Cancel Beta account and refund

He already said that he doesn't want to cancel for reasons relating to Demigod, in the OP, stop bashing him for flaming the game.

I wasn't aware that Stardock felt so strongly about enforcing them, especially when it goes against what the rest of the industry does.

Stardock has done well for itself going against the "we've always done it this way" if that way isn't working.

I'll be totally honest, if this was an agreement we signed when we got the game or at least made obvious it wouldn't be a big deal. It wasn't, I had no idea this was different and you need to make things like this known. Stardock can go against the mold, but people need to be told how it works.

Stardock treated the presale the same way it treats a sale. I would think that treating it differently would require some notice but treating it the same would not.

I've read each & every line of each & every of the 54 previous replies on this thread, and I must recognize that there are good arguments on both sides of the issue. To simplify this complex debate :

On the one hand, it is true that « I » (in fact, my dad's Visa!) have paid full price for a very incomplete game : for example, when « I » paid, only 1 map & only 3 demigods were available !

But on the other hand, when « I » paid, there was an obvious, overt contract which I willingly entered into with StarDock.

I do not perceive that SD lied. The corporation offered a product (finished Demigod game + a series of pre-release builds) at a certain price ... and I willingly said "Yes". If other corporations offer other forms of beta & pre-order schemes, that's their business privilege, as it is the privilege of StarDock to formulate its own business proposals -- at any price that it wants, as long as the terms & conditions are overtly revealed. I do not perceive that SD has deceived me in any fashion ... and I am the one, at 21 of age, who said "Yes" to Stardock's business proposal.

Also, and that's important > As kryo has stated, a total or partial refund can be obtained :

1. A 100% refund if there are significant technical issues that make the beta programme unplayable on one's computer ;

2. A partial (75%) refund for any reason [EDIT > But there seems to be a time limit for that type of refund.]

3. A 100% refund for other special reasons, if one achieves a successful negotiation with SD Sales (where really nice people work).

But I surmise that this thread might incite StarDock executives to sit down in a meeting and re-evaluate, at the very least, the manner in which the pre-order-with-beta-participation package is offered, as a product requiring payment -- and especially, the formal manner in which the contractual info is presented to potential buyers.

My father had previously participated in a few such SD processes (GC, GC2 + expansions, and SINS), so I knew what I was getting into when I signed in the DEMIGOD beta process ... but some new customers might not quite understand the contractual parameters of the offer.

Making the info much more explicit & clear would certainly not hurt. On the other hand, the question of how much to charge for a pre-order-plus-beta package is a more delicate issue -- which might require more meetings of the StarDock archonts.

Very well said, and I agree.

A 21 year old girl who plays demigod, if you are cute, i'm in heaven. JK. As only friends I know who play video games are guys, I always fing it odd (rare, uncommon, confusing) when I see girls playing. Then again my sister plays, but she is not really a girl to me.

Quoting Sorceresss,

But on the other hand, when « I » paid, there was an obvious, overt contract which I willingly entered into with StarDock.

...The corporation offered a product (finished Demigod game + a series of pre-release builds) at a certain price ... and I willingly said "Yes".

Anyways I agree. I personally sat down and really debated whether or not I wanted to join the beta. I tend to only buy games after a good review and usually playing the demo. Knowing the rep of stardock and GPG, and their vision for the game, I asked myself am I ok paying for something that is not finished and that when finished I may not like. I believed that by accepting the beta, I was promising to purchase the game and that reciept of the beta is like reciept of the game unless development was canceled.

I am personally shocked stardock is being as generous as it is in this case.

Quoting CrimsonTears88,

reply 6

Very well said, and I agree.

Thxxx for the generous feedback! It took me a whole hour to compose & edit my post -- taking into consideration that my day-to-day language for communication & study is french.

P.S. > @ Trigeminal. My real-life picture is used for my Sorceresss avatar on this Civ 4 forum, such as on this webpage :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290752&page=4

Quoting Sorceresss,

reply 5

But I surmise that this thread might incite StarDock executives to sit down in a meeting and re-evaluate, at the very least, the manner in which the pre-order-with-beta-participation package is offered, as a product requiring payment -- and especially, the formal manner in which the contractual info is presented to potential buyers.

Well that's sort of what I want.

Apparently the 75% refund is for with-in 90days of the billing date, so kryo has said.

Now the thing is, the game isn't going to be out within 90days of when they charged my credit card.

All I'm saying is that that 75% refund should be extended to a week or two after the game actually "ships" for people that pre-ordered way early ahead.
That way if the game you beta'd in turns out to be bad you are charged $12 or something for the beta, not $45.

Hopefully the game is good an that's ilrelevant. But this is almost like the Hellgate London "founders club" thing. It was paying $150 or something for a life time subscription to the game, and only to people who preordered, and only obtainable within the first month of release or something. You where gambling that the game would become better with it's updates..

Me thinks some people have too much time on their hands.

Quoting innociv,

reply 9

Apparently the 75% refund is for with-in 90days of the billing date, so kryo has said.

Now the thing is, the game isn't going to be out within 90days of when they charged my credit card.

I don't follow. If you want a refund now, why does it matter if the same deal applies in February?

Besides, you get the full game the day it comes out (or afterwards depending on when you decide to update), and there is no logical reason for them to offer pre-order refunds after it becomes simply an order. Yes, they probably should give refunds regardless of how long ago the pre-order was, but not after the game has already been received.

Quoting CrimsonTears88,

reply 3

Stardock can go against the mold, but people need to be told how it works.

Before reading all of the replies posted on this thread, I had a 100% trust in StarDock. Now, I still have that feeling of total trust ...

but I must admit that some critical observations, such as yours (and the ones made by Jinx), made me realize that the info concerning the terms & conditions of the pre-order-with-beta-participation deals might not have been as clearly presented as I had assumed.

____________________________

And then, there's the question of the 25% "processing fee" if you want a refund (within the allowed timeframe). Some find it outrageous, since it exceeds the small fee that a credit-card company charges SD for the electronic pre-order payment. On that point, I understand that the notion of "processing fee" must include other business expenses, associated to an order, beyond the credit-card fee.

If a customer had asked for a refund within the very first month (in September), before the first update, I don't perceive that he would have been abusing the privilege of having tried a very incomplete, early beta-build of the game : only giving him back 75%, then, could seem stingy -- especially since StarDock's CEO, on a forum thread he created, recognized that the very first build was not meant to be « fun » ! Charging 25% of the full price of a finished game for a "not-fun", very incomplete & early beta-build could be interpreted as customer abuse -- although not by me, at the moment.

Like I've said before, I believe this thread will apply pressure on SD to revise its pre-order-with-beta-participation scheme, and its related refund policy.

(I would have given a 100% refund -- no questions asked, no hassle -- to any unsatisfied customer requesting one before the release of the first update : it would have been the reasonable "diplomatic" move to do, in order to continue cultivating SD's shiny image.)

In conclusion, allow me to reiterate that I trust StarDock & its CEO (and kryo) 100% : but that's an intuitive feeling which cannot be taken for granted (and unconditionally expected) for each & every customer who makes the rational, financial decision of investing his cash into an uncertain beta process.

Quoting Torgamous,

reply 11

I don't follow. If you want a refund now, why does it matter if the same deal applies in February?

I can see you dont' follow, and I don't understand what is clear.

Right now is months away from release. I dont' know if the game is good or bad. I don't think i'll know in less than 2 months, either.

I'm not saying I want to cancle, but what jinx says makes sense.

You're paying full price for a game you know nothing about (how can you know about a game that won't exist for many months? beta != the game) and you can't cancle it if it turns out bad like HGL.

Quoting innociv,

reply 13

You're paying full price for a game you know nothing about (how can you know about a game that won't exist for many months? beta != the game) and you can't cancle it if it turns out bad like HGL.

Implying that you can for other preorders is a weak argument. Sure, you have other people playing it and offering feedback--but I don't trust other people. If you've preordered a bad game that doesn't charge until it ships, by the time you've received the game you've been charged. As I said before, Demigod is functionally the same, except that you get your hands on the game earlier.

its not as bad as pre ordering a phantom game console (300$ ish) and when the console is cancelled no store will give u a refund for ur pre order lol

Quoting innociv,

reply 13

You're paying full price for a game you know nothing about (how can you know about a game that won't exist for many months? beta != the game) and you can't cancle it if it turns out bad like HGL.

You're paying 25% of full price if you get a refund. That's $11.25 for a game you know little (not nothing, you knew the basic idea) about. If you don't get a refund, then you'll be getting the finished game the next time you use Impulse after February 19, and any claim that you deserve a refund for preordering is invalid.

And stop comparing this to HGL. This is Stardock. Their entire fanbase is centered around good customer relations. They know this, they use this, they promote this. If they pulled somthing like that, they'd be out of business.

(Ah, I see where the confusion was. For some reason I had assumed you were the OP. *Facepalm*)

tbh, as Kryo said, a pre-order is a declaration that you WILL buy the game, and SD have lost out when you go back on that.

Quoting Legerdemain,

reply 14

Quoting innociv, reply 13
You're paying full price for a game you know nothing about (how can you know about a game that won't exist for many months? beta != the game) and you can't cancle it if it turns out bad like HGL.
Implying that you can for other preorders is a weak argument. Sure, you have other people playing it and offering feedback--but I don't trust other people. If you've preordered a bad game that doesn't charge until it ships, by the time you've received the game you've been charged. As I said before, Demigod is functionally the same, except that you get your hands on the game earlier.

okay.. the cancle the day before it ships?

Like I preordered HGL which got me into the beta.

It was awful.

Undescribably awful. I canceled the preorder.

Quoting DeadMG,

reply 17

as Kryo said, a pre-order is a declaration that you WILL buy the game, and SD have lost out when you go back on that.

TRUE : By subscribing to the StarDock business proposal of a pre-order-plus-beta-participation package, one has agreed to such a "contract".

But it's not all customers, especially if they are new to how StarDock operates in such matters, who will understand that "pre-ordering", in those very special beta-process circumstances, represents such a firm commitment.

As I have previously stated, StarDock might have to rethink how it is going to formulate its proposals, and especially, how it is going to inform potential customers on the precise terms & conditions of its offers.

I'm very happy concerning how things are at the moment ... but my personal feelings should not represent proof of anything. I can understand why relatively new customers might feel frustrated by the current refund policy.

Most often, participation in a beta is totally free, during the short, advanced stage of a game's development ... but StarDock offers beta-participation packages where the customer is not just asked to find bugs : he really can have a significant impact on the development of the game over a period of many months.

Quoting innociv,

reply 18

Like I preordered HGL which got me into the beta.

It was awful.

Undescribably awful. I canceled the preorder.

Quoting Torgamous,

reply 16

And stop comparing this to HGL. This is Stardock. Their entire fanbase is centered around good customer relations. They know this, they use this, they promote this. If they pulled somthing like that, they'd be out of business.

Right now is months away from release. I dont' know if the game is good or bad. I don't think i'll know in less than 2 months, either.

Right now is your chance to give feedback so devs can make changes to make the game as good as possible. Noone knows if the game will turn out good or bad, but if you just wanted to try it out before commiting to the purchase you should have waited for a DEMO.

Quoting Sorceresss,

reply 19

Quoting DeadMG, reply 17as Kryo said, a pre-order is a declaration that you WILL buy the game, and SD have lost out when you go back on that.
TRUE : By subscribing to the StarDock business proposal of a pre-order-plus-beta-participation package, one has agreed to such a "contract".

Where is this "contract"? As Kryo said, you are bound by the return policy. There is nothing in the return policy about pre-orders and there is no info I can find on the site explaining anything the "pre-order-plus-beta-participation package" other than this paragraph before you click "pre-order":

"Pre-order Demigod by Gas Powered Games and gain access to the exclusive limited beta program. This beta program is only open to those who pre-order the game directly through Stardock/Impulse."

I would appreciate it if someone could post a link or screenshot showing where this "pre-order-plus-beta-participation package" policy exists.

Quoting -Sorian-,

reply 22

Where is this "contract"?

Stardock advertise the product - that is an offer to treat

You enter your credit card details and press continue - that is an offer of contract

Stardock process the transaction - that is an acceptance of your offer of contract

There is consideration - you're paying a reasonable amount of money for a product (to be delivered in the future) and beta access, and

There is an intention from both parties to form a contract (offering money for a product is an intention to form a contract)

BAM! There's your contract.

As to the "pre-order-plus-beta-participation package", all of this is stated on various pages, if not all at once or all on the one page. The first preorder page states that preordering comes with access to the limited beta, and the returns policy page states that no refunds will be given for beta products, and also that only 75% of the purchase price will be refunded if there is no technical reason you can't use the product.

Stardock doesn't say you are buying beta software. It says you are download and / or retail box for Demigod. The beta is shown as a limited time offer and not presented as what you are buying. All in all Stardock is wrong from what I can see and read. Fanboys aside if this was Gamestop people would be flipping out. Not to mention since only a few people are effected by this and feel so strongly about it, it's just good customer service at this point to end this. It's obvious for new customers this wasn't clear at all, and even the refund policy isn't clear on the matter. It says if you buy a beta program, but none of us knew we were buying the beta; we thoguht it was a perk like the website makes it seem. As soon as this is over I'm unistalling Impulse and never buying their products again. I think this has been handled poorly.

Quoting CrimsonTears88,

reply 24

Stardock doesn't say you are buying beta software. It says you are download and / or retail box for Demigod. The beta is shown as a limited time offer and not presented as what you are buying. All in all Stardock is wrong from what I can see and read. Fanboys aside if this was Gamestop people would be flipping out. Not to mention since only a few people are effected by this and feel so strongly about it, it's just good customer service at this point to end this. It's obvious for new customers this wasn't clear at all, and even the refund policy isn't clear on the matter. It says if you buy a beta program, but none of us knew we were buying the beta; we thoguht it was a perk like the website makes it seem. As soon as this is over I'm unistalling Impulse and never buying their products again. I think this has been handled poorly.

Agreed. I've been quite faithful to stardock since becoming a customer when i bought Sins. Since then, I've bought numerous titles off their digital distribution channels. I'm extremely disapointed by how they're handling this and likewise, I doubt I'll be a returning customer.

Many games that Impulse offers, Steam also offers. Aside from the horrid initial launch, Steam has been great to me. There's also the PennyArcade distribution channel, PlayGreenhouse which is another great source for indy titles.

I hear so much about Stardock's great customer service. I hate to say this, but I honestly don't really see it.

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