Replay: PuG vs. PuG stompers

Turning the tables

By on October 6, 2009 5:20:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

CosMoe

Join Date 06/2008
+25

I picked up _Attila_ and xDennisx in their game lobby and asked them if they wanted to play a game against iamKira and his team as both teams were waiting for a match. I hate the waiting game.


Team 1 (PuG, never played together):

_Atilla: 197/81

xDennisx: 159/109

CosMoe: 189/99

 

Team 2 (2 guys usually play together; everyone ~90% win rate):

iamKira: 572/80

Bier_Kanonier: 389/45

windtotem: 226/24

 

For me such extremely high win rates indicate PuG stompers, as nobody who usually plays fair games with even teams has ~90% win rate.

Time to turn the tables.

Enjoy the replay.

 

P.S.: Of course they were really good players and fought a fair game, and maybe they usually fight PuGs because they can't find enough even teams anymore due to low player numbers.

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October 6, 2009 6:24:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I know all of these people (more or less), except windtotem. You learn alot more from hard matches then from bashing noobs, so this can turn really hard on you if you get good opponents for a change

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October 6, 2009 6:26:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I know both iamKira and Bier_Kanonier.

They host games asking for "good players only" and do not stomp random noobs.

They dont use vent or any form of communication (only typing) - they just know how to play. They arent really at any more of an advantage than you are. The only difference is that they have played together with each other before and are confident in each others skill.

Anyway, will give the game a watch.

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October 6, 2009 6:29:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You learn alot more from hard matches then from bashing noobs

two games with pacov showed me more about ub than 75+ PUG games with average players. Same with Kalel and reg

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October 6, 2009 8:48:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

They host games asking for "good players only"

Sad but true: Often players with barely 20 games (and far less than 40% win rate) join such games. That's why I usually name my games "100 games min" and ask players on both teams with really bad stats (win rate << 40%) to leave. Gotta protect the ignoramous from ruining the game for everyone.

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October 6, 2009 10:25:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting DalzK,
I know both iamKira and Bier_Kanonier.

They host games asking for "good players only" and do not stomp random noobs.

They dont use vent or any form of communication (only typing) - they just know how to play. They arent really at any more of an advantage than you are. The only difference is that they have played together with each other before and are confident in each others skill.

Anyway, will give the game a watch.

Yes, these guys are definitely not PUG stompers.  I play with iamKira every now and then and I've actually only seen him play with Bier_Kanonier once. iamKira is more deserving of his 90% win rate than some of the other higher-ranked top 20 players that pug stomp on a daily basis.

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October 6, 2009 11:11:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Maccilia,

You learn alot more from hard matches then from bashing noobs
two games with pacov showed me more about ub than 75+ PUG games with average players. Same with Kalel and reg

Bastard, didn't learn anything about Sedna from me I run with KALEL and Pacov.

Anyway, windtotem actually pugs a lot  and is an extremely competent Regulus, one of the best pugging Regii that I've seen.

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October 7, 2009 2:33:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Looking through windtotems history he does not appear to play with these guys all that often. Which realistically means that the team aspect can be tied down to Beir and Kira, I very much doubt that they would of denied the fact they were a team. My observation of kira and bier is this, kira throws up games and they will play anyone who joins. If they dooccasionaly stomp the pug, poor little pug, they do it no more or less than anyone else. They certainly do not require a witch hunt over there win ratios which are as they are as a result of the fact they are better than most.

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October 7, 2009 9:31:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

My premade has played with iamKira's before, so at the very least, they don't just pub stomp.

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October 8, 2009 1:52:19 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Kira is definetly not the sterotypical pug stomper. I played with and vs IamKira many times and teams where always fair.

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October 8, 2009 4:00:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I know we've tangled with them a few times, so it's not like they avoid good games. 

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October 8, 2009 8:38:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Bastard, didn't learn anything about Sedna from me

nope not a thing

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October 9, 2009 5:08:19 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

They host games asking for "good players only" and do not stomp random noobs.

Yes, these guys are definitely not PUG stompers.

I played with and vs IamKira many times and teams where always fair.

......

I stand by my point:

From experiences in my own matches I can only conclude that win percentage only gives you one information:

How much the player enjoys PuG stomping.

 

I know I'm not making friends here with this assertion, but you know I'm right: You do not get >80% win rate by usually playing fair matches.

Recent example. Please tell me how this is not PuG stomping. I know it's also the PuG players fault because they joined a "good players only" game, but as I have said above that does not keep the ignoramous from joining such games. Experienced players know this and experienced players also check the stats!

 

I do not care about win percentage or ranking at all. Here's what really buggers me about this behaviour:

Can you imagine how many newbies or average players quit Demigod after getting stomped like this too often?

 

Sadly, the stat overlays will arrive far too late. PuG stompers have already done their part in decimating the Demigod player base to a point where getting a fair game running sometimes takes longer than the game itself.

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October 9, 2009 6:39:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I know I'm not making friends here with this assertion, but you know I'm right: You do not get >80% win rate by usually playing fair matches

I played supreme commander and had 74% wins using automatch in 1vs1 and there were people with even better stats. If you belong to the top skilled players in a game which doesn't have an as gigantic player base as lets say starcraft you end up with stats like this. And as Demigod is a teamgame you don't even lose automatically when one of the players plays a bit weaker than normal which increases the probabilty of winning for the better team because in a 3vs3 the average deviation of the team performance is smaller than in 1vs1.

Of course they could also wait 60 to 90 minutes searching one of the few teams which stand a chance vs them, but I guess they play the game to enjoy it. Also the win ratio doesn't tell anything about if the games were a one sided slaughter or mostly close games which both sides enjoyed - I remember losing about 25 games in a row to sir_loui in supreme commander and most of them were pretty close.

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October 9, 2009 1:01:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting CosMoe,

I know I'm not making friends here with this assertion, but you know I'm right: You do not get >80% win rate by usually playing fair matches.

But here is the thing, how do you get fair matches when you are in the top 2% of the community?  How likely is it that the top ten players are all on at the same time, night after night?  The game does not even have automatching.  If you are in the top 2%, you are going to play anyone that comes along because realistically, people at your skill level just cannot be found.

 

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October 9, 2009 1:51:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

But here is the thing, how do you get fair matches when you are in the top 2% of the community?

But here is the thing, they are not as untouchable as they might seem.

Look through their game histories: When they rarely fight a match against another experienced team, they also lose. This very replay is evidence for my point here. It's just that the majority of matches they play are very, very unbalanced. Which, in my opinion, has quite negative effects on the community.

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October 9, 2009 7:36:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting CosMoe,


I know I'm not making friends here with this assertion, but you know I'm right: You do not get >80% win rate by usually playing fair matches.

My longest win streak of 20 games was virtually all pick-up games, with a few, like 3 or 4, that were with my friends.

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October 9, 2009 11:49:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If I tried, I could get close to a 100% win rate playing PUG games only (barring crashes etc).  Its not because I'm the best player on earth, but simply because its not all that hard, IMO, to pick a game that you have good odds of winning in.  I dare say even puggers STACK the team when they can.  If you recognize a good player hosting a 3v3 and there is only 1 person in it, join.  BAM - odds are you'll be on the winning team unless all the great puggers come a running.  Oh crap... but now you've more than likely created an imbalance as they probably aren't a running.  You should switch teams to make it interesting or just leave if super pro puggers don't join, right?

Enough PUG/PREMADE slop.  Just play some games and avoid the games that you consider unfair.  The overlay should help EVERYONE avoid unfair matchups.  Be sure to call yourself out if you stack a PUG team.  Switch sides to balance things out.  OR don't make posts calling out PUG stompers. 

Fair to call this a PUG Stomp?  http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/1008689/player/54846/  Looks like you should have kicked VinnieBasco as he's new... and you have your one buddy with you (revealer)... this makes you a premade in many people's opinion.

or this?  http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/1012716/player/54846/  Wow... All new players.  Your team is stacked and you still have your one buddy with you.  You should have kicked.  This is a PUG stomp.

or this? http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/1001029/player/54846/.  Not quite as bad, but still a stacked PUG against a much weaker PUG. 

I pulled those examples by going through your game list for about 2 minutes.  Now, I know you actually do try to get balanced games going for the most part, Cosmo, but clearly not all of your games are balanced.  It happens.  I'd go so far as to say that sometimes, you might just want to get a game in and not screw around trying to balance teams.  Or maybe you just fancied an easy, relaxing game.  It's ok.  Some people like relaxing games from time to time.  We need to relax a wee bit.  Play the game.  See a game you don't think is fair, don't play in it.  My premade team is good... and we can be downright terrible.  Even in perfect land, ladder ranked number 1 is going to get beat from time to time.  Just try to enjoy the experience where you can.  But if you aren't balancing all of your games, calling out someone for not balancing 1 of theirs = meh

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October 10, 2009 6:45:32 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Okay...

I try to play fair games as much as possible, not because I'm such a nice guy but because I simply do not enjoy stomping the other team! I always ask for fair teams, but Demigod always crashes when alt-tabbing so the games I played are sometimes not really balanced when noone else does look at the stats. These are a few boring games that I'm not particularly proud of and the overlays will make this a lot better for me. Also I can not kick players because I do not usually host games.

But if you aren't balancing all (emphasis mine) of your games, calling out someone for not balancing 1 (emphasis mine) of theirs = meh

Should I try and make statistics about the average "fairness" of games I usually play compared to the "fairness" of the games that guys like iamKira or Bier_Kanonier usually play? Or will you trust me that this will result in quite a big f****** difference!?

(I just sampled through their games history and as expected their team is always much stronger. But, very interestingly, the enemy PuG experience is quite a lot lower on average than the enemy PuG experience that I play against.)

Trying to compare me to such players is quite an insult to me.

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October 10, 2009 10:34:13 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Try not to take too much offense here, Cosmoe.  I like you and enjoy playing with or against AND can easily see from your stats that you do try to get more balanced games going than most.  So, I'm not exactly trying to take a shot at you here, but rather trying to make a point.  More than likely, everyone has been a part of a PUG stomp at one point or another (whether they enjoy it or not).  Its the over generalization that premades get that annoy the shite out of me.  As I'm sure was the case in those pick up games that I grabbed from your record that weren't balanced, you probably just played those games because you wanted to get a game in.  And I honestly don't see anything wrong with playing a game to have some fun. 

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October 10, 2009 11:04:49 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Point taken.

 

Its the over generalization that premades get that annoy the shite out of me.

By my definition the opposite team in the OP was not a premade (no VO, third guy does not usually play with them).

But they are most definitively PuG stompers.

Big difference.

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October 11, 2009 1:00:12 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hmm... I looked through several of their games.  I think we're definitely going to have a difference of opinion on this topic.  Back when I first formed my premade and there were only a few people in it, I'd regularly play in PUG games during hours when my team wasn't available.  These were inevitably stacked PUG games.  I'd follow the simple premise of waiting for a game to show up with someone whose name I recognize as a good player as the host and join.  They'd recognize my name and generally have no issue at all with me playing on their side.  The games were typically 3v3.  A 3rd player would usually join who was also quite good.  Typically, no effort would be made at balancing the teams... why risk taking a loss by trading out an experienced player for someone who is not as good... also, the concept of balancing wasn't even discussed by people joining the games at the time.  The majority of these games were not about finding excellent competition, but about playing the game and typically, at least for me, trying new strategies and builds.  These games were generally nice, relaxing games that weren't highly competitive or challenging and increased my overall skill with various Dgs.  They did pad stats and enable you to run with big win streaks.  So much so that the ladder ends up becoming a representation of the people with the most time to play in this style of game. 

And that's the way things will remain in this system, sadly.  If you have enough time to play and you play SOLELY in stacked PUGS/Premades, you'll eventually rise to the top.  That's the way the experience system is designed to work... whoever plays the most without losing moves up and up.  So the system logically favors good players that band together either as PUGs or premades. 

And for the part that some of you will disagree with me about even though it will sound strange:  I really don't have a problem with people playing the game the way they enjoy it.  If you want to get with your buddies and play a game online, have at it.  If you enjoy less competitive games (caused by stacking), then go ahead and play those.  I'm not going to think you are a great player even if you are ladder ranked number 1 until I play with or against you.  And I generally don't care if you are ladder ranked number 1 because it typically ONLY means that you have more time to play than me.  And even then, its only my opinion and you don't have to prove anything to me at all.  It's just that stats don't prove squat.  What I personally hate, is people lying about being a premade if asked, people joining PUG only games as a premade, and people intentionally trying to grief you.  I don't really have any problem with people playing the game however they want to. 

How competitive can the ladder EVER be if you can rise to the top by beating AI in pantheon or by beating random players over and over in stacked teams or stacked pugs?  If we ever want there to be some sort of competitive ladder, we need to have the system revamped.  Pugs play as true pugs (eg its not you + 1 buddy + 1 random) using an automatch system.  Teams play on the same team but against other teams using an automatch system.  The closest chance pugs had for this died with skirmish mode (which has been removed).  And perhaps we'll see something for teams in 1.3 clan wars.  We'd obviously need 2 ladders... a PUG and a Premade.  I doubt any of this is coming any time soon though, but I digress.

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October 11, 2009 1:22:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

the flip side of what Pacov is saying is that if I join a game with player who rec me or have played a number of games with me and I'm on the "wrong team" then they will whisp me to leave rather than have me suffer a stomp game, and when I leave it  just makes it more of a stomp..

You try to have balanced games but there's nothing wrong with playing with friends = the fact that current system limitations make it seem that way isn't our fault.

Kira doesn't look for rolls and neither does Bier..actually when he was starting out Kira would suffer loss after loss after loss with no worries, he might be the humblest good player I know, clearly in it for the fun...

Cosmoe - you have a bunch of players in this thread saying this is not a stomp team, maybe you should let it go?  There are some exploiters out there but I don't think these guys fit the profile

 

All of that said, the best game I've had recently was babysitting a 0/0 player through his first multiplayer match with excellent teammate Alberto and good listener Sheggi (wooh Sheggi first match win GG!) against xp players today - it's worth the trouble to show our newbs a good time

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October 11, 2009 8:17:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Cosmoe - you have a bunch of players in this thread saying this is not a stomp team, maybe you should let it go?

Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe they're not doing it intentionally.

The facts (insane win %; very low enemy PuG experience) are still there though.

 

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October 11, 2009 8:32:00 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting CosMoe,

Cosmoe - you have a bunch of players in this thread saying this is not a stomp team, maybe you should let it go?


Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe they're not doing it intentionally.

The facts (insane win %; very low enemy PuG experience) are still there though.

 
Well most of the people who play this game are terrible...I wouldn't be surprised if its unintentional.

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October 11, 2009 1:42:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The facts (insane win %; very low enemy PuG experience) are still there though.

Maybe its because they are very good players?

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