Crucible Exploit with Erebus

By on September 21, 2009 10:29:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Mikhail

Join Date 02/2008
+2

I guess some of the community knows about the ability of Erebus to exploit the narrow gaps in the crucible map.  I was surprised to see it used pretty heavily.  Erebus can easily batswarm into his own or the enemies base.  Major time-saver/exploit.  Seems like there are some people pretty good at using it.  Hope it's part of the patch.

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September 21, 2009 10:35:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Not really an exploit, just clever use of an ability.  It's not just Erebus, btw, any general can do this with the Cloak of Night favor item.

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September 21, 2009 10:58:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It doesn't seem to me that the map was purposely set up for Generals to have a huge advantage over Assassins.  It is a clever move, and I'll leave that map alone until it's balanced.  I just hadn't seen it until tonight.

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September 21, 2009 11:15:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, there's also the warpstone trinket which any demigod can buy but I get what you're saying.

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September 21, 2009 11:40:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This has been mentioned before in several dedicated topics. While Erebus has an ability that allows him to perform this, anyone can reproduce this move through the use of other items, as has already been mentioned. It's hardly an Erebus Exploit. In fact, on any map he can jump corners in the lanes to increase the lead or close a the gap between him and his opponent - as can anyone else. I understand that this is the first time you've seen it, and in a 1v1 it's a massive advantage over his opponents. However, is the standard 3v3 match, it's really not as large an issue as you'd think if you're aware and ready for it.

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September 22, 2009 7:38:12 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hehehheh, for only 12000, my assassin can do it too.  12000 .................................. 

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September 22, 2009 7:43:10 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Missed the warpstone trinket, it's only 5500, still a ton for crucible.  I've tried to batstorm with beast, but all he does is fart.

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September 22, 2009 7:55:44 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Been this way from day one it is not going to change I can bat swarm across a lot of openings on maps with level 2 batswarm not just crucible. It does not need to be fixed.

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September 22, 2009 10:49:19 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You'll probably want to stay away from Exile, too.

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September 22, 2009 4:37:37 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It happens, its annoying, its frustrating, and we've all had to deal with it. Make sure you have at least one general on your team and make sure he has cloak of night to counter his or any other gernerals moves. Make sure you carry plenty of TP's and lock your flag if hes doing it.

Its a pretty lame move, usually used by the team getting thier ass beat as a last ditch effort to come back.

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September 22, 2009 11:38:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Bolange,
any general can do this with the Cloak of Night favor item.

 

Yes really, If a DG can do something with a standard ability, that only half of the cast (general) can do only when they pick a certain favor item (while erebus can go any favor item) it is an advantage.

Zehdon: This has been mentioned before in several dedicated topics. While Erebus has an ability that allows him to perform this, anyone can reproduce this move through the use of other items, as has already been mentioned. It's hardly an Erebus Exploit. In fact, on any map he can jump corners in the lanes to increase the lead or close a the gap between him and his opponent - as can anyone else. I understand that this is the first time you've seen it, and in a 1v1 it's a massive advantage over his opponents. However, is the standard 3v3 match, it's really not as large an issue as you'd think if you're aware and ready for it.


I see you post everywhere, and you always have a negative smart ass attitude, yet you're consistently wrong. You say that "anyone can reproduce this move" with the key phrase being "through the use of other items." If erebus can do it, without an item, and another demi god can do it, but only if they have an item. Doesn't that mean that the demigod who needs an item is at a disadvantage considering in order to level the playing field they must spend their gold, equipment / item slot on something when erebus can do the same thing, and save the money, equipment, item slot for something else?

"In fact, on any map he can jump corners in the lanes to increase the lead or close a the gap between him and his opponent - as can anyone else"

That's not what's being argued. On any other map, erebus cannot bat swarm from half way across the map directly to your portal flag, or bat swarm across the map directly to his own crystal for a quick heal.

You also mention "is the standard 3v3 match, it's really not as large an issue as you'd think" but the map in question is a 2v2 map, and the quicker you can go back for a heal / shop and return to battle, the quicker you can bolster your ally with support and maintain map control and guarantee your ally's survival. The longer you take to shop / heal the more time the game is a 2v1. The less time you take to shop / heal the more time the game is a 2v2. If the other people do not have erebus, and choose a strategy that does not use that favor item to jump the map, then they have to go shop / heal the ol' fashioned way, which takes more time. Leaving them at a DISADVANTAGE since the more time away from your ally = more time your opponents have the upper hand.

By having to choose a favor item, to negate something that ONLY one character out of 8 can do without using a favor item, is an advantage to the erebus player because he can put his favor points in something else so he has the benefit of that other favor item PLUS the benefit of being able to jump the gap, while the non erebus player either has to choose between a favor item to jump the gap - or a favor item that does something else, but doesn't let them jump the gap.... that is the text book example of a exploit / imbalance etc. In order for the other player to even it out, erebus would only be allowed 1 favor item (standard) and the opposing DG would need 2 favor items to have the same advantages that Erebus has.

Take this scenario for example:

Ereb / Beast Vs (Insert general demi god 4 out of 8 options)  / Beast

Erebus goes blood of the fallen. He has 800 extra HP off the start, plus health regen, plus at level 1 he has a move that can drain health, do damage, slow opponent, and decrease armor.

This means that ereb / beast can get the neutral DUAL GOLD MINE FLAG faster because if they fight 2v2, erebus team has the health advantage early. Couple that with priests instead of items at the start, and the ereb / beast team wins vs ? / beast hands down to control that flag. Once they have control they have a tremendous early game cash advantage. And we all know what cash does right?

Let's say both teams want to go shop around levels 5 or 6. IN LESS THAN 8 SECONDS Ereb can bat swarm to base, heal, buy a tp and whatever items he wanted, and teleport back to battle.

? / beast team wants to shop. They need to walk allllllllllllllllllll the way back, buy shit, TP in - or walk allllllllllllllllllllll the way back into battle. That takes longer than 8 seconds. Which means, that if at any point erebus / beast lost that dual gold mine flag, this would be the time where they absolutely take it back and hold it for good.

 

Let's assume [? / Beast team] - ? DG player gets cloak of night to even out the EXPLOIT. Erebus has blood of the fallen, he is not forced into buying cloak. So erebus starts off with 800 more hp, health regen, and the ability to jump the gap, and all that ? demigod can do is jump the gap. Which means at level 1, that first fight for the dual gold mine flag, erebus / beast take the flag no contest for if erebus gets low on health, he can bite as well, and consume extra health, give slow, reduce enemy armor and do damage, while being healed by priests and health regen from BOTF. All that ? DG can do is jump the gap back to base, which doesnt help him get the friggin' DUAL GOLD MINE FLAG.

 

Also, I'll mention again that this map has a neutral flag that controls TWO GOLD MINES. If you don't have erebus on your team, and your ally goes to heal / shop you will have to fight 2v1 to protect that double gold mine flag. On the other hand, if you have an erebus on your team, he can bat swarm home - heal / shop - then bat swarm almost directly next to the TWO GOLD MINES / or he can buy a TP and TP in to battle. I'll say it again.... TWO GOLD MINES AT ONE FLAG. Having a direct advantage in map control, on a map where 1 neutral flag = TWO GOLD MINES is a huge advantage. You have double the income of the other team.

In summation I will leave you with a quote I took from your post above: "This has been mentioned before in several dedicated topics." Apparantely you never read them! Cuz you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. So you just troll forums and find posts without actually reading them? Then pass off the fact that someone else created a post, that you neglected to read, and put your nose in the air at everyone else because they are [sarcasm] so not in the loop if they never saw those other posts [/sarcasm]. You sir.......... are a fool and a douche bag.

 

DISCLAIMER: I do not hate erebus, I play random. I play all of the demi gods. Not calling for a nerf, someone was smart enough to figure this out, blame the developer for not finding this during testing............ especially on a map that has a neutral double gold mine........... which is retarded enough as it is.

 

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September 22, 2009 11:47:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Its a pretty lame move, usually used by the team getting their ass beat as a last ditch effort to come back.

This is the only time i have seen it. and the person in question did not start using it until we were beating down their towers at the 30& flag with our giants, which told me he knew all to well that it is an "undesirable" strat and only felt comfortable using it when the end was near.

I'm of the opinion that this was overlooked and that the map should be adjusted to increase the gap so this cannot happen. Being able to tele across gaps on other maps is no where near as bad as it is on crucible.

To do it on Exile you have to be already pushing them back anyway...on crucible you do it from neutral ground.

My two cents....

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September 22, 2009 11:59:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

which told me he knew all to well that it is an "undesirable" strat and only felt comfertable using it when the end was near.


Seriously?  I wouldn't think twice about doing it nor would it even cross my mind that it was an "undesireable strat".  It's just another metagame element to consider when you're playing on Cruciable in my opinion.  The exact same options are open to both teams so there's no real imbalance here in my eyes.

 

Though I'm all for nerfing Erebus

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September 23, 2009 12:20:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The exact same options are open to both teams so there's no real imbalance here in my eyes.

I think it's just too easy to do. Gaining access to the enemies base should be granted only after having earned it by pushing them back enough to get in. warping/swarming across a gap into the base at will from the start of the game, to me at least, defeats the purpose......

But meh..there are far more important things in the game that need attention.

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September 23, 2009 12:50:26 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting playgroundlegend,
Yes really, If a DG can do something with a standard ability, that only half of the cast (general) can do only when they pick a certain favor item (while erebus can go any favor item) it is an advantage.


Every Demigod has it's advantages over other Demigods. Every single one. Attempting to remove their uniqueness, their abilities, and the benefits and advantages that those abilities grant to them removes the uniqueness of playing each Demigod.

What you're complaining about is that Erebus's abilitly provides him with an additional advantage - I disagree. Bat Swarm is a warp ability - it warps him. Him being able to warp over distances is exactly what the ability was supposed to do. There is no exploit - no additional advantage. Erebus can't Warp into your base, insta-cap your portals, one-shot your Citadel and then send a picture to your phone of you crying with a soundclip of him laughing with the Muppets Show theme song looped. Learn to adapt.

I refuse to address the rest of your post due to the personal attacks contained within. If you have a problem with me, send me a private message rather then clogging up the forum with your rant. Good day.

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September 23, 2009 12:57:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Read my post, you guys posting after me are arguing over the details. Look at my post and see the big picture. I'll give you a hint it has to do with a word, that starts with G, is tangible, and is also the name of a color, and you can use it to buy stuff.

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September 23, 2009 1:03:37 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

ignore, double post

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September 23, 2009 1:13:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZehDon,


I refuse to address the rest of your post due to the personal attacks contained within. If you have a problem with me, send me a private message rather then clogging up the forum with your rant. Good day.

 

Translation: I refuse to address the rest of your post because it contains points that I cannot refute and are contrary to my original argument. Instead I will cherry pick 1 sentence out of your lengthy in-depth analysis, take it out of context, ignore the supporting evidence and claim that it is wrong.  I will then garner popular support by insisting that you are whining, and nobody likes a whiner, although your disclaimer clearly states how you are not whining. But if I have to mention that I read your disclaimer, than that would mean that I read the entire post and ignored everything in it and exposes the fact that I cherry pick my facts and skew them in my favor. Since I have so much of an ego that I cannot admit when I am wrong I will instead pretend to take the high ground of moral superiority and insist that I am too good to respond to you any further when in reality you are right and I am wrong.

"Erebus can't Warp into your base, insta-cap your portals, one-shot your Citadel and then send a picture to your phone of you crying with a soundclip of him laughing with the Muppets Show theme song looped. Learn to adapt.'

What I really mean to say when I say this is that of course erebus can't insta-cap, no one can. By drawing a false paralell between what you really said, and what I assume you inferred, I can create a slippery slope analogy that's littered with logical fallicies - throw in a joke about the muppets, and then put you down by saying learn to adapt.

"Attempting to remove their uniqueness, their abilities, and the benefits and advantages that those abilities grant to them removes the uniqueness of playing each Demigod." If his ability is to warp from home base, to a key neutral flag, why is this the only map where he can do this? Wouldn't make sense to give a demi god an ability that has it's biggest distinct advantage on only 1 map - right? Or perhaps it was something that was mistakenly overlooked by the developer - and can be exploited.

I have a put down for you, and it doesn't require snide comments, logical fallacies or word play - just facts. Here it is!

 

As of Wednesday, September 23rd 2009 - 1:10 AM Eastern Standard Time

Me:

Total Games - 268

Disconnects: 8

Win percentage: 82.8%

Rank: CG- 27 Ladder - 49

You:

Total Games - 48

Disconnects: 0

Win Percentage: 50%

Rank: CG - 2,384 Ladder - 2,971

ME > YOU

 

Perhaps instead of trolling the forums you should go play more demigod........ maybe then you'll stop referring to "normal 3v3 situations" ... on a 2v2 map

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September 23, 2009 2:24:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Oh boy.

Quoting playgroundlegend,
rant


I did read your entire post. It was a horribly constructed and presented argument filled with personal attacks at myself that failed to present a basic point other than you seem to believe that I hold myself above other players and that you're clearly better than me in every way and that the community needs to realise this point. If I come across this way, I apologise, however I'm not sure how you can come to such a conclusion - I treat nice people like nice people, and morons like morons. If you're being treated as a moron, it's more your fault than mine.

Now, considering this is probably the first direct replies you and I have exchanged, and forgive me if we've talked in the past, I find the absolute hostility contained within your ranting to be of the most wretched kind I've encountered on these forums and don't hesitate to suggest that you're the reason people find the community to be comprised of such a low calibre of human being. Calm down, take a breath, and think before clicking the post button.

Quoting playgroundlegend,
ME > YOU
Perhaps instead of trolling the forums you should go play more demigod........ maybe then you'll stop referring to "normal 3v3 situations" ... on a 2v2 map


Any map can support 5 players per team, and as 3 players versus 3 players is the current standard game this is where the most commonly occured and experienced scenarios will be found. As I mentioned, in a 1v1 setting Erebus' Bat Swarm ability on this one map can provide a large advantage - however in the standard 3v3 environment it's really not much of an issue... unless the enemy Demigod's are stacking 3 Erebus', in which case you're not playing very well if this is the corner stone of their strategy... and you still manage to lose.

As for the stats, congratulations you've played more games than me. I won't reply to this thread anymore, and will request that it's locked. Any usefullness it had has now been lost.

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September 23, 2009 3:10:32 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Ahhh FFS...

Gotta junp in on the side Zehdon here. Your stats vs his stats is meaningless.

I see you post everywhere, and you always have a negative smart ass attitude, yet you're consistently wrong.

This is your opinion. I think it is your attitude that is of some question.

There was no need for personal attacks of any kind here.....and the pissing contest you seem to want to have only hurts you, no one else. Not sure of any need to be so attacking here.....

Zehdon is a respected member of the community, your opinion notwithstanding....i could care less how many games he has won or lost....

Winning lots of games a respected community member does not make.

Lock please Kryo...or Op if you know how to do it.

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September 23, 2009 3:19:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

*sigh* the high and mighty defense:

"I treat nice people like nice people, and morons like morons. If you're being treated as a moron, it's more your fault than mine."

I snapped at you because of what you said to the original poster:

"This has been mentioned before in several dedicated topics. While Erebus has an ability that allows him to perform this, anyone can reproduce this move through the use of other items, as has already been mentioned. It's hardly an Erebus Exploit...."

The OP posted this:

"I guess some of the community knows about the ability of Erebus to exploit the narrow gaps in the crucible map.  I was surprised to see it used pretty heavily.  Erebus can easily batswarm into his own or the enemies base.  Major time-saver/exploit.  Seems like there are some people pretty good at using it.  Hope it's part of the patch."

How, in any way, does the OP's original post make him a moron? Or warrant a snide comment about how this has been mentioned before in several dedicated topics. It's not informative, it's condescending. if it was mentioned elsewhere, give the guy a link, help him out. If you remove the first sentence from your post, it's fine. But you went out of your way to put someone down while not contributing anything of value in the process. I joined the forums recently, but have been reading the forums for months now. This isn't the first time you've done something like this. So I decided to put you in your place in defense of the OP.

At this point, I agree with you, I never intended for more than a post or two between us regarding the issue but any more than this is absurd haha.

The only thing that still confuses me is after all of this, and threatening to close down a thread, all you had to say was:

"hey, read your post PGL, read the OP post, and the other posters in between, you all make the same point and perhaps what I originally said was wrong, my bad for being mean to the OP, thanks for teaching me something I didn't know and sorry to the OP for being rude."

And I would have responded with "No problem, glad you learned something, hopefully we'll play together some time - hit me up next time you're on"

Over the past 3 months I've seen you post everywhere on this forum, and not once did I ever learn anything from it. You've irritated me from before I was a forum member. This is pent up frustration I am dealing with here. What's the point? Who cares about what you have to say unless it's informative / accurate. As much as im an asshole, I talk too much, or whatever, I still make posts relevant to the game that people can learn from. Isn't that the whole point?

 

What's sad is this was the line I said that got you going: I see you post everywhere, and you always have a negative smart ass attitude, yet you're consistently wrong.

And all you accomplished with your forum blather was reaffirming that position. you're battling the entire forum on a discussion thats basically like arguing that water isn't wet. And then going on a tiff when everyone is like........... no you're wrong.

"I'm going to have this thread closed"

Translation: I'M TELLING MY MOMMY!

 

Just apologize without talking smack and I'll stop making you look foolish. The original poster was absolutely correct and the first thing you say is the quintissential (shoulda used the search function noooooob) forum response instead of helping the guy out. If you put people down on the forums, then people won't want to post. Which leaves less information on the forums, and makes it harder for players to develop - which kills the game and kills stardock. All for what? Putting someone down makes you feel good? You don't even know the OP. How selfish.

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September 23, 2009 3:46:49 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Playground, I read all the posts from start to finish, and I don't think ZehDon was trying to be condescending at all, right up until you called him out. Rather, it appears as if you've misread his post according to your personal opinion of his character. The underlined quote,

This has been mentioned before in several dedicated topics.
does not appear [to me] to be snide, but rather addresses the fact that more information and debate on the subject can be found through a deeper search of the forum, if need be. As Neilo stated, Don is a well respected member of the community, and as such I believe you should reconsider his moral fiber and reread the post in question. I'm not saying you're poor of mind to have suggested hostility, as it is well-known that textual conversations fail to convey much of the feeling as face-to-face debates. However, flaming someone is a poor way to remove hostility on the forums, and I think we can all agree that there's too much of that going around.

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September 23, 2009 3:56:02 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pseudomelon,
Playground, I read all the posts from start to finish, and I don't think ZehDon was trying to be condescending at all, right up until you called him out. Rather, it appears as if you've misread his post according to your personal opinion of his character. The underlined quote,
This has been mentioned before in several dedicated topics. does not appear [to me] to be snide, but rather addresses the fact that more information and debate on the subject can be found through a deeper search of the forum, if need be. As Neilo stated, Don is a well respected member of the community, and as such I believe you should reconsider his moral fiber and reread the post in question. I'm not saying you're poor of mind to have suggested hostility, as it is well-known that textual conversations fail to convey much of the feeling as face-to-face debates. However, flaming someone is a poor way to remove hostility on the forums, and I think we can all agree that there's too much of that going around.

 

Understood.

 

I apologize to anyone who was offended by my remarks in this thread. I apologize to ZehDon for making him feel bad. In the future, if anyone says anything that I perceive to be negative I will ignore it. I will continue to share my knowledge of the game with others.

I read your original post as such:

This has been mentioned before in several dedicated topics. While Erebus has an ability that allows him to perform this, anyone can reproduce this move through the use of other items, as has already been mentioned. It's hardly an Erebus Exploit. In fact, on any map he can jump corners in the lanes to increase the lead or close a the gap between him and his opponent - as can anyone else. I understand that this is the first time you've seen it, and in a 1v1 it's a massive advantage over his opponents. However, is the standard 3v3 match, it's really not as large an issue as you'd think if you're aware and ready for it.

Those seem like put downs to me. my bad

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September 23, 2009 5:48:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Right, so to the OP, a way to combat this.

When facing an Erebus on prison, by level 5 you and your partner need to be carrying TP scrolls and locks with you whenever possible. CotN or a warpstone will help, but are not strictly necessary. The catch to Erebus swarming over to your flag is that he's just exhausted his best escape skill, and provided you can solo (or double team) him, he basically needs a warpstone, TP scroll, or Cloak of the Night in order to get away. If he teleports and you can teleport, you can go ahead and chase. Believe me, when you beat the pudding out of him enough, he'll probably start to call it quits with that tactic

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September 23, 2009 6:11:53 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

not talking about erebus, but i don't think you can do this with cloack of night and/or warpstone. their distance is to low. erebus needs bat swarm level 2 wich has greater distance. well, i didn't tried it so i'm just guessing.

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September 23, 2009 6:17:50 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting playgroundlegend,

Let's assume [? / Beast team] - ? DG player gets cloak of night to even out the EXPLOIT. Erebus has blood of the fallen, he is not forced into buying cloak. So erebus starts off with 800 more hp, health regen, and the ability to jump the gap, and all that ? demigod can do is jump the gap. Which means at level 1, that first fight for the dual gold mine flag, erebus / beast take the flag no contest for if erebus gets low on health, he can bite as well, and consume extra health, give slow, reduce enemy armor and do damage, while being healed by priests and health regen from BOTF. All that ? DG can do is jump the gap back to base, which doesnt help him get the friggin' DUAL GOLD MINE FLAG.
Woah woah back up when was batswarm a lvl 1 ability? I miss an update?

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