Armor vs. HP

By on September 15, 2009 3:53:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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Okay, I've been playing a lot more online and I'm curious what the thinking is between items that increase armor vs. items that increase HP vs. items that increase RATE of HP recovery.

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September 15, 2009 3:56:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

HP > Armor > Recovery Rate

Items that do multiple of the three are better than items that only do one.

-- Tukulis

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September 15, 2009 3:59:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hey frog,

 

There have been a ton of discussions on this.  The prevailing wisdom is that stacking hp gives a reserve to all types of damage while stacking armor only partially mitigates autoattack dmg leaving you wide open to ability dmg.  Rate of HP recovery is important, but since most of the best HP stacking items also buff HP regen it doesn't come in to the debate as much.  Hope that helps for a simple overview.

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September 15, 2009 4:12:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I normally prefer hp regen over hp stacking, but DG doesn't allow for enough of it to matter much. Armor is extremely handy when facing large numbers of creeps, minions, or fast attacking DGs.

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September 15, 2009 4:23:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hey Frogboy! Isn't Demigod absolutely addicting? HP stacking is definitely better (unless facing minion builds or Rook's towers). If one team stacks health, and the other does not, it's GG. The only exception I'd make is buying scalemail. It's cheap for what it offers.

 

Here's a standard health stacking build:

Favor item: Blood of the Fallen (at least one player on your team needs this)

Banded Armor

Unbreakable Boots

Nimoth Chest Armor

Hauberk of Life

Narmoth's Ring

Orb of Defiance

 

If your game goes really long, upgrade to a Groeffling Warplate.

 

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September 15, 2009 4:37:58 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Epiphenomenon,
Hey Frogboy! Isn't Demigod absolutely addicting? HP stacking is definitely better (unless facing minion builds or Rook's towers). If one team stacks health, and the other does not, it's GG. The only exception I'd make is buying scalemail. It's cheap for what it offers.
 

Somebody agrees with me. Scalemail is amazing early game. It can be 20% damage if it's your first armor item. Which really helps considering it's mere 400 gold pricetag.

As a contribution to the actual topic I feel the same as Tukulis.

There aren't many armor only items that are worth getting in my opinion. Crusaders plate is the only one i consider and only in a minion build due to it's large minion buffs. I'd say make armor more useful early in the game or give armor a less powerful spell mitigation and make auto attack armor weaker. I'd rather have 5k armor and have 50% auto attack mitigation and 25% spell damage mitigation than a full 70% auto attack mitigation. This way armor wouldn't be OP but it would become more effective.

HP regen is only bad on some demigods where other items are more useful. Maybe you could create some HP regen ONLY items that maybe provide some damage tacked on to make them appealing. This would be a very good combo for people like UB and Sedna who like the damage and regen.

*added* And thanks frogboy for still paying attention to the forums. Another suggestion would to be while in a lobby to ask other players what they think of this or that. This would get you some nice honest answers that isn't just the forum community (which is barely a rough estimate of what the casual player thinks).

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September 15, 2009 4:48:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ,
Okay, I've been playing a lot more online and I'm curious what the thinking is between items that increase armor vs. items that increase HP vs. items that increase RATE of HP recovery.

Scalemail + Bandad armor + Unbreakable + Nimoth = cheap and effective (u are HP stacked and with a good armor to mitigate), and u have one slot to put what u need more, Vlemish would be my natural choice. Those items, almost on any DG is effective. U have more money? Buy Cit upgrades (currency, grunts, grunts power) and consumables, like sigil of vitality, TP scrolls, small potions, Gadgets, locks. Enjoy your game

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September 15, 2009 4:55:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

HP > Armor > Recovery Rate

Items that do multiple of the three are better than items that only do one.

-- Tukulis

This.

HP stacking is kinda lame considering priest minions do % based heals.

i find stacking armor and recovery rate are abit useless imo.

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September 15, 2009 5:08:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I generally agree wholeheartedly with the posters above.  HP stacking helps with *all* incoming damage while armor only helps against normal attacks.  When combined it's even better.  HP stacking alone essentially automatically gives health regen as well as priest/idol heals are % based, and those heals greatly outpace any regen normally available..  There is also the fact that items like Sigal of Vitality are % based.  Regen is largely only useful for recovering any harassment coming in, but it doesn't really help all that much in a fight with 2+ demigods wailing on you.  Also, regen isn't really all that spectacular considering how quickly one can heal back up to full with a trip to a crystal (which generally doesn't take much more than 30 seconds time given how small most maps are), drinking a potion from the demigod you just killed, or soaking up priest/idol/sedna heals. 

Regardless of the demigod I play or the map I play or the opponents team(given standard settings, conquest game), I'll usually end up buying primarily HP/Armor items, probably one of three mana helms,  TP scrolls, flag locks, sigals of vitality, and the normal citadel upgrades, normally with the Blood of the Fallen as a favor. 

 

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September 15, 2009 5:09:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Armor: When you look at your start armor you see that you can have a lot of armor for very small money. Especially demigods with low armor like Rook need armor items. But you need only one item and you can buy hp with it, too.

Health recovery: Imho damage of spells is too high to be useful. But some HR is nice against all the small damage you get from creeps/minions and maybe some normal attacks from other players. One item or skill (sedna in team) is ok.

Health: You can use your spells instead of getting instant killed by a well playing team. You have a better chance to run away so you get more money and the enemy no money for kills.

 

So only health stacking doesn't help. You need some armor and some health recovery. But you can get both with health items. So just stack health and keep an eye on the items, so you get some armor and hr, too.

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September 15, 2009 6:43:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yeah. The big points are here. Priests heal based on max HP, and most damage comes from casting versus auto attacks anyways.

Armor of Vengeance though is a very good item.

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September 15, 2009 6:45:42 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The best by far IMO is HP.  Because stacking it seems to be the most effective.  The hardest matches Ive played are where the other team only stacks HP.  I see no reason to buy armor.

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September 15, 2009 7:14:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Personally I would like to see some more effective armor and more +dmg items. 

 

Right now Auto Attack can beusefull, but spells are hwere its at. 

If you were to buf AA, and items that contribute to it, armor would be more important.

 

I like the idea of having armor help agianst AA and spells, that would make it much more viable.

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September 15, 2009 7:17:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

In the Armour VS HP debate, HP wins as it provides defense against all types of damage. It's a sure-fire solution. However, sometimes the solution is neither; I stack Mana when I play LE, for example, and chew through my opponents because I can just wear them down. Except Oak. Oak's a cockroach.

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September 15, 2009 8:24:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hp stacking is essential, but you HAVE to combine it with armor, and be mana stable. Your hp is worth very little vs Beast/Oak or other heavy hitters if you have 5% migation.

hp + 40%+ Migation = KING.

Making Nimots and groffling my favorite combo.

Regen, the least of the 3, its nice but wont really save you in larger fights.

Apart from hp, Mana makes kills in most cases so id say, 2 helmets mandatory on most gods. (yes yes your ooze beast does not, but he would do allot more dmg if he had spit as well )

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September 15, 2009 8:29:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I stack both if possible. Scale Mail and Banded Mail tend to be my early game buys. Narmoth's Chestplate, Unbreakable Boots, Vlemish, Armor of Vengeance,, Groffling Warplate, Nimoth's Ring...

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September 15, 2009 11:27:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZehDon,
In the Armour VS HP debate, HP wins as it provides defense against all types of damage. It's a sure-fire solution. However, sometimes the solution is neither; I stack Mana when I play LE, for example, and chew through my opponents because I can just wear them down. Except Oak. Oak's a cockroach.

Okay, ive heard that FB likes to play LE so what i would say is mana first then hp. Why? because of bite. bite does 4 major imp things it heals dmges slows and reducces armor. if i buy banded instead of scaled helm i tend to die more often because i cant spam bite as often also teh slow can help you get out if you have no hp. I usually go monks BLotF then scaled + banded or vlemish and banded next trip is vlemish and if i can afford it bishops past then it depends on whats happening

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September 15, 2009 11:40:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Maccilia,

Quoting ZehDon, reply 13In the Armour VS HP debate, HP wins as it provides defense against all types of damage. It's a sure-fire solution. However, sometimes the solution is neither; I stack Mana when I play LE, for example, and chew through my opponents because I can just wear them down. Except Oak. Oak's a cockroach.

Okay, ive heard that FB likes to play LE so what i would say is mana first then hp. Why? because of bite. bite does 4 major imp things it heals dmges slows and reducces armor. if i buy banded instead of scaled helm i tend to die more often because i cant spam bite as often also teh slow can help you get out if you have no hp. I usually go monks BLotF then scaled + banded or vlemish and banded next trip is vlemish and if i can afford it bishops past then it depends on whats happening

I'd put Scalemail in there before the Vlemish. 600 armor for 400g is huge, that's 20% more AA absorbed, so you have: Monks/BotF, Scaled, Banded, Scalemail, Vlemish, usally Nimoth, then better priest. As soon as Currency I is available, always get that first.

 

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September 16, 2009 12:23:55 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Don't forget about life steal! It's pretty interesting as well and you don't see it on a huge amount of items. Total weapon damage, and attack speed all affect it, so it's a pretty complicated way to go about getting health back.

Against erebus or QoT it's absolutely critical that you reach an armor level capable of negating their armor reducers.

It follows this equation: 100*(1-(2500/(2500 +A))), where A=armor.

Here's a very, very simple google doc that'll let you put in your armor value to get your mitigation, which is already covered on demigoddb to an extent, but this'll let you figure what it would look like at negative values and unusual positive ones you reach when you're affected by bite/spikes.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah6a5m2rBbMydFhtbTI1Y2dVNTBMUENtUDZyVm8yVGc&hl=en

One thing you'll see is that damage scales incredibly quickly at low and negative armor values.

 

Really when it comes to total health there's a few things you've gotta ask yourself:

  1. Do I have monks/priests?
  2. Am I engaging in extended fights or being worn down by snipes/spits/RoI/etc.?

Ultimately I would say that the way items are built debate over what you should prioritize is a bit academic. Personally if I could pick 15 health per second or 600 total health I would pick health per second in many cases, such as when regulus is sniping me repeatedly to wear me down or when UB is spitting and running over and over again.

It's all a moot point though because there is no regen focused item out there before artifacts, just as there really is no pure health or pure armor item after scaled that is really worth its cost. The items everyone picks are hybrid items, and not even because they appreciate every aspect of the item, but because the pricing is set to values which guide your hand regardless of your appreciation for the item as a whole.

Banded Armor, Nimoth's Chest, etc. are items that you're not going to pass up on no matter what, even if you're unconcered with the regen on banded or armor on nimoth's, there's just a dearth of alternatives. Same idea with Narmoth's Ring. I'm sure many people buy it because of the health/life steal and wouldn't care one bit if in the next patch it had 600 armor instead of 20 health per second.

 

 

Personally though I absolutely love regen. Even 30 health a second is pretty major, there's really a lot more downtime than people realize between fights, not to mention fights themselves can last quite a while in some situations.

I would even go so far as to say that I'd be interested in regen potions, maybe they could either be cheaper than normal potions or heal for more, but do it over 10-20 seconds (a heal over time skill would be a cool ability for future DGs too).

 

Really though I would say that priests and monk idols have such a dramatic effect on virtually every battle that in the end that health stacking is virtually always your best option once a basic level of armor is obtained. If those units gave a static amount of health back instead of a percentage you'd probably see way more diversity out there. You could make priests scale off of unit health or damage upgrades and monks already have four ranks which could be tuned to whatever you felt were appropriate.

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September 16, 2009 12:59:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Regen stacking can be really effective with Sedna because she can get an extra +44 HPS with her abilities.  It's possible to get her to +80 or +90 HPS.  Considering most +HPS items also stack health, it's win-win.

Health is still king though.  Health is always better than speed, because you can't run away from fights forever.  Tanks will hold flags that speed builds cannot.

Armor's benefits taper off.  By level 10, the biggest damage threat is specials, possibly excepting UB.  You need some armor to mitigate autodamage, but not much.  Nimroth and Groffling are the best armors as they have both health and armor.

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September 16, 2009 2:17:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I forgot about life steal. The cool thing about it is that it procs off of auto attack damage before armor is taken into account. An UB with a mageslayer and narmoth's ring is a lifesteal king.

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September 16, 2009 6:02:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Obscenitor,
Really though I would say that priests and monk idols have such a dramatic effect on virtually every battle that in the end that health stacking is virtually always your best option once a basic level of armor is obtained. If those units gave a static amount of health back instead of a percentage you'd probably see way more diversity out there. You could make priests scale off of unit health or damage upgrades and monks already have four ranks which could be tuned to whatever you felt were appropriate.

This

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September 16, 2009 7:41:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I would say armour first then HP unless you are going against TB

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September 16, 2009 11:12:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I found Obscenitor's reply above incredibly insightful, and not just for the Life-Steal mention.  I don't think it makes sense (totally) to say that stacking HP is ALWAYS your best option.  It depends on the map, your DG build, and your opponents' DG's.  I am far from an expert player, and so I don't completely grasp the implications of these variables, but I understand they exist.  If there's a UB and Reg on the opposite team going full DPS on me, Armor suddenly becomes more valuable.  If I want to take towers down more effectively, armor is more valuable.  If there are big +Mana flags on the map, then a favor item or regular item that works via increased %mana recovery becomes more vaulable.  Etc.

However, I will agree that stacking health is a relatively EASY and straightforward thing to do, and is particularly beneficial for NEW players learning the game.  As a relative newbie myself, I find that my survival rate increases dramatically (esp. early game) if I go the BotF + Banded (or Monks) route, and so on.  More advanced players can take greater risks, because they know how to react more quickly to dangerous situations.  I can definitely see the power of an ultra-Mana build in the hands of a strong LE player.

This is similar to the idea (which I think Obscenitor has also pointed out before) that the Rook and Queen are not as underpowered as people may think they are.  It is just that they are harder to play.  I have seen some exceptional Rooks and Queens, and in the hands of a good player, these builds are (nearly) equal to the best UB's out there.  In the hands of a noob (like myself), Rook and Queen are a nightmarish detriment to team success.

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September 16, 2009 12:39:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Stacking hp is not always the best solution, but for generals it is particularly nice. For instance, if you have monks, then getting BotF isn't +5 hp/s, it is +15hp/s. 800*10%=80/8 seconds --> 10hp/s. I think one of the biggest reasons that hp/s is not often worth it (Narmoths being an exception) is because getting +hp also gives you +hp/s if you are a general.

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September 17, 2009 12:12:09 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Against erebus or QoT it's absolutely critical that you reach an armor level capable of negating their armor reducers.

Did they ever cap max armor reduction?  QoT + Erebus and suddenly they are auto-attacking you for 2.5x values..they go crit heavy and it gets ludicrous - all your HP isn't going to help you when your armor goes negative..

The items everyone picks are hybrid items, and not even because they appreciate every aspect of the item, but because the pricing is set to values which guide your hand regardless of your appreciation for the item as a whole.

It's like going to the supermarket which advertises 20 different kinds of bread, but you always buy whole wheat because all the white bread is moldy and the rest of it cost $40 a loaf - you don't buy the whole wheat because it's better for you, you buy it because it's the only option.

I would even go so far as to say that I'd be interested in regen potions, maybe they could either be cheaper than normal potions or heal for more, but do it over 10-20 seconds

Yep, an interruptible HoT consumable would be nice

Really though I would say that priests and monk idols have such a dramatic effect on virtually every battle that in the end that health stacking is virtually always your best option once a basic level of armor is obtained.

pretty much..there are some specialist exceptions but in PUGs it's risky to do anything else..

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