New overlays and premades – TAKE THAT YOU PREMADE JERKS!

A pacov rant

By pacov on September 29, 2009 10:52:49 PM from

This has been talked about in other places, but I wanted to add my two cents as it’s an issue that will continue to impact the community for some time. If you have the time to read this and an open mind, please humor me by reading this post.

1^st – we're getting some new overlay features sometime in the next week or so (https://forums.demigodthegame.com/365437). If things work as advertised, we’ll see some additional information in game including games started/completed, won/lost, and familiarity with other players. Brad’s been pretty clear that indentifying players that have played together before is important to him (Frogboy: “I just got stomped by one too many premades”) and I’d wager, his opinion is pretty similar to new players and MANY puggers.

There’s a phrase I keep hearing over and over and it’s a simple one: premades are fine IF. IF they put PREMADE in their title, IF they only play other premades, IF they will break up their premade to make a more balanced game. Here are some loose definitions of premade and pug so we are all a little closer to being on the same page:

Premade – a team that is made in advance. Some people go to extremes and call it a premade if you’ve simply played a few games with a set group of people. Others only consider a premade a team that typically plays together. Some would even call you a premade if you and 1 buddy play a 4v4 on the same team. It's a term that is used in Demigod because apparently a special word is needed to describe a team in a team based game. If you play with the same group of people, you are not a team, you are a premade.

PUG – Individuals who play pick up games or games where they don’t have a set team. There are degrees with this as well. Some would indicate you are NOT a pugger if you play several games with an individual on the same team. Most consider you a Pugger AS LONG AS you are not in a premade.

The definitions don't really matter much in the end, as premades are generalized and then put in the box of premades are fine IF. We don't hear too much along the lines of pugger's are fine IF. They are just fine and need someone to make sure they aren't abused by premades. And if they get a chance to pass some abuse onto premades, then well... they had it coming for all the PUG stomps (I'm starting the puggers are fine IF list tonight btw).

The biggest complaint people seem to have about premades are PUG stomps. The definition varies on PUG stomps as well. Some would call it a PUG stomp if the teams were even slightly imbalanced. In the extreme (what almost always occurs) they consider any premade game against Pugs imbalanced (unless they win). The other extreme of PUG STOMPS is if the premade team maliciously fights only new players to the game. PUG stomps are pretty much a negative term regardless of your meaning, which makes it is easier to vilify premades if they do anything other than premade vs premade games (premades are fine IF).

To paint a clear picture of how puggers intentionally grief premade teams (because its justified, of course, because premades are fine IF BLANK. Go against their rules and it's ok for them to act like a jerk), see the following list.

Exciting ways to grief premades

· Join their game. Wait until its full. In chat, write, fing premade and leave (see picks of dielan and chemdude8 doing their version of this tonight 9/29/2009 - keeping the world safe for new players)

· If you start losing a game or even die once, ask "premade?" in chat (as in the only possibility YOU could have been killed was if you were up against a premade).

· Join a lobby that's full. Ask the premade to rebalance the game because you just showed up.

· Accuse every premade team you know of PUG stomping. Don't look into it at all as there is no need. (http://www.gamereplays.org/demigod/replays.php?game=51&tab=popular&show=details&id=96864 - see the comments for another example of someone doing the same thing)

· You've been victimized by every premade that ever existed - make sure they know it. FIND A WAY!

And last, for those of you not in a premade, I doubt you understand this all that well, so I'll explain the other side of things that you apparently don't see or don't care to see. It's the part that you don't get that enables you to act like a complete jerk and try to ruin other people's experience.

People in a premade play together because they like playing together. You can often have more competitive games by using voice chat (a feature that obviously should be in the game IMO) and by playing together often with the same group of people. I am a great individual player, but am substantially better by playing with people I know because I can count on a shield or a heal or a stun at the right time. Good players will do that for you sometimes. A good premade will do that for you most of the time. It's not cheating. Its playing the game the way it's actually MEANT to played (a team playing a team game). My premade has over 10 people in it. We all play together from time to time. I've played with some over 100 games and some 3-5 games. I try to play a little every night when I can.

I accept challenges from other premades and search when out of game for premades to play against. When there is not a premade available, I do not wait around 30 minutes for a game. I host a game or someone in my premade hosts a game. I have hosted premade specific games and if no one joins after 5 minutes, host a game that is less descriptive so more people might join. You can call that deceitful, but I call it trying to get a game going because I enjoy playing demigod.

Why don't you try hosting a 5v5 premade only lobby and let me know how long it takes to fill up for you? Just wait it out. What's that? 10 minutes have gone by and your lobby is completely empty? Why not try a 4v4 premade and tell one of your buds to take a hike? Oh, you tried that too and your lobby is still empty? You'd rather just get a game going instead of playing the exciting lobby game? Well, sorry, you're a jerk. You should wait it out. Especially if you want to play with your friends. That's only ok if you don't play with your friends all of the time.

Anyway, I also often break off my from my premade just to do PUG only games and even then I often have people jump in and accuse whoever joined my team of being a premade. Which often causes whoever is in my lobby to leave.

So, that's all I have to say about this for a whole 5 minutes. You may have a problem with premades but I think you should take a break from busting their chops. Now. Consider going after people that actually deserve grief. Belier and Apika are still around exploiting the shite out of the sytem. Our ladder rank #1 guy still playing in Pantheon games against AI only. And I still play on a team and Pug from time to time. Get your priorites right at least.

And now for a few of the people who have righted wrongs today by busting up games I've been in that were not labeled to their specifications, thereby justifying their poor behavior FTW!

Waiting for about 4 minutes after Dielan joined, called premade when the lobby was full and immediately quit.

We had a game up, people joined, chemdude joined, he did his premade cheer and successfully emptied our full lobby. So, we got to wait an additional 10 minutes for it to fill back up.

+161 Karma | 95 Replies

I think I've played more 5v5s than any other group. We tried labelling it 5v5 Premade. You can check my record to see how well that went.

I knew that comment would get your attention, Poly.

Seriously though... in most competitive activities, sports, games, etc., the best players/teams are routinely matched against each other to determine who is truly the most skilled. Premade 'teams' in Demigod don't technically count since they aren't ranked as one entity, but only individually. Thus, those players that are super high-ranked can only really compete against each other, and they've realized this, which may explain their unwillingness to play each other, and instead play together against teams that are hardly qualified to face them. If they enjoy that sort of thing, then that's not really my business.

Seriously, seriously though... I have no problem or issue in the slightest playing with or against anyone on my premade. I actually find that fun. Does everyone on my premade share that attitude? No. I played 2 games 2 days ago against ladder ranked number 2 (part of my premade). So, hopefully you'll accept that as evidience that perhaps highly ranked people do play each other for fun and competition. But, also consider this. If someone on my team hates playing against his team for whatever reason, I'm not going to force them to play against their team. Especially considering these guys are my buds and are willing to make time to hang out and play games with me. So, if a pug jumps into one my lobbies and asks us to split up, I, of course, will side with what my premade would like to do.

These griefers are acting badly, but the solution is to consistently and truthfully advertise the game you are hosting as premade or PUG. Period.

The fact that you have to wait longer for a premade game to fill should tell you that a lot of people are not looking for that type of game. It's disingenuous to change the game description, erodes your credibility, and, to an extent, justifies what these griefers are doing. Some solo players don't mind joining a premade game if they know it going in, but others really do, so you need to ensure you've given them that choice.

Demigod may get better match-making someday and alleviate this problem, but until then, truth in advertising is healthier for the community.

Quoting pacov,

reply 51

I think I've played more 5v5s than any other group. We tried labelling it 5v5 Premade. You can check my record to see how well that went.
I knew that comment would get your attention, Poly.

I like being the evidence 5v5s work fine. (especially since the 5 of us were on a LAN on the same network) And that 5v5 Premade never works. It would have to be pre-arranged.

Quoting Exotigo,

reply 43

I find it shocking that anyone would think the addition of ingame stats check would be detrimental to the community. All players should have the right to know who they're playing against, their win percentage and disconnects, and their familiarity with other teammates. Stats check won't kill the game, in fact I think it'll bolster it. It's probably safe to say that most Demigod players are puggers, so it's assuredly a feature that most would benefit from. I play premade about 25-30% of the time, and let's be honest with ourselves -- the only reason we'd fear this update is the inability to 'trick' players (read: noobs) into a game without full disclosure (in order to get a game started without having to wait a century, or for an easy win). It's actually quite shameful. When we play as premade teams, we should be prepared to accept the consequences of seeking out matches with puggers, especially if we aren't forthcoming about our premade.

Several posters on this thread have suggested that everyone is alt-tabbing to check stats these days. I beg to differ -- I'm pretty sure many of them are either too lazy or just aren't aware they can even check stats online. A lot of them are noobs. So when this update is released, all of a sudden players will start demanding balanced teams, which by their very nature premades are opposed to since they don't want to split up. This will be a problem for premades -- but not for most Demigod players. My hope is that this update will encourage more evenly matched games, because those are by far the most fun.

^This. Again, the problem is not premades; the issue is that people want balanced teams. In-game access to win %, premade data, etc. should be good for the community and rid us of a lot of the suspicion that has poisoned the game. I've never heard of a game failing because it had visible in-game stats.

Quoting brjoha,

reply 52

These griefers are acting badly, but the solution is to consistently and truthfully advertise the game you are hosting as premade or PUG. Period.

The fact that you have to wait longer for a premade game to fill should tell you that a lot of people are not looking for that type of game. It's disingenous to change the game description, erodes your credibility, and, to an extent, justifies what these griefers are doing. Some solo players don't mind joining a premade game if they know it going in, but others really do, so you need to ensure you've given them that choice.

Demigod may get better match-making somday and alleviate this problem, but until then, truth in advertising is healthier for the community.

Many fair points here, brjoha. As I tried to point out earlier, a premade team does not ensure that a PUG stomp will occur if they fight Pugs or that the PUG will be up against superior competition. Indicating otherwise is a negative, over generalized concept that vilifies any team that does not follow X rules that a Pug decides without having any input. It justifies poor behavior on the part of the pug because they are victim being abused. Its just a straw man argument. The magic list of rules that makes premades ok can go on and on (a premade is ok IF). As premades are generally vilified (as any match against most pugs is considered a PUG stomp), hosting a premade game to play on the same side as a few of my friends is considered unfair unless that team plays only premade teams. As I've indicated, its not possible to have premade matches in every game I play. I've indicated that I play with my team, against my team, as a pug myself and with my team against pugs. I play in every form possible. I disagree that hosting a premade game without a premade indicator is wrong and the will continue to be a point of disagreement. The general community has created the attitude that a team (in a team based game) fighting against another team of individuals that don't know each other is unfair and wrong. If teams provide such a huge, uneven advantage, I find it baffling to think that pugs would not want the same benefits.

Even saying that, I can still see your point. BUT - the overlay is being added. Do you also suggeest that with that information freely available in game (instead of just alt+tab like it is today), premade still needs to be in the title?

The general community has created the attitude that a team (in a team based game) fighting against another team of individuals that don't know each other is unfair and wrong. If teams provide such a huge, uneven advantage, I find it baffling to think that pugs would not want the same benefits.

The heart of the issue isn't that folks hate teamwork--that's a disingenous argument to make. The problem is that, currently, pres have a significant advantage in coordianting their teamwork. With a PUG you have to work it out, on the fly, without the benefit of voice chat--something Pres do not suffer from. As a PUG I'd be *thrilled* to have the same benefits but there is no way, as things are currently implemented, for me to get these advantages with my random teammates.

I'm of the opinion that the premade label isn't needed once the ingame stats drop *assuming they can be accessed in the lobby*. Frogboy's screenshot shows it while the connections are being made and the game has effectively already began.

Reminiscing back to my Guild Wars days (no ingame voice-chat there either), this usally got solved for pugs by someone posting login-details to a vent-server in chat.

A small change that might result in games with better overall coordination: Allow copying text from chat.

Quoting pacov,

reply 55

Even saying that, I can still see your point. BUT - the overlay is being added. Do you also suggest that with that information freely available in game (instead of just alt+tab like it is today), premade still needs to be in the title?

I would argue yes, that it is still a good thing to do.

Providing some statistics in the connections overlay is an expeditious way to partially address the match-making issues of DG, but a player still has to join a game before all the criteria he/she's using to select a game is available. If you qualify the type of game in the game title, you can help avoid at least some of the inevitable lobby joins and leaves, saving everyone some time.

I don't feel I'm making a disingenous argument here nor am I trying to belittle those who disagree with me. I simply suggest that if people generally agree that premades have advantages, it's somewhat surprizing that people are not forming teams or focussed on getting voicechat for their pug. I'd gladly wait an extra 5 minutes in a lobby for people to connect to a vent or teamspeak server so they could have the same benefit.

I have an example of how much people are afraid of premades, I was in the lobby the other day with another 4 or 5 players. Then I decided to change sides from darkness to light (just because), 5 seconds latter it was only me and the host, everyone left on the fear we were premade.

Now, I don´t like playing PUG against premade either, it's almost certain death, because of the random teamates you get. A bunch of people (like me) don't have premades, so we are stuck on PUG, and we have to avoid premades to have a chance of winning. I would only play against a premade if me, my teamates and the premade have similar stats. And that´s what the overlay will solve. I join a room and see all good players on the other team, my team is a bunch of noobs (myself included), I'll ask for balance or just leave. But if our stats are similiar, I'll play any premade on earth. No need to specify premade on the title.

Kudos to the overlay

I would only play against a premade if me, my teamates and the premade have similar stats. And that´s what the overlay will solve. I join a room and see all good players on the other team, my team is a bunch of noobs (myself included), I'll ask for balance or just leave. But if our stats are similiar, I'll play any premade on earth. No need to specify premade on the title.

And I think your logic makes good sense and is quite reasonable (IMO).

I'm not sure why you and players like you wouldn't want to form a premade. I've found that playing in one has made me a much better player. You eventually build up a rhythm with your team where you know pretty much what you can expect from your team. With pugs, there is always the random factor (including some jerk chewing you out because you are a noob or you did something wrong or).

I didn't just happen to have 10 of my closest friends around and we formed a team. I met individual players, 1 by 1. I started playing more with them, hosted my own vent server (free and easy to do), and slowly formed a team. Or if you are ok with less control, there are free vent servers that are already hosted out there right now that you could use immediately. The vent server is what I use to know if my team is online. I look, I see 1 guy waiting, or 2 guys in game, and I pop in on them. It goes a long way towards being able to play with people when everyone has different schedules.

I suggest 1 thing to all puggers out there - take a little more time in a lobby to get voice chat up and running.

Here's all the info you need on getting ventrillo up and running along with a public dg server (https://forums.demigodthegame.com/362211/ thanks go out to CallTheVoid).

Here is where you can download the client (its free): http://www.ventrilo.com/download.php

Here are instructions on how to use ventrilo to connect to a server: http://www.ventrilo.com/faq.php

And here's the needed server info:

Sever name: chi05.hurricanehost.com
Port: 4636

Best of all, you can setup all this ventrillo stuff now if you want and then just click a button later to connect the server. If you are even someone interested in this, I'd recommend download and configuring ventrillo now.

I'd suggest hosting some games like XvX Ventrillo and provide the servername and port when people join. The more people we get doing this the better as I'd imagine it would raise the competition up a knotch.

And a final word here - pugs are, of course, completely welcome to play the game however they see fit. I think adding voice would go a long distance in coordinating your pick up games.

So much to comment here I wont bother. It would take too long

Personally I love playing Premades. Such a fun challenge

Quoting _Golgoth_,

reply 62

So much to comment here I wont bother. It would take too long

Personally I love playing Premades. Such a fun challenge

No freaking kidding. ... and back to work for me.

I'm not sure why you and players like you wouldn't want to form a premade.

I do want to form a premade, I think everybody does. I'm just new to the game, had it for a month or so, maybe it's the same for the other pugers.

The game interface also doesn't help, I would like to see if my friends are alredy playing, or in the lobby (so I can join the same room), etc...

On top of that I'm from South America, so it's a bit hard to find people with acceptable pings

And thankyou very much for the Ventrillo information, I'll set it up today and see if it improves my game experience.

Quoting pacov,

reply 61

I think that a lot of players are simply casuals, who want to play when they want to play, not simply when their friends are online. At least that's how I am. I am not committed to any game enough to have a friends list or designated playing times. And while ventrillo is a great idea for more serious team player, I personally have no desire to actually speak with random internet people about a game. Just a personal preference.

Anyhow, kudos to you, Pacov, for at least trying to understand pugs' feelings about premades, as well as the real need for the in-game stats system.

I must be the only pre-made player with a microphone who doesnt use it,, the way i found people to play with was to host games and then see who did well who did poorly, and then when the game is over you can rehost with the same title and if the people you played with liked your game and the way you played they'll rejoin and you'll have lots of people to add to your friends list in no time.

I appreciate the note pacov and I apologize as well.

I don't particularly like posting on game forums, but I feel I can offer a personal opinion here. I'm a fairly non competitive pugger with above 50% wins. I don't have an interest in forming a team and taking the game more seriously, but I do get sort of bored of the frequent low level playing in pug games. I also don't usually bother looking up stats.

I usually avoid premades. This isn't because I feel that I have a significant disadvantage without voice chat, but because most other decent players also avoid playing against premades. Against premades, I almost invariably get paired with one or two noobs, likely because they might not be aware of what premades are.

If I can see other people's stats without having to alt tab to pantheon, I'll probably play against premades more often. I'll now be able to request that noobs be booted, and I'll be able to play with better teams in more competitive games.

Whenever I see the lobby with at least 2 premades who won't fight each other even though they'd chosen the same map etc. I get the feeling that most premades only want to PuG stomp.

Sadly, most players enjoy stomping the other team more than they would enjoy a fair challenge. I too was in such a "bad" premade but I was trying really hard to get them to play other premades, without success. After leaving quickly, I'm on the other side now and try to avoid such "bad" premades as much as possible until I can see if my teammates and I are up to the challenge.

The new info in the lobby will help quite a lot. Demigod has lost enough players due to unfair matchups.

pacov, this does in no way mean your premade is such a bad one, quite the contrary, you just seem to be the exception.

Quoting Makeshift-D,

reply 67

I'll now be able to request that noobs be booted, and I'll be able to play with better teams in more competitive games.

Just be cautious in how you use the statistics to define a noob. In their current incarnation, they do not accurately reflect true skill. Your best bet is to just look at total games played and assume those with 100+ have enough experience to know how to play decently.

100% PUGer here since release. I just wanted to respond to one specific issue pacov mentioned then just touch generally on my thoughts on Pugs and Premades as well as the new overlay system that is pending. WARNING - LOTS OF TEXT INCOMING

Join their game. Wait until its full. In chat, write, fing premade and leave (see picks of dielan and chemdude8 doing their version of this tonight 9/29/2009 - keeping the world safe for new players)

I just wanted to throw it out there that maybe these people aren't purposefully waiting till its full to leave, they could be just trying to look up who their playing against so they can get an idea of the skill level of the game. I do not agree with the "fing premade" comments (either stay or leave, you don't need to be dramatic about it) but otherwise keep in mind you might have a player that joins in the last 1-2 slots, alt tabs to look up some people and then decides to quit when its full because he just realized hes going to get rolled after playing 3 games in a row where he did get stomped. No one, not even people playing for fun, like to lose. Some may tolerate it better but I don't know a single person that would be happy with a record of 1-99 out of 100 games.

Now on to some random thoughts...

1. Life of a pug'er. People that are playing in premades don't always understand what its like playing exclusively as a PUGer. Even if you mainly play premades but you occasionally play in pugs, its not the same. You still get your premade fix of communication and success. But a full time PUGer might be stuck in situations where they lose consistently for days in a row and every game seems to start off the same.

Here is a theorteical situation that applies to PUGS joining PREMADES ONLY (this does not apply to pug vs pug). Those of you that are long time PUGers will relate with me on this. I guess you could consider this a QQ story but im just putting it out there:

As a PUG joining a premade game, it is reasonable to say there is a good chance it's not your first game of the day. You already tried to find PUG games and maybe even got one but it always comes down to the fact that the only game open is a premade waiting to fill. You recognize the host and you know how it will most likely go but you join anyways because you want to play demigod and you have that faint glimmer of hope that maybe you got team players on your side and it could be a good game. You join and sit there in a silent room, already knowing the other side is communicating out-of-game, planning what their going to do or even just random bullshitting. Rejoice, player 6 out of 8 (4v4) joins after 10 minutes and you alt tab out to look at his stats. Meh. By the time you get back, you have 8/8 and quickly tab out again to check at least one more player. Meh. Oh everyone is screaming to ready up, you forgoe looking up the last person and ready up, deciding to take the gamble.

The game starts, things are looking ok. Oh wait, theres death #1 to mr UB. You hold your tongue and trudge on. Death #2 to TB. You speak up, "Be a bit more careful guys, this is a premade these guys are good". No response. You speak up again, "anyone save up for Fort 1?". No response. You already saved up for it like you always do. You buy. Death #3 its UB again. Death #4 oh its sedna at least she lasted this long. You say, "anyone have some gold for Currency 1?". No response. You of course already have the money or at least 1k but were just hoping there was another team player around that may actually spend some of their money on the team and not themselves. You buy. You still only have monks or 1 piece of gear. You watch your UB teammate with his high HP trudge mindlessly into a creep wave at level 5 to approach a full health enemy. He just got sniped. "Why isn't he pulling back" you think to yourself. Your trying to get there but you just bought Currency 1 so your not close. He dies. You take a glance at your speedy sedna/tb teammate in the other lane..."Wow hes actually going after this PRE, past the towers that are nuking his face off, that just locked the flag". You call out in chat "watch out from behind". No Response. UB Killer just ported over to that locked flag. PRE ----- PUG ----- PRE sandwhich. He dies. UB quits, you got an AI now. ETC ETC ETC ETC game over. You chug a beer and move on to the next game because you love demigod and you will keep playing it no matter what.

^--- Yes it doesn't always happen this way, but at least a piece of that story will apply to a PUGers game more often than not. Most of us aren't looking for sympathy. We don't want handouts. What we really want is that FIX that PREs get, at least some of the time. Maybe its winning, maybe its people that communicate...maybe all you want is for someone else to say "I got currency 1".

When you take into consideration the above, you can imagine why some people rage about PREs. I don't, I just move on with my life. But it's not that easy for all of us.

2. overlays. I look at it this way. Overlays will help by getting critical information to people faster so they can make more informed decisions before a game starts. Maybe it will be harder for PRE's to get games going, maybe it won't. But what PREs could do is help out the PUGS is this: You now have easy access to the information from overlays. Kick the disconnectors (if it shows in overlays) and the 1-99 record holders. Make the game more interesting for the yourself and the rest of us. Believe it or not PREs, there are PUGs that don't mind playing you IF certain conditions are ment. As a regular pug, all I ask is that my teammates meet a few criteria.

They don't have an insanely high disconnect rate which will most likely turn into AI shortly after the game starts. (not sure if this will show up in the overlay...the screenshot doesn't show it but I hope it will be there.)
They don't have a 1-99 record.
They type in game (communicate)

Thats what I would want vs premades. pugs vs pugs, I dont care. You can lose 90% of the time thats fine, good teammates can balance that out with some extra effort. Vs premades, your just food for them and they will be unforgiving.

to aviper9

For describing the puger's life so well.

I whole-heartedly agree with aviper9. I play both PUG/premade (probably a 60/40 ratio, depending on my need for a Demigod fix in any given week), and I know exactly what he's talking about. Good description, kudos, .

Just so I don't change sides though, I do think the overlay will hurt premades. Only in that EVERY premade (it seems to me) is a PUG stomper in the mind of PUGgers. Until people start giving some of the what? Nicer? premades a chance, the new interface will make it harder to get matches going. I think

Quoting AKillerWhale,

reply 42

I sort of agree with generalkazar. kazar might be slightly exagerrating but I do share some of his concerns.

I hope I am exagerrating. The only way to know for sure is see what happens when this patch occurs.

I PUG about 95% of my games, play with one guy on and off (very occasionally) even though our 3rd+ is always random. All I ask for is truth in advertising. I don't mind losing (too much), I just hate the stomps... especially when a team has to be dishonest to pull it off.

Guess I'll be stat-checking a little more often.

Thanks for accepting my apology as well.

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New overlays and premades – TAKE THAT YOU PREMADE JERKS!

A pacov rant