[MOD] OAK

its pretty much what nzac said.

i dont care about the how useful it is for getting out of tight situations. Thats why they are called 'tight' in the first place. If you got urself into a situation you cannot handle, its ur fault if you do but if u can avoid it then ur only playing smart and not exploiting skills capability just for that purpose. Only do it if you can.

Portal locking early game was my only issue with the stun immunity that came with shield 3.

i think now that ive changed something that people could rely on and with ease to get achieve usually unachieveable things (without shield), people are not liking it and i was expecting that. It was too easy for a noob to get lvl 3 shield and when about to die they would exploit this powerful effect and teleport back to base.

If we bring it bak to the lvl of a "skill", my nerf should not effect oaks potential of doing things any differently. It only means youll have to be a lil more cautious until you get lvl 4 shield.

hopefully ive made sense throughout that lol and see where im coming from.

I don't mean to be rude, but quite frankly I just won't play the mod. I think it's a fun mechanic. I enjoy using it and I enjoy watching opponents try to use it, and I just don't see the purpose of forcing Oak to wait until level 10 without just going all the way and removing it completely (which I wouldn't support at all of course).

The game is already very, very well balanced and this particular change is just taking a shot at one of the most fun tricks with no apparent objective besides making Oak worse. As I said, it doesn't help any of the weaker DGs and it further empowers some of the stronger ones.

The change seems especially tedious with UB's ability to stick to oak indefinitely after this. Again, I respect what you're doing, but this isn't the mod for me and I'll rail against it being implemented into the official game.

Quite frankly Cataract isn't the only map, no matter how much people play it. If they're sick of losing portals they should either learn to guard their lane, protect their side towers, or *gasp* play Levi or Zik 3v3 sometimes.

*tangent*

This just reminds me of all these people who play nothing but cat whining about HP stacking. If you can't stand the HP and how weak DPS items are, then why don't you play on levi? That's an instant 15% HP nerf and 10% DPS buff. I've seen this same nonsense with Big Game Hunters on Starcraft, No Mercy on L4D, Dead Center on L4D2, etc.

People are exacerbating minor issues by refusing to play different maps.

i dont see why ur complaing so much? its only a couple of levels more till u become invincible. Its not like i removed it completely.

and u think i havent improved the weaker demigods at all, i dont know what ur talking about here... i improved QoT, Reg and more. Rather than nerfing the stonger characters (coz i knew that would cause an uproar) i wanted to buff the weaker ones.

...i think ur just looking for an additional excuse on top of your love for oak to enforce that this mod will never come into play (which it may not). But im trying to do my best in bringing all demigods to the same level.

And ur intervention of me wanting to request this mod to go mainstream is based purely on the fact that i took out stun immunity on shield lvl 3. Why cant you deal with having to take a little more caution until your level 10? Im an oak player also and if used correctly this shield nerf doesnt deter me from doing things i would normally do. You just have to play a little SMARTER.

even if i nerfed the duration of shield 3 to 5 secs, you'll still have enough time to chain lock or flee a battle with a tp (if i were to leave the stun immune in).

Just think about it. Try not to be biased.

Why cant you deal with having to take a little more caution until your level 10?

Because levels 1-8 are boring enough, I don't want 9-10 to be more of the same.

You just have to play a little SMARTER.

That's purely a matter of perspective. Personally I view being able to punish the other team for leaving a lane unguarded, especially if they insist on always doing 3v2 or 3v1 smart gameplay. I think this change dumbs down gameplay, though I'm sure you see teleporting safely as the dumb part, though not so dumb that you saw fit to remove it completely.

The cap lock nerf made it so that it's impossible to cast a cap lock and a portal within a shield, it's one or the other if you don't want to get interrupted, not to mention people should play other maps than Cataract more frequently anyway.

and u think i havent improved the weaker demigods at all, i dont know what ur talking about here...

I never said that, I was referring to your Oak mod. I won't play it. You're still making these modular right?

"The cap lock nerf made it so that it's impossible to cast a cap lock and a portal within a shield"

. . . 2 seconds to lock , 3 seconds to port. Shields last 6 seconds. Am I missing something here. Even with the 350 ms enforced latency you can still queue actions, and the time to click is insignificant if you are clicking port as your status bar for lock is filling up.

You're right, it does still work, I hadn't been queueing my casts. That being said, I personally find removing that capacity to punish a team that doesn't guard the portal as dumbing down the game, and I especially don't want to see the utility of protecting people from debuffs other than stuns removed, seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I did say that it would be neccassary for it to protect against snares and such. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how the code deals with Stuns versus other debuffs. I know there is a "canBeDispelled" bit logic, but nothing that marks it as a stun IIRC.

Well I'm sure he could snag the BW code that gives it snare immunity, but I think protecting against spit, ooze, RoI, etc. is important too.

Quoting gkrit,

reply 26

its pretty much what nzac said.

i dont care about the how useful it is for getting out of tight situations. Thats why they are called 'tight' in the first place. If you got urself into a situation you cannot handle, its ur fault if you do but if u can avoid it then ur only playing smart and not exploiting skills capability just for that purpose. Only do it if you can.

Portal locking early game was my only issue with the stun immunity that came with shield 3.

i think now that ive changed something that people could rely on and with ease to get achieve usually unachieveable things (without shield), people are not liking it and i was expecting that. It was too easy for a noob to get lvl 3 shield and when about to die they would exploit this powerful effect and teleport back to base.

If we bring it bak to the lvl of a "skill", my nerf should not effect oaks potential of doing things any differently. It only means youll have to be a lil more cautious until you get lvl 4 shield.

hopefully ive made sense throughout that lol and see where im coming from.

I think it's a great idea. You didnt even remove it from Oak's bag of tricks, you just made it more of a late-game mechanic than an early-game mechanic.

Remove stun immunity-> this is a good thing, right now its almost impossible for an assasin oak to die after level 7 which is BULLSHIT.

There's not single reason why oak is so good; he has good stats, pent, shield, spirits, DJ+surge.

Lower CD on shield, it has the longest CD on any escape skill in the game. It basically means you have to use it as a cheaty shield+teleport instead of using it in battle.

lifekatana is right. lower the cd. now that you have nerfed shield3 it needs at least a lower cd to compensate.

btw. killing an oak is still possible. in a 3vs3 its mostly not 1vs1 but 2vs2 or something like that. so oak uses the shield on the first one who drops below 1k and then he is absolutely killable. so the only thing that this mod does is that it takes away oaks ability to annoy the enemy and that you have to take shield 4 if you want to annoy them. but that also means that you have to dismiss another skill because you NEED lvl4 and practically missing one skill point @lvl10 is a pretty big nerf.

Quoting HorseStrangler,

reply 27

I don't mean to be rude, but quite frankly I just won't play the mod. I think it's a fun mechanic. I enjoy using it and I enjoy watching opponents try to use it, and I just don't see the purpose of forcing Oak to wait until level 10 without just going all the way and removing it completely (which I wouldn't support at all of course).

The game is already very, very well balanced and this particular change is just taking a shot at one of the most fun tricks with no apparent objective besides making Oak worse. As I said, it doesn't help any of the weaker DGs and it further empowers some of the stronger ones.

I agree fully with you Obs. Many, including me (and I guess, many more aswell), won't play if you do this big nerfs to popular Demigods. Buff those who needs buffing, much better than to nerf. Since people just won't play it otherwise I think.

Quoting Esuzu,

reply 37

Quoting HorseStrangler, reply 27I don't mean to be rude, but quite frankly I just won't play the mod. I think it's a fun mechanic. I enjoy using it and I enjoy watching opponents try to use it, and I just don't see the purpose of forcing Oak to wait until level 10 without just going all the way and removing it completely (which I wouldn't support at all of course).

The game is already very, very well balanced and this particular change is just taking a shot at one of the most fun tricks with no apparent objective besides making Oak worse. As I said, it doesn't help any of the weaker DGs and it further empowers some of the stronger ones.

I agree fully with you Obs. Many, including me (and I guess, many more aswell), won't play if you do this big nerfs to popular Demigods. Buff those who needs buffing, much better than to nerf. Since people just won't play it otherwise I think.

omg ... lemme just say this now coz i think uve ignored all logic put behind this change. Oak shouldnt be "death-free", "chain-locker" so early in the game. its just bring way too much saftey in how you can play oak. This game is about risk and you should never rlly feel like you can never be taken down which is what oak can do outside of this mod. Its like sedna and her heal, even though shes the major support character ion this game, players know that shes not invincible and that she can be taken out easily if used recklessly.

Im sry obs and esezu if ur completely biased and think that he should be completely invincible from lvl 7.

Quoting gkrit,

reply 38

Im sry obs and esezu if ur completely biased and think that he should be completely invincible from lvl 7.

I'm sorry that you're unable to ever kill an oak after it reaches level 7, but I don't have that problem and in fact I think it's completely fictitious.

ereb can teleport just as easily as oak can sheild out, and so what if ereb isnt' immune to stuns and shit, ereb can escape fast enough to avoid that in the first place.

indeed, erebus is far more "unkillable" than oak.

yeh but thats until lvl 10 for the far swarm. and btw ereb only gets swarm at level 5. oak can have shield from the start.

oaks shield is far more superior than erebus' swarm.

u cant directly counter shield. Erebus can be caught up to with wand of speed it just depends on how the opposing team tries to counter ur strategy. where as shield can be applied and instantly tp out of there anywhere on the arena with no harm done. If ur smart ull do gank tactic also against and erebus.

but i dont think ill get through to u guys since u are dead set against my mod to protect ur beloved oak. As i said i use oak and i dont think it ruins oak that much. Just delays his invincibilty for later game which i think is how it should be.

And there it is. There's no real logic behind it, it's just how you think it should be.

When it comes down to it there's only a few balance changes that really need to be made to this game, and that's buffing mid to late game Reg (1-7 are fine), buffing QoT generally, slightly buffing TB, and then promoting a bit more equipment/consumable diversity. Changes to DA/Occ may or may not be necessary, I haven't played with them enough to be certain and I doubt anyone here really has either.

Without a really good explanation of why exactly nerfs to character I enjoy need to be made, I'm not going to play the mod and I'll advocate against its common usage. This mod just reminds me of the folks who set high towers. They do so because they perceive some increase in skill or depth when it's really just a change which brings its own issues and improves little.

yap, i generally like what you did and wouldnt fight about details but this is a huge nerf and its just totally unneccessary.

Sheild isnt powerful until later. In fact Oak isnt powerful till later. Immunity to damage for 2 seconds? Wow, that is amazing... not even counting the 35 second CD.

@ HorseStrangler

you just took out one segment of ALL ive said and based ur justifaction on that of why my change is completely unnecessary and seem like i made a biased decision (claiming to have no logic behind it). Ive posted the logic behind it, but you refuse to accept it or even take it into consideration. For one, i dont find stun immunity annoying and since i nerfed id be nerfing myself because i use oak quite a bit. But i just dont care coz i think its a fair change in the bigger picture.

I just think that when you take every demigods capabilities into consideration this 'immunity' peaks your self-sufficiency way beyond any other demigod. If you insist on it being a unique ability for oak, its only because use grown a habit of fully relying on ur early lvl shield to achieve normally impossible feats and now are not willing to accept the change just based on that fact.

Your reasoning to me seems completely biased. Otherwise prove me wrong and give me a list of things WHY he should be stun immune at level 7.

Quoting UncleanBeast,

reply 45

Sheild isnt powerful until later. In fact Oak isnt powerful till later. Immunity to damage for 2 seconds? Wow, that is amazing... not even counting the 35 second CD.

wtf, its starts of with 3 seconds and goes upwards from there. Dont forget theres a 2 second upgrade between level 2 shield and lvl 3 shield.

Your reasoning to me seems completely biased. Otherwise prove me wrong and give me a list of things WHY he should be stun immune at level 7.

Can you articulate why he should be stun immune at level 10? There's no direct, logical answer to it. It's a trick he's always had, it's a fundamental part of how he plays, it's a unique utility which contrasts Sedna's ability to remove debuffs repeatedly, it's a fun way to save teammates who would be otherwise doomed, especially a fragile one like TB (I've been playing TB/Oak a lot lately), it marks the end of the tedium of the first 7 levels, it's fun. What other answers could there be?

If someone asked me why Oak is overpowered I promise you the first thing that came to mind would NOT be that he gets powerful too fast. Quite frankly that sounds like something someone who doesn't understand Oak at all would say, as he's one of the slowest starting DGs and levels 1-7 are quite tedious.

The reasons why I think Oak is overpowered are that Penitence's self and team damage increase is easily the most effective debuff in the game, Surge of Faith gives his creeps and allies a massive boost umatched by any other DG, and Divine Justice heals for so much that late game Oak is the only DG who can stand in a lane and GAIN health and mana fighting wave after wave of Giants, even catapults offer major mana/health returns. It's a foregone conclusion that his own creep waves will win even with inferior damage and health upgrades, not to mention he's returning that heallth and mana to his entire team.

I just think you went off on a major tangent when you beyond tweaking the bottom three DGs. The idea of nerfing an ability because it protects against interrupts when two of the bottom three DGs don't even have an interrupt (and one is on a significant cooldown and is needed for the basic damage rotation/primary utility) just doesn't make sense to me, it seems more like a potshot at a DG perceived (and rightly so) to be too strong, not a surgical tweak. You're taking a very circuitous and grand approach to fixing what is actually a very narrow problem: Reg, TB, and QoT are too weak.

so your saying i wanted to nerf oak just simply because "I" cant handle his ability to avoid death at every possible instance from level 7 onwards?

you couldnt have been more wrong.

Can you articulate why he should be stun immune at level 10? There's no direct, logical answer to it. It's a trick he's always had, it's a fundamental part of how he plays, it's a unique utility which contrasts Sedna's ability to remove debuffs repeatedly, it's a fun way to save teammates who would be otherwise doomed, especially a fragile one like TB (I've been playing TB/Oak a lot lately), it marks the end of the tedium of the first 7 levels, it's fun. What other answers could there be?

What if he never started with stun immunity at lvl 3 shield? You would've known no better and you wouldve accepted it as it was because that was how the character was released. Your reasons in ur reply do not justify why he SHOULD'NT be nerfed.
You claim that it is "fun" but, ANY skill can be "fun" if they're OP and give you the opportunity to avoid death every time. Everyone enjoys winning thats why skills that promote chances of winning are fun!

Also, about me going on a tangent, did you see how big the list of changes were with the weaker demigods compared to the claimed OP demigods? You even supported my changes on UB coz they were a buff/tweak, now all of a sudden a nerf came into light and your all like "your going on a tangent, and ill never play this mod just based on that nerf". Comes across completely biased as ive said many times over, which i think it is and ignore it every single time.

BTW, I USE OAK ALSO! Im not biased, and my decision for this nerf was completely "balanced" oriented.

Quoting HorseStrangler,

reply 39

Quoting gkrit, reply 38Im sry obs and esezu if ur completely biased and think that he should be completely invincible from lvl 7.I'm sorry that you're unable to ever kill an oak after it reaches level 7, but I don't have that problem and in fact I think it's completely fictitious.

As Obs says: It's not impossible to kill Oak after lvl 7. It just gets a bit harder. If he is ganked and stunned he mostly don't have time to use shield etc.

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