The Heretical Thought: Demigod is Not DotA

Wherein I manage to be cast out from On High

By SquidLord on September 5, 2008 5:11:52 AM from

I'm going to give voice to the heretical words which have frequently been pressing in my mind of late, and I'm certain they'll lead to my opinion being considered apostate and the bulk of those who've been loudest and most long-winded on this forum looking to lash me to old pines and burn me alive.

And those words are these:

I have no interest in Demigod being made into a prettier DotA. More importantly (from my perspective), I am not now nor have I ever been a DotA player. I've never liked the obsession with go-faster, with pointless elaboration for no real gain in gameplay, with proving their hardcoreness by berating others for not being go-faster enough themselves, with some perverse idea that if a RTS game is anything other than DotA that it's inherently inferior.

Demigods which start out significantly stronger than the zerg are not bad. I realize that starting out as barely more powerful than a little zergling is state-of-the-art in DotA. Demigod is not DotA.
Games which run for shorter or longer times than what you're used to in DotA are not bad. Demigod is not DotA.
A small map size that doesn't take twenty minutes to trudge across is not bad. This one's particularly galling given that this is Beta 1 and the bonus to gameplay is not the addition of maps which are large, but maps with complex pathing, multiple-splitting lanes and so on. Demigod is not DotA.
The lack of a complicated, twitchy sub-game of item recipes which require you to remember more lore than the CNC Organic Chemistry reference is not bad. Demigod is not DotA.
The lack of obsessive micromanagement of your hero and focus on a broader understanding of the battle and positioning is not bad. If last-hitting and pixel-level control of your character is a necessity to play well, the game is not accessible. Demigod is not DotA.
Not taking two hours to play an average game is not bad. While I realize that not having a life is considered de rigeur for gamers historically, let me point out the games with the biggest sales for the last decade or so are the ones where dipping in and out amidst a busy lifestyle is doable. And thank Hades for that. Demigod is not DotA.

I am not a DotA player. I never have been. I will, thank the powers of Hell, never will be. If, in fact, the majority of beta players for Demigod are DotA players, then Stardock / GPG need to do some extensive outside-the-group testing when they get to the point of deciding on gameplay flow and refinement. Demigod is not DotA, nor should it be. It must be it's own thing with strong differentiation if it wants to make it in the marketplace. You might ask, "Why try to redesign a game and improve on it when theres already a wildly successful model that works beautifully and draws massive amounts of players...all in a 3MB custom map file for a game that came out in 2001." Partly because the number of players that are into DotA aren't enough to sustain a commercial game in today's market? Because ripping off gameplay entire from an extant game is not only cheap but insulting? Because -- and I know this might be hard to believe -- DotA isn't the end-all be-all of "AI zerg army" gaming?

I've followed a lot of GPG and Stardock's games over the years. I have faith that between them, they can create a game that breaks new ground, conceptually and technically. I've seen them do it. I have no doubt that they'll continue doing so in Demigod and the inevitable expansions thereof. I've already expressed that trust in the most powerful way possible: With my wallet.

I would hate to think that just because I'm not a DotA evangelist that my opinion isn't thought of as important or meaningful.

Things I'm happy to see in Demigod:

I can be powerful from the beginning. I'm a demigod, by Crom, and I can bloody well prove it! Out the gate I can blast my enemies with fire, put a bolt through their noggins, or stomp them flat by the tens. And it's only up from there!
It doesn't take ten minutes from starting the game to getting where things are interesting. I can walk out just a bit and start impressively laying waste!
I don't have to concentrate on hitting just-so on this zerg or that zerg. I can stomp my way to a good position, then trust the AI will Do The Right Thing(tm) while I focus on dropping the right skill at the right time for impact. I can strategize, not be a tactics monkey.
I don't have to know sixty+ characters, all their hard and soft counters, and an entire library of references on items to play the game. I can jump in, beat the crap out of things and actually work my way into gameplay without having to be a reference text.

This is Beta 1. If it's anything like the Sins Beta 1, things are in for a huge overhaul between now and release. (Though to be honest I'd like to see Demigod's beta cycle be made up of more, shorter betas. More fluid evolution with feedback seems to me more useful.) That established, I'd love to see gameplay move away from DotA'ish things rather than toward. It's a huge, explorable gamespace. Doing the same thing is not only boring, it's done. Time for new things.

Things I'd like to see in Demigod:

I'd like to see a couple of Generals soon. They're why I'm really interested in Demigod, truth be told. The fact that my preferred style of play (rear-guard / support / building) is promised alongside my friend's favoured style of play (action-RPG agressive) is one of the biggest reasons for me to buy the game. I can't be the only one.
A sample of one of the 5x5 maps. We've seen screenshots, but the engine seems to be really, terrifyingly stable given its release status. If we're really going to beat on it, clearly we'll need a bigger stick.
In line with the above, an active setting for increasing the flow of the zerg through the portals. I can't be the only one who wants to double the flow rate and wade right into a huge bloody mess of ugly.
Some kind of contracting bar that displays the time / threshold until your next wave of zerg comes through. I hate to be standing out front with my pants down and the last of my wave dies around me with no idea how long until the next bunch rolls through.
Some Generals. Wait, I said that.
The unification of your rear-base shopping mall into a couple of buildings. I like having to either die or walk back to gear up; that's fine. But as is buying things is a right PitA.
A bit of documentation on the zerglings and powers. Even with a general idea of what I want to do, I'm spending time mouse-waving to get effect ideas. Zerglings need a mouse-over tip which defines a short description of their role and some general stats. (Use the Fudge-esque Poor/Average/Fair/Good/Great/Superb instead of hard numbers for bonus points.)
Did I say more Generals?

Bug-wise, I don't think I've anything to report that hasn't been me-too'd into dead horse material. It's been disgustingly bug free for what passes for many companies' releases; that it's an early beta should make everyone sit up and take notice.

In short and in summary:

Demigod is not DotA. Don't ask for it to be. If you have the urge to do so, stop, consider, and ask yourself, "How can this be made less like DotA and more fun?" That's the kind of thinking that pioneers and improves.

Besides, if they feel the need to borrow from an older game, Majesty would be a good call. Just sayin', yo. (And, yes, I know it's due an updated release in short order.)

+7 Karma | 100 Replies

Actually I did read it. The "TLDR" was for dramatic effect...which I think was only made successful from your reply. Thanks.

Quoting MetDragon,

reply 24

Quoting jsj0486, reply 23TLDR
Why are you even posting then? Nobody cares that you were too lazy to read this thread. What possible reason could make you think "Oh I'll tell him that I didn't read his post because it was too long, even after it's been discussed for 3 pages! This post will be helpful and informative! Derr derr!"

Actually I did read it. The "TLDR" was for dramatic effect...which I think was only made successful from your reply. Thanks

wow, I posted twice, hoping to help get this resolved...

Item recipes are the big thing in the discussion, as an example of good/bad things in DotA.

DotA has been around for ~7 years, SEVEN YEARS!, thats a lot of time to perfect a game/mod, hell, another thing, DotA now itsnt even DotA in basic, the original DotA (1.1 earliest I know of, and played) was about, ALL ABOUT, back dooring (not sexual), and taking out towers, getting the game over quick, there wasnt even a river connecting the lanes, so it was hard to gank people, it was u and our lane partner (if you had one). SO, DotA 6.54b isnt even like DotA 1.1, thus making new DotA, NOT DotA.

What ever DotA is, any game made (like I said before) with:

-Lanes

-single controllable units

-towers

-creeps spawns

-assassins

is then DotA, right? thats what your saying in context, anything that you can connect to DotA, is bad, NOT ALL IS BAD! sure, the people that play, or have played since it came to being know the game inside and out, and there are leavers gamely, but lets look at what we like about the game, and talk of that, dont bash DotA, look at it with open arms, ready to cut down anything bad, and hug anything good, weve done much killing, but part of DotA needs a hug, what is that hug?...

Item Recipes? 91 heroes? mechanics? UI? Skills? what is it? what is good?

I mentioned IR (item recipes), I also stated before, and no one really said much about it but let me restate it:

"I dont want Demigod to BE DotA, I want it similar, with the good in the game, the bad can go, idc for it. an example of bad are the recipes, one or two is good (for like end game uber WTFPWN items) but not for core items." - Reaver

Its bold, can you see it now?

Thats my general thought about Demigod - Dota, Take the Dota Good, and make it Demigod awesome, take the DotA - Bad, make it a unique example or idea in or about the game... try to think positive, this is one big ass slam fest, no more, now on lets keep this s**t civilized, cmon, no more trolls, bashes, or denouncing, lets give well thought out ideas and suggestions... I know we can do it, we are fighting with thick skulls, quick witty replies, thinking skills, ideas, and insults... lets turn it to Demigod instead of our selves (just not insults, that can go)

if any of you see fit to bash me, your pathetic, im trying to turn this outta control beast around, and if you do think im wrong, say it, dont call me an idiot or a retard, just say "hey, nice post but I disagree because..."

im not trying to be your friggin mother, but this is redic, you guys are fighting about stuff that is just like, wtf, cmon, talk to Tyo or Kryo about it, get their opinion about what you think needs to be in game and out, then go from there...

we need to work together instead of rending this family apart...

This discussion is moot. If DemiGod becomes close to the quality of DoTA then it will succeed. But will Starcraft 2 looming on the horizon and Aeon of Strife coming bak to completely PWN DoTA, I don't see how DemiGod can beat it.

DemiGod should be trying to be better than Aeon of Strife for SC2.

Demigod is a great game in its own right and it is fair to compare it to DotA as long as the comparisons are constructive, lots of people seem to be attacking things about demigod just because they are diferent to DotA. It is also not fair to attack anyone trying to compare the two, because although they are tottaly diferent games they are essentialy the only games in this unique genre.

As long as the new features that take the place of the DotA features will stay interesting for as long as the DotA ones have people wont be complaining. The thing is that people tend to be talking about Demigod as if it is the Beta.

Reavers post is good.

and Aeon of Strife most likely wont take from DotA, unless korea wants it to...

Quoting Reaver,

reply 3

wow, I posted twice, hoping to help get this resolved...
"I dont want Demigod to BE DotA, I want it similar, with the good in the game, the bad can go, idc for it. an example of bad are the recipes, one or two is good (for like end game uber WTFPWN items) but not for core items." - Reaver

Its bold, can you see it now?

now, see, that´s the problem. I played dota for years, and I played other AOS maps. And I think, the recipe system is GOOD. Not that it´s perfect, but it´s definately one of the strengths, dota has. From MY point of view.

Then you said if I remember correctly, that you think last-hitting is a thing we should take over. You even say we should take over denying. Ok, last-hitting can be a good thing, but only if it fits the meta-game (it fits dota, but not every AOS !!). Denying is very criticized, because it doesnt add much to the game besides "work". I´m neutral to denying (because I do pretty well there , know some tricks and about balance problems), but to call it a strength of dota? That´s not even funny, in my humble opinion. If it fits demigod (what i doubt), why not, but you may get the point:

The problem is, the same thing these guys call a strength, makes some other people quit...

I love dota and for it to be dota inspired is great. If they build off that and fix its few problems that dota had it could be great.

The Recipe system is good imo too. I like feeling I'm building up to something along with building my character.

As Reaver said. The trick is to do what WoW did which was take all the goods and leave out all the bads, then BAM, even non-blizz fanboys are playing it.

Take the good out of DotA but then leave out all the crap .

But Jebo, is 80+ heroes good or bad? Is having to memorize wat items to buy good/bad? Is recipes good or bad?

With different people some are good, and some are bad.

denying and lasting hitting should NOT be in the game, ive had a change of heart...

Recipes are such horse **** too, having to memorize what everything needs is just stupid, it then becomes more like DotA (take this as good or bad) because its more leaning toward an item game then a skill game, Id rather have games be based on use of skills then whats in your inventory and anyway, half the time nubs sit in base trying to figure out what items are needed for another one, and where they are. Like I said, a few recipes are good, but only for WTFPWNAGE items, not things that are a core item on a hero/demigod...

so to sum it up:

-UBERWTFPWNAGE recipes are good, imo

-All good items are recipes are bad, imo

and lets see, ~8-12 demigods that have a way of being different then other peoples ~8-12 demigods OR 91 of em... learn 8-12 demigod skills and play styles or 91... hmm, thats actually a hard one, I like having choices, but also a select few...

imo 8-12 unique, quality choices is better than 91 similar choices.

Quoting Reaver,

reply 7

and Aeon of Strife most likely wont take from DotA, unless korea wants it to...

Oh it definitely will. People will instantly jump on whoever makes the first Aeon of Strife map. Imagine Starcraft 2 engine, starcraft 2 type heroes (futuristic, machine gun toting terrans or slimy zerg or slender protoss) ability to control bigger units using your own heroes (ie tanks, battlecruisers etc)

It's going to be a really good mod.

Quoting Reaver,

reply 12

denying and lasting hitting should NOT be in the game, ive had a change of heart...

Recipes are such horse **** too, having to memorize what everything needs is just stupid, it then becomes more like DotA (take this as good or bad) because its more leaning toward an item game then a skill game, Id rather have games be based on use of skills then whats in your inventory and anyway, half the time nubs sit in base trying to figure out what items are needed for another one, and where they are. Like I said, a few recipes are good, but only for WTFPWNAGE items, not things that are a core item on a hero/demigod...

so to sum it up:

-UBERWTFPWNAGE recipes are good, imo

-All good items are recipes are bad, imo

and lets see, ~8-12 demigods that have a way of being different then other peoples ~8-12 demigods OR 91 of em... learn 8-12 demigod skills and play styles or 91... hmm, thats actually a hard one, I like having choices, but also a select few...

see, if one player is not even a few days sure of his opinion, what to say about the whole community potentially buying that game ?

few days? that post was a while ago, and I had the change of heart right after I posted that, edit button ftl...

and starcraft sux, I hate starcraft with a freaking passion, such a horrid game, damn fan-boys...

sounds more like you are an anti-fanboy

on the matter of item recipes , they have the major flaw that you most likely would need to remove the ability to drop items if you don't want the game to get stupid mechanics like "all buy one item which is needed for the most powerful artifact, then one of them picks it up and owns everyone". Item dropping and exchanging is a cool thing which can add lots of depth for demigod (for example you drop your mana regen helmet if you have full mana and your ally can pick it up), more depth and skill (your enemy could warp in and grab the item) than recipes add in my opinion.

(While you can drop items in DotA, doing that with a few exceptions is forbidden in all DotA leagues/tournaments iirc, in public games people usually don't know each other and don't do things like that anyways so its fine there as well most times)

@reaver: now do you agree that it´s not that easy to differ strengths from weaknesses or not Oo ?

at least we could agree on this:

In the end only the uniqueness and the fun of the game matter anyways, if it´s like dota or not...

Quoting g3nehmster,

reply 18

@recipes: I dont think mechanics are a problem, even dota, a mod, gets it done . Still, I don´t want a recipe system for the sake of having a recipe system. But mechanics should definately not be a matter. Rather balance, originality, functionality, strategic options and dynamic.

@reaver: now do you agree that it´s not that easy to differ strengths from weaknesses or not Oo ?

at least we could agree on this:

In the end only the uniqueness and the fun of the game matter anyways, if it´s like dota or not...

for me its easy, cuz I look at the game in context, the long run, and other possibilities that come from them (college ftw) and have basically summarized my thoughts...

There are actually not too many items in DotA, and the recipes are basic. If you do not get which items go together after a day, you have mental problems.

So you are actually saying you want Demigod to be a lazy version of DotA? W/o micromanagment, interesting items, good length, ect?

I don't get this whole recipe thing. If you can get the magical boots by combining the hat that costs $2000 with the gloves that cost $5000... why not just have the store sell the magical boots for $7000 instead? Am I misunderstanding how that works?

Quoting Curseman,

reply 21

THE ADVANTAGES OF THE RECIPE SYSTEM HERE FINALLY AND ANNOUNCED IN CAPITAL LETTERS:

- the "parts" of an item can be achieved part-wise

-> You will take profit out of having a part, and you still will get the good item without needing to sell the item

-->Selling is most often money waste, due to that you can counter the enemies item built, since he won´t just sell his items and buy new

-> You will lose less money due to dying if you get your items part-wise

--> which results in another item attribute. The built-up (it´s like +strength)

-> you can change your item built if needed by buying other recipes which are based on a same part.

the disadvantages:

-> since the builtup is another item attribute, more balancing is needed

-> item-builts are not fully adaptable

-> in the beginning it is hard to understand it

not that im all for a recipe system, but some things needed to be clarified. The Recipe system is NOT senseless.

it does have a sense to it. It's an idea that has a lot of good points, but it also takes a lot of time to figure out what items lead to what. not only do you need two or three items to make one, but then sometimes you need two or three of those built up items to build up another item. The problems I had when I first started playing Dota was not knowing where to find all the base items. There are so many shops and different items in the shops that i spent minutes at the base trying to figure out what to get while i was not in the field getting money/experience. Another problem was that because I could buy better items in parts, I felt like i HAD to buy them in parts, which made me constantly run back to base to buy items.

Now I don't think the whole idea is completely flawed, but it could definitely use some work to make it easier for newer players. I think maybe combining two items here and there might be cool, but some recepies just call for too much.

I want to say something (epic start):

Demigod MUSTN'T be DotA for gods sake.

-DotA gets boring after you played it a little while.

-In DotA you'll know who will win after the first 20min. the rest of the game is just levelup for fun.

-Every game in DotA is like: Wait a sec... I think i've played exact the same game last round. It just misses variety(now, don't start wining and say: uuuh, there are a lot of different items and heroes and ZOMG!!!)

-Finally: DotA is just a funmap for a game releaed in 2003!!

It must be a lot more complex and show up with more variety than DotA, I don't want to pay 50 bucks for a game which is just better than a free funmap.

Over and Out.

yeah it is, its a $50 free funmap with other funmaps, unique demigods that get more unique, and has offical developer support, and an almost naked chick.

Item recipes, the big one right now, eh? well I still say no, first off, its too DotA-ish, not by a lot, its just, not right for the first true game inspired by DotA. You see the underlined word 8 words back? that means if somethings in DotA, it doesnt have to go in just because its there. Make a unique way that is new yet makes people see it has roots in DotA, like Innociv's example...

:::So you are actually saying you want Demigod to be a lazy version of DotA? W/o micromanagment, interesting items, good length, ect?:::

well, lets see, most people dont want it to BE Dota, so lazy? no... second, how long have you been fallowing this game? Generals are all about microing (this being said, WE NEED A DAMN GENERAL!). Yes, items need variety right now, but we are only looking at a few of them at the moment. good length? a 30-50 minute game is good for me. What lengths are you thinking of? 50-90 minutes?

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The Heretical Thought: Demigod is Not DotA

Wherein I manage to be cast out from On High