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Demigod: So much for piracy

By on April 29, 2009 12:15:08 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

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If I wrote a post saying that Demigod sales were far below what we had hoped for and I said that the reason was due to piracy and that the answer was that we should have put some nasty copy protection on those DVDs to have prevented early piracy what do you think people would say?

I know what my answer to that would be.  I would say that Stardock couldn’t blame poor sales on piracy but rather the fact that the game’s built-in multiplayer match-making was totally broken for the first day of release due to its underestimation of network resources that a mainstream game would take and even when that got addressed, the multiplayer match-making for two weeks and counting has been incredibly flakey which affected reviews and word of mouth.  That’s what I would say.

And yet…

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23381\

Demigod debuts at #3 for top selling PC games at retail – bearing in mind that that was a partial week and that the majority of units sold were digital sales which weren’t counted.

But…but…what about those hundreds of thousands of pirates? Yep. Demigod is heavily pirated. And make no mistake, piracy pisses me off.  If you’re playing a pirated copy right now, if you’re one of those people on Hamachi or GameRanger playing a pirated copy and have been for more than a few days, then you should either buy it or accept that you’re a thief and quit rationalizing it any other way.

The reality that most PC game publishers ignore is that there are people who buy games and people who don’t buy games. The focus of a business is to increase its sales.  My job, as CEO of Stardock, is not to fight worldwide piracy no matter how much it aggravates me personally. My job is to maximize the sales of my product and service and I do that by focusing on the people who pay my salary – our customers.

As Ars Technica quoted over a year ago:

"The reason why we don't put copy protection on our games isn't because we're nice guys. We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates. Pirates don't count," Wardell argues. "When Sins popped up as the #1 best selling game at retail a couple weeks ago, a game that has no copy protect whatsoever, that should tell you that piracy is not the primary issue."

Even Demigod, a game that shipped with no copy protection on the DVD, was massively pirated, and has had, to put it mildly severe launch issues with its multiplayer match-making which has had a negative impact on its Metacritic score has still managed to debut at the top of retail sales charts  (not counting our digital sales).

Why is that?  At that point I can only speculate but the first reason is pretty straight forward: Demigod is an awesome game. Second, while the multiplayer matchmaking that comes with the game currently sucks, our customers know it will get fixed. Part of that is the demographic of Stardock customers. They’re more experienced, they know that some of the issues with the MP matchmaking aren’t due to rushing the game out or negligence but rather the fact that complicated systems sometimes don’t scale well and there is no substitute for time when it comes to fix them.

I think there are many lessons to be learned from Demigod.  For example, if I had to do it over again, I would be inclined to require a valid user account to play LAN even if it only has to be validated one time. That way, we could also make it a lot easier for a legal user to have a LAN party with a single license. Anyone who has played Demigod on Game Ranger probably knows what and why I'm bringing that up.

When the focus of energy is put on customers rather than fighting pirates, you end up with more sales.  It seems common sense to me but then again, I’m just an engineer.

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July 3, 2009 4:56:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

After my Demigod and Stardock community experience i´ll pirate games before buying them.

So much for releasing shitty games. Good Job Guys

 

/2cents

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July 4, 2009 9:05:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Congratulations, son, of reviving a thread with such an insightful comment.

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July 6, 2009 4:14:47 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting IngoLatte,
After my Demigod and Stardock community experience i´ll pirate games before buying them.

Hmm, whut?! Are you not liking the game, or not liking the community. I like the community, and love the game. I can see you'd flame the game though, if bugs bother you a lot, but the community is quite alright. As far as SD themselves go, they are nice people and I for one actually like Frogboys updates, even if they sometimes promise more than they eventually deliver (which is probably 90% a money and time issue). As far as the people go, most of them are nice guys who think about the game and their responses they post on the forum, and a lot of us come up with great ideas for the game (though I doubt they will ever get a response from GPG).

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July 6, 2009 11:49:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Ingolatte that is a little ignorant. Demigod is a very good game, with a few teething problems. Have a look at how long it too DotA to get properly balanced for instance. These Hero types of strategy games are very hard to balance and often it takes a very long beta.

As for me I actually bought the game because they didn't include DRM. For the most part the money grabbing publishers like EA and co I couldn't care less about paying for their games (look at how they ruined the Need For Speed franchise). They churn out crap sequels with little to no care about the people gamers themselves. Poor after sales support with patches (most of the last 5 NFS games haven't had their major issues addressed) seals the coffin for them in terms of sales.


It's a refreshing scenario to see a developer and publisher partnership that buck the trend of the sheep crying wolf and actually fixing the problems and working with the gamers.


So a big thanks to Frogboy and the teams at Stardock and GPG for their efforts on Demigod even if things were a bit pear shaped in the beginning

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July 7, 2009 7:42:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Kaerar, you have an amazing ability to muddle your arguments.  Just because software contains DRM, that doesn't mean that developers don't care about their games, nor does it mean they churn out crap sequels with little to no care, nor does it mean they will have poor after-sale support.  Put simply, not a single thing you've listed is relevant, not even in the least, to the decision to put DRM in.  Most people are pretty poor writers, so I'm not really surprised, but it's just a bit silly to call someone else ignorant and then proceed to try and justify your point by listing a bunch of irrelevant facts.

As far as the game not including DRM, I can appreciate that.  It's not like games like this (well, DotA is the only one that comes to mind) are fun single player anyways.  The AI is atrocious, and the game only really shines multiplayer, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to put lots of resources into preventing single player pirating.  So, fine, no DRM, that's good.  The dumb part is they allowed people with all these pirated copies to all but crash the servers just after release, and to be honest, the "we did it for you" argument seems like a dodge to me.  In my mind, DRM or not, that shouldn't have happened.

Either way, at least it's been resolved and servers are fairly stable at the moment.  

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July 8, 2009 1:12:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I can understand where you are coming from bozwell.  I too fully appreciate the effort Stardock and GPG has put into stabalizing Demigod's multiplayer, but I believe they shouldn't take the blame for their servers crashing.

 

Yes they should have been a little more prepared for the pirating issue, however it was Gamestop who released the game a day early, during Stardock's vacation time.  The devs come back the next day and realize their game has just undergone one of the worst launches because of a combination of: Demigod being multiplayer oriented, pirates, and bad retailers (lol).  I mean what could they have done to prevent something that wasn't even considered?

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July 8, 2009 1:37:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

There is, clearly, only one soltuon.

Time to go for a little drive.

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July 8, 2009 10:15:03 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting bozwell,
Kaerar, you have an amazing ability to muddle your arguments.  Just because software contains DRM, that doesn't mean that developers don't care about their games, nor does it mean they churn out crap sequels with little to no care, nor does it mean they will have poor after-sale support.  Put simply, not a single thing you've listed is relevant, not even in the least, to the decision to put DRM in.  Most people are pretty poor writers, so I'm not really surprised, but it's just a bit silly to call someone else ignorant and then proceed to try and justify your point by listing a bunch of irrelevant facts.

As far as the game not including DRM, I can appreciate that.  It's not like games like this (well, DotA is the only one that comes to mind) are fun single player anyways.  The AI is atrocious, and the game only really shines multiplayer, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to put lots of resources into preventing single player pirating.  So, fine, no DRM, that's good.  The dumb part is they allowed people with all these pirated copies to all but crash the servers just after release, and to be honest, the "we did it for you" argument seems like a dodge to me.  In my mind, DRM or not, that shouldn't have happened.

Either way, at least it's been resolved and servers are fairly stable at the moment.  

Mmmm.  I think the only one who muddled Kaerar's arguments was you. 

He stated anything about DRM automatically equating to a publisher not caring about their games.  He does cite, specifically, EA as being a money-grubbing publisher whcih doesn't care about its games.  And this much is true.  They don't.  He then continues on to discuss the NFS franchise, and how EA's desire to continually pump out the latest version, ignoring existing problems, has gone a long way to killing the franchise.  Have you had much experience with EA?  They are terrible when it comes to support.  Terrible.  You can scarcely get them to admit that an issue exists, let alone fix it in a timely manner.  Kaerar's points as well-made; you're just being a negative nancy.

As for the AI, all work has been put into multiplayer so far, which is a great success now that the connections issues have subsided.  They have clearly stated their intention to go back and develop the single game further.  The AI is not fantastic, but it is not atrocious either.  And more, how could they have anticipated how widely the game would be pirated *before* its release, and its impact on their servers?  I think it absolutely fantastic that they recovered from that and fixed that problem so quickly. 

As someone that has worked in game development, has dealt with online gaming communities from a developer's perspective and learned to hate the community, and manages software development, QA, and deployment for a living, I say StarDock and GPG have done an amazing job.

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July 22, 2009 10:41:35 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ,

If I wrote a post saying that Demigod sales were far below what we had hoped for and I said that the reason was due to piracy and that the answer was that we should have put some nasty copy protection on those DVDs to have prevented early piracy what do you think people would say?

I know what my answer to that would be.  I would say that Stardock couldn’t blame poor sales on piracy but rather the fact that the game’s built-in multiplayer match-making was totally broken for the first day of release due to its underestimation of network resources that a mainstream game would take and even when that got addressed, the multiplayer match-making for two weeks and counting has been incredibly flakey which affected reviews and word of mouth.  That’s what I would say.

And yet…

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23381\

Demigod debuts at #3 for top selling PC games at retail – bearing in mind that that was a partial week and that the majority of units sold were digital sales which weren’t counted.

But…but…what about those hundreds of thousands of pirates? Yep. Demigod is heavily pirated. And make no mistake, piracy pisses me off.  If you’re playing a pirated copy right now, if you’re one of those people on Hamachi or GameRanger playing a pirated copy and have been for more than a few days, then you should either buy it or accept that you’re a thief and quit rationalizing it any other way.

The reality that most PC game publishers ignore is that there are people who buy games and people who don’t buy games. The focus of a business is to increase its sales.  My job, as CEO of Stardock, is not to fight worldwide piracy no matter how much it aggravates me personally. My job is to maximize the sales of my product and service and I do that by focusing on the people who pay my salary – our customers.

As Ars Technica quoted over a year ago:


"The reason why we don't put copy protection on our games isn't because we're nice guys. We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates. Pirates don't count," Wardell argues. "When Sins popped up as the #1 best selling game at retail a couple weeks ago, a game that has no copy protect whatsoever, that should tell you that piracy is not the primary issue."


Even Demigod, a game that shipped with no copy protection on the DVD, was massively pirated, and has had, to put it mildly severe launch issues with its multiplayer match-making which has had a negative impact on its Metacritic score has still managed to debut at the top of retail sales charts  (not counting our digital sales).

Why is that?  At that point I can only speculate but the first reason is pretty straight forward: Demigod is an awesome game. Second, while the multiplayer matchmaking that comes with the game currently sucks, our customers know it will get fixed. Part of that is the demographic of Stardock customers. They’re more experienced, they know that some of the issues with the MP matchmaking aren’t due to rushing the game out or negligence but rather the fact that complicated systems sometimes don’t scale well and there is no substitute for time when it comes to fix them.

I think there are many lessons to be learned from Demigod.  For example, if I had to do it over again, I would be inclined to require a valid user account to play LAN even if it only has to be validated one time. That way, we could also make it a lot easier for a legal user to have a LAN party with a single license. Anyone who has played Demigod on Game Ranger probably knows what and why I'm bringing that up.

When the focus of energy is put on customers rather than fighting pirates, you end up with more sales.  It seems common sense to me but then again, I’m just an engineer.

I think I've posted about this somewhere around here long time ago, but time had passed and here's a "progress report".

There aren't just people who buy games and people who don't. There are people who buy games they like - some want to support "the good guys doing good job" others just don't like paying for junk. Those are the type who can be swayed to increase sales. Sure there are people who just buy games, and they will buy them anyway... and there are people who don't buy games and they will pirate them anyway... There's no point fighting for those, but there are customers who need effort.

That said, piracy did affect your sales... in an interesting way...

No, no and no I don't promote DRM, that junk only spoils fun and never stops piracy. How did piracy bite you then? Well a pirated game is the best demo for that "swayable customer group". No demo ever compares to full game - I know a few good examples, best one of those that come to mind atm is overlord. The demo was addictive and probably sold them many copies, the game itself promised the same thing demo did - that is a good fun for a couple of hours... I still wonder how they managed to sell overlord2...

Back to our topic - your game was pirated and observed on gameranger. To be honest I wasn't being picky and I actually bought it before the whole "gameranger for everyone". However i had to keep an unpatched version to play with the "crowd" which obviously kept it unpatched for a reason... I liked the game, but I'm not going to play it in pugs. Unlike me my friends were picky, and they didn't buy the game in the end, they just quit after a day or two. What they said is that the game is not worth buying. Poor map selection, poor demigod selection, poor balance is what I heard from them... That was waaay back at release. I want them to buy it and to play with me, but I have to persuade them to do it. That's why I return here from time to time to check out changes. I'd like to tell them "hey look the game is booming!" but I can't... Seriously, as much as I wan't them to buy it, I just can't scrape up enought arguments.

There were talks about 2 DGs for 9 bucks. How are you planing to sell them for 9 bucks when people find 8DGs + maps + core mechanics not worth the purchase? If I was "in your shoes" I'd focus on getting the current game up to level. It's been 3 months and I can't persuade my friends to buy it. From the PoV of such a customer either you released it WAAAY to early or you've been slacking WAAAY to much...

In the end we have people who bought the game they don't play, which is bad for them (or rather us) and people who didn't buy the game at all which is bad for buisness. The only "piracy" loss that can be fought against can be fought with quality.

People who aren't going to buy a game won't be able to rip the benefits of support and expansion, and that I balive stands behind many early releases in recent years. But still, to sell something one must level it's quality to par with it's price, and I repeat - many people don't count demigod in it's current state worth it's price. Selling DLC you'll get a few bucks from some of those who still play and a farewell from those who hate DLCs. Adding that (and some mundane mainteenance) as a free patch you'll get 40$ from some of those who haven't bought game yet, get some quiters back to playing, and in the end have a much bigger and happier customer base for a full-fledged expansion. Well it's your game and your budget...

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July 23, 2009 11:30:42 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

 

 

As far as myself goes: I've written a lot about what I think about this game. Nothing very interesting for anyone to read, all my opinions have been stated by other people before. All in all I really enjoy the game, but I play single player only for now so I can avoid most flaws in the game anyway.

The thing is this, and I follow Reianor completely in this: I cannot seriously recommend this game to my friends yet. I have lots of friends that have played DOTA and would love to try it. Most of them are put off by "only 8 gods" but I can convince them to reconsider when I explain that each demigod can have different builds. But if I'd convince them to buy the game now they'd be mad at me because there are features lacking and bugs still present. How can I explain doing that when they ask me about a bug and I'd have to say "Oh yeah, that's been there since beta"? My friends don't buy many games so if they do it would have to be a game really worth the money.

I really, REALLY, REALLY want this game to become the success it deserves to be, because it's so much better than DOTA in so many ways. But it still needs a last long haul of work, and GPG would be done! I know GPG has other games to work on now, but with 2 hours a week of bug fixing on Demigod it will never become a game I'd tell my friends to spend money on. PLEASE GPG, go the last mile!

That said, after a 'pirate demo' of this game I bought it and never regretted doing so for one single minute.

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July 24, 2009 3:49:47 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting RamzaBehoulve,
Imagine if the game was 10$ less like it should have been...

 

Yes I agree... Perhaps they should offer a price that makes the complications with copying not worth it... Or, offer a pre-order price cheap to grab a big upfront market before release.

I was waiting weeks for the game to be released, and when I bought it and installed it, imagine how much hair I ripped out when the MP just was not happening.... and then the waiting for the fixes.... I wanted my money back IMMEDIATELY and told all my mates 'not worth buying' 

Yeah, sure I love the game now, and we're getting much better connection now, though still there's probs. It's crazy when you nearly have a match to go and everyone gets hit with an unhandled exception. So still, when people ask me what the game is like, I say, "The game is awesome... but only if you don't mind waiting up to 30 mins to start a match"

If the game was $20 upon release, you may have sold triple the copies, and everyone would have been saying..."Awesome game with bugs, but a great price and they're fixing it."

Love the game.

Angry about the hours of waiting and crashing and ambiguous community chat/lobbies

 

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July 24, 2009 3:53:06 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Still love the game tho

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August 17, 2009 4:02:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Not much point saying thanks Stardock and GPG, I bought the game to say Thanks

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