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Single Player Tournament vs Hard AI

By on April 19, 2009 11:27:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Dahkar

Join Date 02/2008
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Hey Guys,

Anyone had success winning games playing the single player tournament against a hard AI team? I find myself repeatedly getting steamrolled. I'll have a good game, but the AI I think on Hard cheats a bit and I have yet to come close to winning a match. Do you all mind helping out with some tips?

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April 19, 2009 11:44:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I am having the same problme you describe. I usually finish first place for my team, but generally we all lag the other team by 3-5 levels and are drastically out-classed.

 

I would like to hear others tips for Hard Tournaments as well.

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April 19, 2009 11:45:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think your AIs are on Normal (IE:The ones on the player's team). They do WRETCHED and usually go without kills the whole game and in a long one will be 8+ levels behind.

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April 19, 2009 11:55:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I found that the following helps.

1) Get the XP Upgrades on the Citadel as soon as you can.

2) Make sure to hold the 20% experience flag (if any), if not you will have no chance.

3) Make sure to hold the shop flag as well. HARD AI will get that Mage Slayer and then you're effectively QQ.

4) Try and keep pushing and not die.

When you do this, your Allies will level up equally to the opponents (most of the time if the you follow the above conditions)

I almost won one of the maps and killed their towers till the entrance of the base, however, as I did not see that one of the AI had captured the shop flag, they immediately ported over to the shop, bought some uber stuff that gave them speed upgrades and made them avoid most attacks. I lost there and then.

You will be spending most of your time recapturing flags esp. the experience flag.

 

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April 20, 2009 12:32:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I won it with Erebus (but not by much), but had to buy TONS of teleport scrolls to do so. I also lucked out on getting small maps a fair number of times. Key is to constantly jump all over the place to hold flags and kill the AI. Luckily, even the hard AI is pretty stupid and will chase you into towers. Also, check up on the citadel upgrades from time to time. The AI usually does a good job buying these, but sometimes makes stupid choices in what it does buy (skipping early +XP and +Tower Health). Remember also, a Hard AI does not cheat. It gets the same gold and XP as you, but your AI companions are gimped so you have to make up for it. 1v1, you should never have a problem taking out a hard AI.

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April 20, 2009 12:37:02 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Not to say it was easy, as it surely was not and I didn't win all 8 rounds, but by the end of it, I felt like it could of been much more difficult.

To start with, I've been playing Torchbearer, and I played through both the Easy and Normal tournys first, dominating them both 8 for 8 wins.  Once I got to hard however, I seriously felt like I was playing 1vs4 as my CP allies were all but useless.  I still managed to win all the rounds with the exception of Slaughter, which  I lost by about 3 kills each time.

I found that the best thing to do, was to focus on locating and capturing the +20% xp flag if there is one on the map.  This gives you a huge boost as well as helping out your dimwitted CP allies, through the citadel I also focused on the Bonus Gold and Experience.  Other than that I allowed the CP to worry about other citadel upgrades and then focused on leveling my Demigod.  Some matches/maps seemed to be more a matter of patience than trying to destroy the enemy quickly, and over extending was an issue I faced in the first few rounds.

So my tips, +XP and +Gold and watch out for overextending or allowing your teamates to run into the enemy base alone, if they die and give the enemy gold, that is gonna cause problems for you as well so although they are dumb, work together.

 

PS. looking forward to trying Nightmarish tonight after work, we'll see how badly i get stomped lol

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April 20, 2009 3:35:37 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I beat hard without too much trouble. Also, a little trick I accidentally found out. If you quit the match before you lose, it doesn't mark it, so you can retry the same round multiple times. I only did that once or twice, but I ended up winning the tourney with 800 and something points and the second place had 600 something. I was playing as torchy, and really started owning with fire torchy. It seemed to me to really help if i concentrated on just leveling myself and killing other demigods to get lots of gold and experience and keep the enemies out of the game.

I've been doing nightmare with Regulus and won the first round no problem. I just barely lost the second round destroying fortresses, but I kept myself evenly leveled with the AI.

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April 20, 2009 3:59:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The only time I have trouble is when my brainless allies decide to charge and die 5-10 times before level 8 or so.

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April 20, 2009 7:22:56 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Played my first hard tournament as Oak last night after a couple of normals. Pretty much every battle went the same way, except for a handful of walkovers once I got my stuff together. Basically my team would come under severe pressure early on when I was underskilled and weak. We'd often get close to losing, but so long as we managed to beef up the defences, we'd hold out long enough for me to swing the tide. In the end, we won all but the final skirmish, which was a Conquest game on the smallest map and we couldn't come back from their early supremacy. The key I found was to avoid early confrontations with other demigods unless you're 2 on 1. Mainly use the creeps to level up, while grabbing uncontested flags until you've got enough skills and buffs to survive a serious demigod fight (slaughter) or an assault (conquest/fortress).

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April 20, 2009 8:14:10 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I've beaten it with Unclean Beast. It's pretty easy imo. Yeah it seems like your allies are worse than hard comps, but you just have to carry your team, and farm the crap out of the comp. I guess it's important what items you get.

I actually won 7 out of the 8 events. I only lost 1 where you have to get 10 kills first, and that was because the comp was feeding early, and I couldn't get enough kills quick enough.

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April 20, 2009 9:04:32 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thanks for the input. I'll keep at it!

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April 20, 2009 10:08:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This is what i have found out vs the hard mode tournament. This are a few reasons that is causing them to be hard IMO.

 

The opposite AI tents to stay grouped up most of the time were your allies attack them 1 by 1 and get mowed down.

Your ally AI buys the priest upgrade very early meaning faster EXP for the other team.

Your ally AI tents to spend to much time on the healing crystal for some reason. Also they tend to stay longer than needed to a flag after they cap it.

 

And most important, pathing, specially if the opponent team has regulus or TB prepare for a loss really, i have seen many ally AIs get stuck in a corner trying to close the gab on regulus or TB, only to become free kills for them. They start getting on a killing spree which means a lot of gold and a high lvl regulus with artifacts is pretty much imposible to kill if you are lower lvl and weaker gear. They also tend to use staff of speed those 2 characters and they use it very effectively.

 

Now, for the cheating part, i can beat 1vs1 2vs2 3vs3 nightmare in skirmish easy and sometimes 4vs4 if i control the map and those do cheat.

But in hardmode tournament is another story so i am starting to thing it cheats a bit, cant really be sure.

 

Thats my findings atm.

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

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April 20, 2009 10:39:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hi Folks,

Ive thrashed the hard AI's quite a few times with quite a few characters and have since moved on to Nightmare (which, really isnt very difficult either). I used to play a lot of Dota, so the games mechanics came very easily to me. Perhaps I can help a few of you out.

The very first thing Id like to say is, if you have to go back to your base to heal at the crystal, you have done something wrong and are one step closer to losing the game. I have yet to play a charachter who needs to go to the crystal. Nearly every demigod has the ability to heal themselves. On large enough levels, a trip to the crystal means when you get back, your oponent is one level above you. This can happen quite often and you will easilly find yourself 2 or 3 levels below your oponent. That can make things VERY difficult for you. You always want to be at most one level below your oponent. When playing against human oponents, you will inevitably have to go back to the crystal as they will do things the computer wont (chase you deep into your defences, get 3 demigods to focus you, etc) but against the AI, the next time you are back in your base should be when you need to spend money. You can teleport to town, but the best option is play smart and safe untill you go buy your first set of decent items.

Secondly, FLAGS! Probably the most important resource in the game, and the most neglected. Aside from the very nifty bonuses that holding the flags gives you, they also increase your warscore as well as your XP when you capture it. All very important points. The XP for obvious reasons, if you get out there fast enough you can often be level 3 before the first creep wave dies (though on some maps or with slower characters this takes teleport scrolls or the teleport favor item). Even more important then that is Warscore. Not only does it open access in the citadel to VERY important upgrades, it increases your defences (fotresses/archer towers) and these can be essential mid game to keep enemies from pushing too far into your territory (and hence losing more flags that you absolutely must have, like your valor or portl flags). The AI is very diligent about capturing flags on hard and nightmare AI. You need to keep a constant look out for flags you can take. Should you be focused by a demigod and lose a substantial amount of life, enough that you can no longer safely be in the creep wave or "in the thick of it" as they say, instead of running back to the crystal (BAD!) look for flags you can cap. Often you will be able to spend 30 secs, capture a flag (or 2) and gain a level for a skill which can help you out. The important thing to remember here is you are killing 2 birds with 1 stone. You are still gaining experience despite not being in the battle and more importantly you are gaining a flag effect, more warscore and limiting your oponents warscore.

Since we are talking about warscore, I would just like to say a couple of things about the citadel upgrades. I see FAR (nearly everyone) too many poeple being rather selfish and spending all their gold on themselves. This is not the way to win games. Aside from very specific instances it is almost always better to get one of the citadel upgrades (and I mean 1 singular) then spend all your money on yourself. If you have 3k gold, grab an item or 2 for yourself, and get a couple upgrades at the citadel. You will be increasing your entire teams power by doing this as opposed to just yourself. The larger the game, the more effective they are, but even on crucible, they are very important. As to the upgrades themselves, there is much speculation on the added units to waves so I will skip those. I want to talk about 4 upgrades in particular.

First, Offensive and defensive tower upgrades. These are overlooked far too often and can be the difference between winning and losing far too often. For a total of 1500 gold (900 and 600 I believe) you give your towers more health, health regen, more damage and splash damage. The regen and splash damage are whats important of course. Getting these 2 upgrades early on means your towers have nothing to worry about from creep waves. It will require a demigod, and one with a few levels to take down a tower. When playing against the AI, these 2 upgrades alone will keep them from getting very far for a very large portion of the game. I would like to point out that the AI's almost always buy these upgrades ASAP. More importantly, during the early mid game these upgrades allow you to go back to town and not worry that your towers will be pushed down in your abscence.

Next the EXP and Gold upgrades. INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT PEOPLE. The more allies you have, the more important. In a pantheon game (4v4) it is an absolute must. I hope the exp bonus is obvious. 10% exp means you are leveling up 10% faster. If your oponent doesnt have it, great, you will outlevel them if you play it smart. If they do have it, at least you arent being outleveled. The mint is something I think the community as a whole has yet to embrace, but I have found that on anything but very small maps (crucible and prison) it is such an advantage that it becomes rediculous. 4 gold per tick is no joke, the upgrade will pay for itself in just under 7 minutes. For you. During that same time, it will give each of your teammates the same amount of gold. With enough flag captures (and hence warscore) early enough you can get this upgrade very quickly. To make my point, if you were to buy the mint upgrade 2 minutes into the game, and had 3 teammates, at 10 minutes in, your team (this would include you) would be able to buy all Creep wave upgrades up to Giants (as long as you have the corresponding warscore, see flags above ) with the money you have given them. Now, if your playing with AI you cant ask them to spend their gold in certain ways, but the do tend to buy plenty of citdel upgrades on their own.

Lastly, I would like to draw some attention to the most important aspect of this game. DO NOT DIE! Now, of course, you are sitting there saying "But Chaosbrynn, you just told me to never go back to the crystal for healing!" Yes, I did, and one of the major tactics you need to learn in order to master this game is to Not die while not having to go to town. Since we are talking about tournaments here, it is pretty easy. The computer plays conservatively and if you do as well, it is fairly easy to not die. Against players, well, you never know. If your participating in the battles, and manage to lose most of your health it is almost always better to just sit at the back of the battle within experience range, keep an eye out for demigods and soak up experience while you regen. Keep an eye out for easy flag caps while your doing this. If you need to know why dying is bad, well, there is 3 reasons. 1: You are off the field, and hence gaining no money and no experience (income of money stops while you are dead) for the duration of your respawn. 2: You have given your opponents a VERY large chunk of EXP and Gold. Always bad. The best way to be underleveled and underequipped is to give up kills to your oponents. 3: You are now dead, hence not on the field. Your opponents know there is one less demigod on the field and they can now make that push, or hunt down your allies knowiung that they outnumber your team. This rule is SO important it supercedes all other rules. If you are new or havnt mastered certain tactics, and think that regardless of how careful you are that your life is too low and you will be killed, well, go back to the crystal for healing. Its better to do that then die. You do lose out on the exp, but at kleast your income stays and your oponents dont know there is 1 less demigod in the field. I would like to say though that if you do this, make sure to stpop by the citadel. The first few upgrades are VERY cheap and something as simple as giving your towers AOE damage can lead toan enemy demigod being suprised and hence killed. Point being, dont go back just for the crystal, try and make the most of your trip.

Ok folks, that is one hell of a wall of text. Ill stop here for now. Anything else really becomes demigod/team specific so if anyone is having trouble, Lets start a new thread with your character as the focus, PM me to let me know you did such a thing.

Cheers Folks,
Chaosbrynn 

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April 20, 2009 2:17:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thanks to everyone's help, and Chaosbrynn's massive post. I was finally able to win a game of fortress playing as rook. I didn't buy any pots to start, just the banded mail for the hp regen and a scroll. Danced the front for a while and built up gold. Then as suggested I got the tower upgrades and later the experience and gold upgrades. I played most of the game with the scaled helm and banded mail as my only 2 items! Wild.

It was wierd not spending any money on upgrading items. I fought off a push by the other team to one of my portals, and then had leveled quite a bit higher than the other team. They managed to take out 2 of my fortresses, but then I lead a charge up the left side with my heart of life and proceeded to systematically take out their fortresses. At any rate it was a pretty good battle. Hopefully I'll be able to keep it going. Thanks for all the tips!

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April 20, 2009 2:30:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It's sort of funny. I actually used to spend all my money on upgrades, but then I was always so weak I decided I would start trying to just buy items early on to get the advantage, and then a ton of citadel upgrades all at once much later on. I guess I need to find a balance, although having a Demigod that gets a lot of kills early on really helps when playing AI (or anyone for that matter).

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April 20, 2009 2:46:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

My pleasure Olorin. Sorry about the information overload but it seemd like a long wall of text centered on the main problems was what you needed to get the hamser running in its wheel. I encourage you, now that you have tried both extremes to find a good middle ground. Try playing a game where for every gold you spend on yourself, you spend one on the ctadel. See how that works for you and then adjust. One of the great things about this game is that the most effective way to do things are different for different players, not just different demigods.

Cheers,

Chaos

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October 25, 2013 8:58:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm spamming this solution into a couple of threads that popped up when I was looking for how to make Hard singleplayer tournaments less hard.

1.  Editing the game is normally done via the bindata/mods folder.  However, those mods are not loaded for the singleplayer tournament games.  They take their instructions from the unmodded dgdata.zip.

2.  Editing dgdata.zip leads to the game not running.  This is because the game checks to make sure it's got the dgdata.zip that it's expecting.  This check did not exist in the beta version of the game, which explains posts like this that you might see.

3.  Therefore, you need to change that check after you edit the files.  See Peppe's excellent thread on the subject.  Don't be put off by the hex editor aspect; this is doable by anyone.

There's a load of things you could edit.  Unfortunately, Peppe's AI Skirmish mod is the only one I've found that has a tournament version and the download link is broken.  So adding in AI fixes etc. has to be done manually, if you want them.  Just copy the files from the mod's hook folder into your renamed dgdata.zip (remember to make sure they're in the correct folder/sub-folder).

The key thing though, if like me you found Normal tournaments too easy and Hard ones too difficult, is to modify 2 files in that renamed dgdata.zip..

lua/ui/sp/TournamentUtilities.lua.  This is the one that sets the difficulty levels of the AI units on each side.  As you may have noted from singleplayer skirmish, the difference in difficulty (in terms of intelligence) isn't huge there, but in tournies the difference between the difficulties is massive.  That's because the unit difficulty is, in tournies, also used to assign XP & gold multipliers (see game.lua).  Note that these multipliers also apply to you, so unfortunately it's not possible to just give the bonuses to all AIs, friend & foe, and not also give it to yourself.  This effectively leads to you using higher difficulty AI for the enemy team than yours to try to give their side a bonus.

The defaults are as below (where 1 is easy and 4 is nightmare).  Note that in Normal you & your AI were getting Hard bonuses, whereas the enemy AI was getting Normal bonuses (i.e. none).  It's the reversal of this position that makes the difference between Normal (where your buddies will win even if you do nothing) and Hard so stark.

I've added suggested changes, based on almost zero testing, in square brackets after the actual numbers:

    # Set difficulty for each slot based on rules
    #   On Easy -> Player team mates are nightmare; Enemy are easy
    #   On Normal -> Player team mates are hard; Enemy are normal
    #   On Hard -> Player team mates are normal; Enemy are hard
    #   On Nightmare -> Player team mates are normal; Enemy are nightmare
    if tournamentHistory.Difficulty == 'Easy' then
        for demigodName,demigodData in playerTeam do
            demigodData.Difficulty = 4[3]
        end
        for demigodName,demigodData in enemyTeam do
            demigodData.Difficulty = 1[2]
        end
    elseif tournamentHistory.Difficulty == 'Normal' then
        for demigodName,demigodData in playerTeam do
            demigodData.Difficulty = 3[3]
        end
        for demigodName,demigodData in enemyTeam do
            demigodData.Difficulty = 2[3]
        end
    elseif tournamentHistory.Difficulty == 'Hard' then
        for demigodName,demigodData in playerTeam do
            demigodData.Difficulty = 2[3]
        end
        for demigodName,demigodData in enemyTeam do
            demigodData.Difficulty = 3[4]
        end
    elseif tournamentHistory.Difficulty == 'Nightmare' then
        for demigodName,demigodData in playerTeam do
            demigodData.Difficulty = 2[2]
        end
        for demigodName,demigodData in enemyTeam do
            demigodData.Difficulty = 4[4]

lua/game.lua.  This is the one where the modifiers are applied.  The important ones are the earnt gold, the earnt XP and the starting gold multipliers.  Remember, these multipliers will apply to you as well, which sucks as it's therefore not possible to beef up your own AI without also beefing you up.

As before, suggested values based on almost no testing are in square brackets.  There aren't actually any values for the Normal multipliers, but I've added in what the game will be using.  I also removed the limit on the favour items.

# Difficuly handicaps for the three different AI difficulty levels
    DifficultyHandicaps = {
        # Easy
        {
            GoldMultiplier = 0.75[0.75],
            ExpMultiplier = 0.75[0.75],
            StartingGold = 0.5[0.75],
            MinPoints = 0[450],      # MinPoints and MaxPoints is the range of points the AI is allowed to spend on an achievement item
            MaxPoints = 150[10000],
        },

        # Normal
        {  GoldMultiplier = 1.0[0.75],
            ExpMultiplier = 1.0[0.75],
            StartingGold = 1.0[0.75],

            MinPoints = 150[450],
            MaxPoints = 300[10000],
        },

        # Hard
        {
            GoldMultiplier = 1.5[1.0],
            ExpMultiplier = 1.5[1.0],
            StartingGold = 2.0[1.0],
            MinPoints = 300[450],
            MaxPoints = 450[10000],
        },

        # Nightmare
        {
            GoldMultiplier = 2.0[1.5],
            ExpMultiplier = 2.0[1.5],
            StartingGold = 4.0[1.5],
            MinPoints = 450,
            MaxPoints = 10000,

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