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Demigod: So much for piracy

By on April 29, 2009 12:15:08 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

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If I wrote a post saying that Demigod sales were far below what we had hoped for and I said that the reason was due to piracy and that the answer was that we should have put some nasty copy protection on those DVDs to have prevented early piracy what do you think people would say?

I know what my answer to that would be.  I would say that Stardock couldn’t blame poor sales on piracy but rather the fact that the game’s built-in multiplayer match-making was totally broken for the first day of release due to its underestimation of network resources that a mainstream game would take and even when that got addressed, the multiplayer match-making for two weeks and counting has been incredibly flakey which affected reviews and word of mouth.  That’s what I would say.

And yet…

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23381\

Demigod debuts at #3 for top selling PC games at retail – bearing in mind that that was a partial week and that the majority of units sold were digital sales which weren’t counted.

But…but…what about those hundreds of thousands of pirates? Yep. Demigod is heavily pirated. And make no mistake, piracy pisses me off.  If you’re playing a pirated copy right now, if you’re one of those people on Hamachi or GameRanger playing a pirated copy and have been for more than a few days, then you should either buy it or accept that you’re a thief and quit rationalizing it any other way.

The reality that most PC game publishers ignore is that there are people who buy games and people who don’t buy games. The focus of a business is to increase its sales.  My job, as CEO of Stardock, is not to fight worldwide piracy no matter how much it aggravates me personally. My job is to maximize the sales of my product and service and I do that by focusing on the people who pay my salary – our customers.

As Ars Technica quoted over a year ago:

"The reason why we don't put copy protection on our games isn't because we're nice guys. We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates. Pirates don't count," Wardell argues. "When Sins popped up as the #1 best selling game at retail a couple weeks ago, a game that has no copy protect whatsoever, that should tell you that piracy is not the primary issue."

Even Demigod, a game that shipped with no copy protection on the DVD, was massively pirated, and has had, to put it mildly severe launch issues with its multiplayer match-making which has had a negative impact on its Metacritic score has still managed to debut at the top of retail sales charts  (not counting our digital sales).

Why is that?  At that point I can only speculate but the first reason is pretty straight forward: Demigod is an awesome game. Second, while the multiplayer matchmaking that comes with the game currently sucks, our customers know it will get fixed. Part of that is the demographic of Stardock customers. They’re more experienced, they know that some of the issues with the MP matchmaking aren’t due to rushing the game out or negligence but rather the fact that complicated systems sometimes don’t scale well and there is no substitute for time when it comes to fix them.

I think there are many lessons to be learned from Demigod.  For example, if I had to do it over again, I would be inclined to require a valid user account to play LAN even if it only has to be validated one time. That way, we could also make it a lot easier for a legal user to have a LAN party with a single license. Anyone who has played Demigod on Game Ranger probably knows what and why I'm bringing that up.

When the focus of energy is put on customers rather than fighting pirates, you end up with more sales.  It seems common sense to me but then again, I’m just an engineer.

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May 14, 2009 7:45:35 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting floodiastus,


So culture must have a complex message to convey for it to be culture? I think you need to read up on the meaning of a few words man.

You were arguing that "oh noes, we can't deny the poor neglected children access to culture, let them pirate things!"

Games != great works of culture.  Sorry, they're just not.  A few of them have reached roughly the level of a mid-20th century pulp novel, and that's about the peak of it.  Games are not a "cultural experience", they're an entertaining distraction.  They don't enrich your life (unless your life is pretty empty to start with).  Video games really have not added anything of value to modern-day culture. 

Wikipedia has the following definition of culture:

However, the word "culture" is most commonly used in three basic senses:

  • excellence of taste in the fine arts and humanities, also known as high culture
  • an integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning
  • the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group. 

I don't see video games fitting into any of those.  I think that video games have a culture of their own, but they have not contributed anything significant to the wider culture of the world.
 

Maybe pirating stuff just because you cant wait to play them is some thing you do,

It's not.  I was illustrating a point.  I've bought every game I've played in the last 5 years.

but I take it that you do agree that piracy IS ok if the person pirating it would not be buying it anyway (would not be saving up for it regardless)?

Nope.  There's always, always the possibility that the person pirating would actually buy the product in the future.  That possibility is lost once they pirate it, because why would they bother to buy it if they already have a fully-functional copy, and can spend their cash on something they don't already have?

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May 14, 2009 9:53:19 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting SimRex,

Quoting floodiastus, reply 24

So culture must have a complex message to convey for it to be culture? I think you need to read up on the meaning of a few words man.


You were arguing that "oh noes, we can't deny the poor neglected children access to culture, let them pirate things!"

Games != great works of culture.  Sorry, they're just not.  A few of them have reached roughly the level of a mid-20th century pulp novel, and that's about the peak of it.  Games are not a "cultural experience", they're an entertaining distraction.  They don't enrich your life (unless your life is pretty empty to start with).  Video games really have not added anything of value to modern-day culture. 

Wikipedia has the following definition of culture:


However, the word "culture" is most commonly used in three basic senses:


excellence of taste in the fine arts and humanities, also known as high culture
an integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning
the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group. 

I don't see video games fitting into any of those.  I think that video games have a culture of their own, but they have not contributed anything significant to the wider culture of the world.
 

Maybe pirating stuff just because you cant wait to play them is some thing you do,

It's not.  I was illustrating a point.  I've bought every game I've played in the last 5 years.


but I take it that you do agree that piracy IS ok if the person pirating it would not be buying it anyway (would not be saving up for it regardless)?


Nope.  There's always, always the possibility that the person pirating would actually buy the product in the future.  That possibility is lost once they pirate it, because why would they bother to buy it if they already have a fully-functional copy, and can spend their cash on something they don't already have?

Well there have been several people on this forum claiming they pirated it first, liked it and bought it so it can work both ways.

If you want to quote wikipedia:

"Video game culture is a form of new media culture that has been influenced by video games. As computer and video games have increased exponentially in popularity over time, they have caused significant impact upon popular culture. This form of entertainment has spawned many fads. Video game culture has evolved in time, particularly in connection with internet culture. Today, one can see the impact of computer and video games in politics, television, popular music, and Hollywood."

 

So not only is video games culture, it is highly influential in all new cultural shapes.

 

 

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May 14, 2009 11:10:18 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

From your source, Video Game Culture feeds into Popular Culture.  Follow the link to Popular Culture from your own post there.  Now look back at what I've said.  Popular culture != high quality culture.  Ergo, poor people pirating video games does not promote the spread of high quality culture among poor people. 

Nothing more to add really, except to point out that only a handful of the hundreds of thousands of pirates has posted on here to say that they bought the game.  Sample size is far too small to make any point at all there...

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May 14, 2009 11:37:31 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting db0,

The developers say that they consider piracy is stealing. The counter argument you have made is that you know the true definition and implied meaning of the words, stealing and piracy and the developers are incorrect.
There's nothing "at face value" for people to accept. I've made 5 pages of argumentation showing why the developers were wrong.


Further when someone calls you out on it, and points out that you have in reality used a straw mans argument in which you “create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position,” your solution is to attack the person?
You still don't understand the straw man fallacy. I didn't substitute the developers argument because the developers had no argument just an assertion that I challenged.

Back to Argumentation 101 with you

Your definition of stealing is incorrect.

Regarding the straw man argument you substituted the developers argument, you are applying your definition for words and dictating the argument in such a manner so that you sound correct. However you have twisted the original proposition which is that by pirating the code you are stealing it, per Stardocks definition.

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May 14, 2009 1:16:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Games != great works of culture. Sorry, they're just not. A few of them have reached roughly the level of a mid-20th century pulp novel, and that's about the peak of it. Games are not a "cultural experience", they're an entertaining distraction. They don't enrich your life (unless your life is pretty empty to start with). Video games really have not added anything of value to modern-day culture.

 

You really need to go play the Baldur's Gate trilogy.  If that isn't of the level of a fine novel, I don't know what is.

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May 14, 2009 1:36:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm just going to restate, I do love video games - I wouldn't be on this forum if I didn't...  I consider Bioware's output to be towards the top end of what games have produced so far (which, going back to my earlier point, is why I'd hate to see piracy ultimately force change upon the games industry, as Bioware-esque RPGs would be among the first things to die out), and I believe there are even better things to come in the future.  One day, maybe someone *will* create a game that will endure as long as, for example, the works of Shakespeare.  However, as it stands, I don't think there's a single video game around today that will even be remembered by anyone in 100 years.

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May 14, 2009 7:11:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting SimRex,
From your source, Video Game Culture feeds into Popular Culture.  Follow the link to Popular Culture from your own post there.  Now look back at what I've said.  Popular culture != high quality culture.  Ergo, poor people pirating video games does not promote the spread of high quality culture among poor people. 

Nothing more to add really, except to point out that only a handful of the hundreds of thousands of pirates has posted on here to say that they bought the game.  Sample size is far too small to make any point at all there...

You are pretty high up on your throne if you see yourself as a decider between what is high quality  culture and some lower form of culture.

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May 14, 2009 9:45:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Who decides what is right and wrong here? From the laws perspective, from GODS perspective, yours, or mine?

 

Fuzzy ground here

 

Exactly, the problem no one seems to be grasping while arguing back and forth over stupidity.  If they cause no harm, who are we to call it wrong?  Using secondary definitions grounded in pop culture expressions like stealing a kiss as a way to label it as theft is simple stupidity, but the root concept is that it's somehow wrong regardless of whether it's harmful to anyone.

 

You can however call them a mooch, because you are a mooch if you get something for free off the work of others.

 

Jwinston, I'd insult your intellect, but cruelty to animals generally isn't something I partake in.

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May 15, 2009 2:37:49 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You are pretty high up on your throne if you see yourself as a decider between what is high quality  culture and some lower form of culture.

I never claimed to be the one to decide what's high quality culture or not - academics have already decided, I'm just stating fairly well established fact.  Have a read the Popular Culture article on Wikipedia (which you kindly linked to in your post above).  It essentially supports what I've been saying.

Critics of television and film have argued that the quality of TV output has been diluted as stations relentlessly pursue "populism and ratings" by focusing on the "glitzy, the superficial, and the popular." In film, "Hollywood culture and values" are increasingly dominating film production in other countries. Hollywood films have changed from focusing on scriptwriting and dialogue to creating formulaic films which emphasize "...shock-value and superficial thrill[s]" and special effects, with themes that focus on the "...basic instincts of aggression, revenge, violence, [and] greed." The plots "...often seem simplistic, a standardised template taken from the shelf, and dialogue is minimal." The "characters are shallow and unconvincing, the dialogue is also simple, unreal, and badly constructed."

Pretty sure all those criticisms apply to video games too...  Formulaic? Check.  Basic instincts of aggression, revenge, violence and greed?  Check.  Minimal dialogue?  Depends on the game, but mostly.  Check.  Shallow, unconvincing characters?  Check.  Poor dialogue?  Again, it depends on the game, but even Bioware tend to have some pretty clunky, flat, cliched dialogue in all their games, with occassional signs of much better things.

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May 15, 2009 2:45:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Annatar11,

p.s. I say send a cylon army to deal with the pirates
This I can get behind.

No, no, no! To deal with Pirates, you need NINJAS!!!  

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May 15, 2009 6:38:50 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting SimRex,

You are pretty high up on your throne if you see yourself as a decider between what is high quality  culture and some lower form of culture.

I never claimed to be the one to decide what's high quality culture or not - academics have already decided, I'm just stating fairly well established fact.  Have a read the Popular Culture article on Wikipedia (which you kindly linked to in your post above).  It essentially supports what I've been saying.

Critics of television and film have argued that the quality of TV output has been diluted as stations relentlessly pursue "populism and ratings" by focusing on the "glitzy, the superficial, and the popular." In film, "Hollywood culture and values" are increasingly dominating film production in other countries. Hollywood films have changed from focusing on scriptwriting and dialogue to creating formulaic films which emphasize "...shock-value and superficial thrill[s]" and special effects, with themes that focus on the "...basic instincts of aggression, revenge, violence, [and] greed." The plots "...often seem simplistic, a standardised template taken from the shelf, and dialogue is minimal." The "characters are shallow and unconvincing, the dialogue is also simple, unreal, and badly constructed."

Pretty sure all those criticisms apply to video games too...  Formulaic? Check.  Basic instincts of aggression, revenge, violence and greed?  Check.  Minimal dialogue?  Depends on the game, but mostly.  Check.  Shallow, unconvincing characters?  Check.  Poor dialogue?  Again, it depends on the game, but even Bioware tend to have some pretty clunky, flat, cliched dialogue in all their games, with occassional signs of much better things.

 

So basically what you are saying is that it is more wrong to pirate shallow games, as they cannot be considered culture in the same way as great games

 

No where do they say in that article that is is any lesser form of culture. Art and Culture academics do not decide what is high quality culture either, that is not their job at all, and believing that Critics decide the value of culture is absurd.

 

I would argue though that games is a melting pot of several important cultural artforms: Images/Painting, Music, Theatrical values (dialogue, plots). Taken on their own, each individual form is very much art. But all new artforms have a hard time being considered art until the new generation that has always been around it (in this generation it will be videogames, in the last it was movies, before that it was the new musicforms, jazz etc) becomes adults.

 

Videogames have been around now for 20 years, don't be so trapped in the past.

 

 

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May 15, 2009 7:27:57 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

So basically what you are saying is that it is more wrong to pirate shallow games, as they cannot be considered culture in the same way as great games

Nope, you're putting words in my mouth again...  You said people should be entitled to play whatever games they want, whether they can afford them or not, because they're an important cultural experience.  I'm saying that they are not an important cultural experience.  I have not stated whether I think important cultural experiences should be free or not.

I would argue though that games is a melting pot of several important cultural artforms: Images/Painting, Music, Theatrical values (dialogue, plots). Taken on their own, each individual form is very much art. But all new artforms have a hard time being considered art until the new generation that has always been around it (in this generation it will be videogames, in the last it was movies, before that it was the new musicforms, jazz etc) becomes adults.

Video games are currently sitting at the shallow end of every single cultural art form they borrow all their ideas from (as they have originated very few, if any, original ideas).  They aren't pushing any new boundaries, they aren't exploring anything new, they're just rehashing it in a digital format.  As I've said above, eventually they may start to reach further and actually provide some cultural significance, but for now they're just disposable fantasies.

Videogames have been around now for 20 years, don't be so trapped in the past.

They've been around quite a bit longer than 20 years...  My parents were playing Space Invaders on an Atari 2600 in the early eighties!  That doesn't change the fact that there isn't a single game around today that will mean anything to anyone in 100 years.  There's not enough substance to endure.  They're just toys.  That may change some day, but it still seems a long way off to me.

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May 15, 2009 2:00:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting psychoak,

Who decides what is right and wrong here? From the laws perspective, from GODS perspective, yours, or mine?
 

Fuzzy ground here

 

Exactly, the problem no one seems to be grasping while arguing back and forth over stupidity.  If they cause no harm, who are we to call it wrong?  Using secondary definitions grounded in pop culture expressions like stealing a kiss as a way to label it as theft is simple stupidity, but the root concept is that it's somehow wrong regardless of whether it's harmful to anyone.

 

You can however call them a mooch, because you are a mooch if you get something for free off the work of others.

 

Jwinston, I'd insult your intellect, but cruelty to animals generally isn't something I partake in.

 

 

The problem you seem to not grasp is that I am not talking about whether this is right or wrong nor have I suggested this in any of my previous comments. Of course you ignore this and instead attack me because you have no argument. A quick hint attacking a person does not make you sound smart, reinforce your argument, or make you correct.

 

 

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May 15, 2009 3:52:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting SimRex,

So basically what you are saying is that it is more wrong to pirate shallow games, as they cannot be considered culture in the same way as great games

Nope, you're putting words in my mouth again...  You said people should be entitled to play whatever games they want, whether they can afford them or not, because they're an important cultural experience.  I'm saying that they are not an important cultural experience.  I have not stated whether I think important cultural experiences should be free or not.


I would argue though that games is a melting pot of several important cultural artforms: Images/Painting, Music, Theatrical values (dialogue, plots). Taken on their own, each individual form is very much art. But all new artforms have a hard time being considered art until the new generation that has always been around it (in this generation it will be videogames, in the last it was movies, before that it was the new musicforms, jazz etc) becomes adults.

Video games are currently sitting at the shallow end of every single cultural art form they borrow all their ideas from (as they have originated very few, if any, original ideas).  They aren't pushing any new boundaries, they aren't exploring anything new, they're just rehashing it in a digital format.  As I've said above, eventually they may start to reach further and actually provide some cultural significance, but for now they're just disposable fantasies.


Videogames have been around now for 20 years, don't be so trapped in the past.

They've been around quite a bit longer than 20 years...  My parents were playing Space Invaders on an Atari 2600 in the early eighties!  That doesn't change the fact that there isn't a single game around today that will mean anything to anyone in 100 years.  There's not enough substance to endure.  They're just toys.  That may change some day, but it still seems a long way off to me.

 

Your predictions on IF we may remember some of today games in the future is totally insignificant though, as we cannot know that. Just because you dont appreciate games as cultural art, does not mean others do not experience it as such. The world does not revolve around you or your opinions. If someone believes something to be art, it is for that person. 

You seem to be living in a world where there is "real" culture because some critic says it is.

 

 

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May 15, 2009 4:07:14 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Your predictions on IF we may remember some of today games in the future is totally insignificant though, as we cannot know that. Just because you dont appreciate games as cultural art, does not mean others do not experience it as such. The world does not revolve around you or your opinions. If someone believes something to be art, it is for that person. [/quote]

 

You seem to be living in a world where there is "real" culture because some critic says it is.

I never claimed anything revolved around my opinions.  I'm living in a world where thousands of people devote themselves to the study of fine art and literature, and video games are *not* on the curriculum.  

I don't see how anyone can believe that today's video games are going to stand the test of time and become part of the greater tapestry of human culture.  They're just not up to that standard that will enable them to endure.  For one brief slice of time, people may love them, but they will be replaced and forgotten within a lifetime like so many 90s pop stars.

However, we're stuck at an impasse here.  You're never going to convince me, and I'm never going to convince you.  We both know there's nothing more either of us can say to change the other's minds. Each of us might score small semantic points here and there, but really, we're so far off the original topic now that it really doesn't matter anymore.  Are you happy to agree to disagree on the whole subject and go on with our lives?  Or do we have to keep rebutting one another for ever?

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May 15, 2009 4:24:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting SimRex,



Your predictions on IF we may remember some of today games in the future is totally insignificant though, as we cannot know that. Just because you dont appreciate games as cultural art, does not mean others do not experience it as such. The world does not revolve around you or your opinions. If someone believes something to be art, it is for that person.


 

You seem to be living in a world where there is "real" culture because some critic says it is.


I never claimed anything revolved around my opinions.  I'm living in a world where thousands of people devote themselves to the study of fine art and literature, and video games are *not* on the curriculum.  

I don't see how anyone can believe that today's video games are going to stand the test of time and become part of the greater tapestry of human culture.  They're just not up to that standard that will enable them to endure.  For one brief slice of time, people may love them, but they will be replaced and forgotten within a lifetime like so many 90s pop stars.

However, we're stuck at an impasse here.  You're never going to convince me, and I'm never going to convince you.  We both know there's nothing more either of us can say to change the other's minds. Each of us might score small semantic points here and there, but really, we're so far off the original topic now that it really doesn't matter anymore.  Are you happy to agree to disagree on the whole subject and go on with our lives?  Or do we have to keep rebutting one another for ever?

[/quote]

 

You are right, we have to agree to disagree  

 

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May 15, 2009 5:27:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The problem you seem to not grasp is that I am not talking about whether this is right or wrong nor have I suggested this in any of my previous comments. Of course you ignore this and instead attack me because you have no argument. A quick hint attacking a person does not make you sound smart, reinforce your argument, or make you correct.

 

Ok, I'll return the favor.  A quick hint, I don't care if I sound smart.  I don't even care if I win the argument.  I have determined that you're a bleeding moron beyond any hope of educating yourself that will never accept that his dictionary disagrees with what someone else has said they think stealing is.  You may prove me wrong any time you feel like showing signs of intelligence.

 

Your "argument", as you so kindly put it, is that everyone who tells you copyright infringement isn't theft just has the wrong definition for steal.  Reality is that pop culture definitions are secondary, and unrelated to the root definition relating to theft.  They are not wrong, you are.  Since one can't argue against myth, as the idiot following it already knows he's wrong, this is as pointless as insulting you.  I'd rather amuse myself than not, if I'm going to do something pointless.

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May 17, 2009 12:07:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The definition of steal.

Keep writing you are showing how much of a class act you are.

One more point since you do not seem to comprehend the Enlish language. Here are the two definitions of transitive and intransitive verb.

In syntax, a transitive verb is a verb that requires both a direct subject and one or more objects.

In grammar, an intransitive verb does not take an object

 

Knowing this, if you "steal the code" you are using a verb that requires a subject and object, i.e. transitivie verb. If you bother to look up the definition which I have provided, which I doubt. You would read, difficult maybe?, that my definition is not pop culture but is in fact one of the major definitions for steal. However please continue on with you insults, it is funny.

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May 17, 2009 10:53:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting the dictionary wont help you.  You're still wrong.  Ideas aren't physical property.  You can't steal code unless you physically take it from the storage medium it's contained on, or take the medium itself, and deprive the owner of that code.  All definitions of steal that make this possible do not relate to theft.

 

Theft of a copy of intellectual property is possible, copying a copy is copyright infringement.  Being able to use a secondary usage for steal is irrelevant.

 

The age of the pop culture definition is academic.  Murder is an excellent example.  There are plenty of very old usages for murder as well that have absolutely nothing to do with murder.  Reading my posts can be murder.  It can be stealing too, after all you're robbed of your time whilst reading them.  Irrelevant regarding theft.

 

It's inflammatory nonsense to refute a theft versus copyright infringement argument by pointing out that a secondary definition works for calling it stealing.  Consider that from your high horse while amusing yourself with my insulting post.

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May 18, 2009 3:17:35 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting psychoak,
Quoting the dictionary wont help you.  You're still wrong.  Ideas aren't physical property.  You can't steal code unless you physically take it from the storage medium it's contained on, or take the medium itself, and deprive the owner of that code.  All definitions of steal that make this possible do not relate to theft.

 

Theft of a copy of intellectual property is possible, copying a copy is copyright infringement.  Being able to use a secondary usage for steal is irrelevant.

 

The age of the pop culture definition is academic.  Murder is an excellent example.  There are plenty of very old usages for murder as well that have absolutely nothing to do with murder.  Reading my posts can be murder.  It can be stealing too, after all you're robbed of your time whilst reading them.  Irrelevant regarding theft.

 

It's inflammatory nonsense to refute a theft versus copyright infringement argument by pointing out that a secondary definition works for calling it stealing.  Consider that from your high horse while amusing yourself with my insulting post.

 

Let us agree to disagree, I have read yours and many other viewpoints on the subject and I undestand where you are coming from. For example: http://brendanscott.wordpress.com/2008/10/27/copyright-infringement-as-stealing-pfft/ or http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/feb/21/intellectual.property

 

Regarding murder you are making my point that usage dictates definition. Reading your post is murder is an acceptable use of the word, regardless if you murdered someone.

 

 

 

 

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May 30, 2009 1:36:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Putting morality aside, I think that, as forward-thinking as Frogboy is, he and many other posters on this thread are getting left behind in social and economic development because they're letting their emotions get the better of them.

In terms of traditional morality, it is, in fact, quite true that ideas and such were not considered property until very recently in history, and in many parts of the world, it's STILL not considered property, but something that's meant to be to distributed freely.

The problem with comparing it to stealing comes not from how different ideas and software is from normal items of ownership.  The problem is that your morals keep getting in the way of good business.

 

Frogboy here speaks about getting incensed about having people play his game.  Why?  Those people aren't stealing your house.  They would never have bought the game in the first place, and they're improving word of mouth and game visibility because they like the game and endorse it to their friends.  In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say that neither Demigod, nor GalCiv II, nor Sins would have performed as well as they have if it were not for piracy - piracy is like free advertising.

 

Of course there is the business side of things; but again, I think that all this morality based entitlement to pay and monetary returns is clouding your thinking.   Does Facebook charge its users?  NO.  But despite that, Zuckerberg seems incredibly happy that they're using HIS SOFTWARE anyway.

 

This underlies a point I'm making.  Software cannot and should not be equated to traditional IPs like books and poems, not because it's morally correct, but because doing so hurts us more than it helps.  That includes you, Frogboy.

All those people who logged in with pirated copies are potential customers.  They may live somewhere in the Philippines with no more than $5 to spare on a game, but you have their complete and undivided attention.  That is worth something.  The only question you have to ask yourself is, how do I best go about monetizing this influence?

If that Filipino can spare no more than $5 on his hobby or his children starve, then asking him for $10 gets you nothing - he'll pirate the game.  However, asking for $5 gets you $5, which is more than nothing.

In Piracy and PC Gaming, Draginol makes a reference about making a game for the Chinese market, implying that the rampant piracy makes it impossible to make a game for the East Asian sphere.  That is, in fact, untrue.  Level Up Games is raking in money hand over fist in a region of the world where many people live well below Western salary standards and where piracy is rampant.

How?

They do this by focusing on monetizing their influence rather than on protecting their IP.  Most of Level Up's games aren't only free to download, they freely tell you to download it for free off their own servers and occasonally ask you to seed it on torrents.  They are essentially taking advantage of pirate technology and distribution channels to dominate the market through near 100% saturation.

But distributing a game for free doesn't mean that they skimp on quality nor does it mean that they don't make a buck - in fact, they do.

Level Up's market structure is based on microtransactions - allowing the user to tailor his experience according to what he can afford and what he likes.  Most people aren't only willing to pay up - they're HAPPY to pay up, because they like the game they're playing.

I realize that releasing a game for free in the US, say, is actually bad for business - it makes people think that your game is crap.  But what if, say, you released Demigod for $10?  That's so cheap that anyone who wants it can probably afford it, but not so cheap that people will think you're ripping them off or are shipping a bad game.

I'm not talking a sub-Demigod product here.  I'm talking the real deal - the full Demigod experience you can have right now.

 

The point of this release is to spawn awareness and to develop interest and influence.  You can monetize that influence later on by selling maps for $2 apiece and new Demigods for $5 apiece.

If, over the course of a year, your customers buy 4 new Demigods and 5 new maps (which is reasonable for a year's consumption), you will have essentially sold your game for $40!

But isn't that the same as retailing it for $40?

No.

There are people who won't be willing to buy the retail for that much - you can convince them to buy because of the lower price point, and once they're hooked on the game, $5 for a new Demigod becomes a LOT easier to sell.  Even if they don't buy anything, you will have made $10 where you would have made nothing.  And it's not like Stardock doesn't ALREADY deal in add-on software for existing programs.

 

My takeaway message here is this: piracy is a reality.  However, people playing YOUR pirated game reflects a level of influence outside your sales model that you are NOT monetizing.  Forget the morality.  Show me the money!

 

 

 

PS: on a more technical note, most hackers hack games for two reasons: profit or interest.  Whole games are attractive targets because they offer a single concrete and discrete challenge with a substantial reward.  One Demigod application add-on as a discrete code does not offer either kind of pirate as much of a return for his effort and discourages it on the most fundamental level - economic.

 

 

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June 4, 2009 7:00:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm happy you didn't put DRM on Demigod, I bought the game and I love the game, but I can tell you if there would be DRM on it, I wouldn't have bought it, because DRM is a stupid invention and bothers the honest people who pay for original copies of games more than anyone else.

DRM is the reason why I will never ever again buy a EA game for PC, because they got DRM on all their games and I hate it.

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June 5, 2009 9:27:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Shock0311,

News flash, CD Keys are DRM and the oldest form of DRM used in PC games. ANYTHING that restricts access to content so only authorized users can access it is DRM and that is EXACTLY what software CD keys do. Demigod uses these software keys therefor it has DRM.

Whoa whoa whoa. You skipped like 5+ generations of DRM when you claimed CD Keys are the oldest form of DRM.

You forgot the elustrius Disk Check (reading data outside of a standard file system for verification, dating to the Apple days, required bit by bit copies and copying files didn't work, Dan Patcher anyone?).

You're also forgetting one of my personal favorites the manual lookup! "What is the 4th word, of the 2nd paragraph, of page 25 of your game manual?"

And the Code Wheel! Two or three interlocking cardboard pieces that when provided several symbols could match up a corresponding word response!

Those were years before "CD Keys". People didn't begin doing algorithmic verification until the term Shareware started becoming popular in the early x86 days. The fact you're calling them cd keys at all proves that it's a recent term, since many games (like Warcraft: Orcs and Humans) shipped on 3½" floppy disks. Serial numbers, Unlock Codes, Authorization Keys were other terms used and still are to this day.

I do agree with your definition of DRM, but also tracking, you can track without restricting and it's still management. The most recent one is user authentication, like Stardock uses. They require you to authenticate that you are a legitimate customer to utilize their services. This is a form of digital rights management, and has become the most popular due to its personal and typically unobtrusive nature.

But lets not all forget about those methodologies of old! Ye olde code wheel, and the manual lookup! We've come a long way...

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June 5, 2009 10:21:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The fact you're calling them cd keys at all proves that it's a recent term, since many games (like Warcraft: Orcs and Humans) shipped on 3½" floppy disks.
Wow, that was on 3.5's as well as CDs?

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June 6, 2009 8:54:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's under five megs...

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