to the lightning passive (his army and his creeps have the ability to randomly fire interrupts). Brainstorm is also pretty good once it removes debuffs @ Level 5 like it is supposed to. Magnus Rod + Brainstorm is brutal.
Since I hate homogeneity in a game, instead of giving Occulus an interrupt (when he is doing mostly just fine without it), you could have the balls give off a debuff aura that increases cast times. 10/15/20/25 would be interesting. 25% longer cast times... it would be an interesting way to do it as well as buffing the balls.
Let's compare Mark of the Betrayer and Spike Wave to Penitence (for the adding of interrupt) and Boulder Roll to compare with Spike Wave
Pentitence - 7s cooldown - instant - 20 range - 200/400/600/800 damage, 7/10/13/16% snare and increased damage for 7 seconds, 450/550/650/750 mana
Mark of the Betrayer - 20s cooldown - instant - 20 range - 400/600/800 AoE damage, 20/40/60% snare for 5 seconds. 600/775/950 mana
Spike Wave - 10s cooldown (except Level III, which you fixed) - .4 cast + travel time - 20/25/30 range - 350/500/650 damage, 15/20/25% snare. 750/1000/1250 cooldown
Boulder Roll - 15s cooldown - .4 cast + travel time - 250/500/750 damage, 1.5/2/2.5 stun. 560/800/1064 mana
Pentitence:
+ Best Cooldown
+ Most mana efficient for mana/damage at highest level (though level 1-2 are pretty terrible)
+ Best debuffs
- single target only
Mark of the Betrayer:
+ Best AoE damage for cost
+ Huge snare has excellent synergy with mines
- Can be removed by a few abilities and only activates when using an ability
- very long cooldown
Spike Wave:
+ excellent range, espiecially once leveled
- not instant, which is fair
- very expensive mana-wise when you level it up
Considering how Spike Wave is on a squishy character that requires form changing, it is rather underwhelming espiecially compared to Boulder Roll. Its only major redeeming aspect is the long range + short cooldown. So I guess adding an interrupt isn't that big of a deal.
However, Mark of the Betrayer is pretty g'damn awesome once you make it an interrupt. Its only major flaw is that it is a little bit expensive mana wise (since Reg is buying currency/etc not a lot of mana left) and that it has a very long cooldown. But I don't think that it fits in with Reg to have it function as an interrupt. Reg shouldn't be really doing much 1v1 ANYWAY since he is a sniper character.
I think making Mark of the Betrayer function like Deep Freeze is the best way. Make it increase cooldowns by 20% (more than the celerity flag, which prevents chain locking). Either the ability you use has a long cooldown, or all abilities used while snared have a long cooldown. Or have that effect happen while sniped.
Eg, if you are sniped while having MotB on you, you are interrupted. I don't think MotB needs an interrupt. Regulus functions just fine in 4v4 Levi and 5v5 Zikk. His problem is with 3v3 Cata, which is more of function of the maps design and player count than just him being super sucky.
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No decreases.
UB is the poster boy for determing balance increases on other things.
If you have UB be the control group, then at least raise everyone's (but Erebus) speed by .3 then raise DA and Reg another .3
I'm not exactly advocating a BUFF for plague. The problem with plague is it slows down the game. If Post Mortem properly awarded gold and XP, it wouldn't be too bad of a skill line. Making Plague deal 20 or 30 damage every 2 or 3 seconds instead of 10 every second would help fix that.
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Reg is nowhere near T1 even with all those buffs. MotB interrupt is a must, but he also needs a base speed increase to 6.3. In addition, snipe scales horribly, it needs a 1-2 secs decrease in cooldown per lvl so it becomes more spammable the more you lvl it up, maybe even a cast time decrease too.
I think another part to make Reg better in 3v3 Cata is to rearrange the flags. Put both gold mines on the mana side, both celerities on hp side. Make the mana side a +15 mps flag instead of a 15% pool flag (which, in turn, makes % mps items more exciting). It also makes fighting for the hp side more interesting since if you have the mps flag, but not the hp flag you might be able to push them off, etc.
Adding to that, make the hp flag into a debilitating flag (+10% damage for enemy team). This weakens monks and sigils and promotes damage-dealing over hp-stacking (Regulus Sniping the "damage" side in particular is buffed).
And, AGAIN. Reg is FINE on 4v4 Levi and 5v5 Zikk. He doesn't need any broadly sweeping changes that would imbalance those two maps (like reducing cooldowns). Improving his Level 15 skills is fine, they do suck (most of them do, really :/ ) and they don't upset those game modes.
