The Heretical Thought: Demigod is Not DotA

Wherein I manage to be cast out from On High

By SquidLord on September 5, 2008 5:11:52 AM from

I'm going to give voice to the heretical words which have frequently been pressing in my mind of late, and I'm certain they'll lead to my opinion being considered apostate and the bulk of those who've been loudest and most long-winded on this forum looking to lash me to old pines and burn me alive.

And those words are these:

I have no interest in Demigod being made into a prettier DotA. More importantly (from my perspective), I am not now nor have I ever been a DotA player. I've never liked the obsession with go-faster, with pointless elaboration for no real gain in gameplay, with proving their hardcoreness by berating others for not being go-faster enough themselves, with some perverse idea that if a RTS game is anything other than DotA that it's inherently inferior.

Demigods which start out significantly stronger than the zerg are not bad. I realize that starting out as barely more powerful than a little zergling is state-of-the-art in DotA. Demigod is not DotA.
Games which run for shorter or longer times than what you're used to in DotA are not bad. Demigod is not DotA.
A small map size that doesn't take twenty minutes to trudge across is not bad. This one's particularly galling given that this is Beta 1 and the bonus to gameplay is not the addition of maps which are large, but maps with complex pathing, multiple-splitting lanes and so on. Demigod is not DotA.
The lack of a complicated, twitchy sub-game of item recipes which require you to remember more lore than the CNC Organic Chemistry reference is not bad. Demigod is not DotA.
The lack of obsessive micromanagement of your hero and focus on a broader understanding of the battle and positioning is not bad. If last-hitting and pixel-level control of your character is a necessity to play well, the game is not accessible. Demigod is not DotA.
Not taking two hours to play an average game is not bad. While I realize that not having a life is considered de rigeur for gamers historically, let me point out the games with the biggest sales for the last decade or so are the ones where dipping in and out amidst a busy lifestyle is doable. And thank Hades for that. Demigod is not DotA.

I am not a DotA player. I never have been. I will, thank the powers of Hell, never will be. If, in fact, the majority of beta players for Demigod are DotA players, then Stardock / GPG need to do some extensive outside-the-group testing when they get to the point of deciding on gameplay flow and refinement. Demigod is not DotA, nor should it be. It must be it's own thing with strong differentiation if it wants to make it in the marketplace. You might ask, "Why try to redesign a game and improve on it when theres already a wildly successful model that works beautifully and draws massive amounts of players...all in a 3MB custom map file for a game that came out in 2001." Partly because the number of players that are into DotA aren't enough to sustain a commercial game in today's market? Because ripping off gameplay entire from an extant game is not only cheap but insulting? Because -- and I know this might be hard to believe -- DotA isn't the end-all be-all of "AI zerg army" gaming?

I've followed a lot of GPG and Stardock's games over the years. I have faith that between them, they can create a game that breaks new ground, conceptually and technically. I've seen them do it. I have no doubt that they'll continue doing so in Demigod and the inevitable expansions thereof. I've already expressed that trust in the most powerful way possible: With my wallet.

I would hate to think that just because I'm not a DotA evangelist that my opinion isn't thought of as important or meaningful.

Things I'm happy to see in Demigod:

I can be powerful from the beginning. I'm a demigod, by Crom, and I can bloody well prove it! Out the gate I can blast my enemies with fire, put a bolt through their noggins, or stomp them flat by the tens. And it's only up from there!
It doesn't take ten minutes from starting the game to getting where things are interesting. I can walk out just a bit and start impressively laying waste!
I don't have to concentrate on hitting just-so on this zerg or that zerg. I can stomp my way to a good position, then trust the AI will Do The Right Thing(tm) while I focus on dropping the right skill at the right time for impact. I can strategize, not be a tactics monkey.
I don't have to know sixty+ characters, all their hard and soft counters, and an entire library of references on items to play the game. I can jump in, beat the crap out of things and actually work my way into gameplay without having to be a reference text.

This is Beta 1. If it's anything like the Sins Beta 1, things are in for a huge overhaul between now and release. (Though to be honest I'd like to see Demigod's beta cycle be made up of more, shorter betas. More fluid evolution with feedback seems to me more useful.) That established, I'd love to see gameplay move away from DotA'ish things rather than toward. It's a huge, explorable gamespace. Doing the same thing is not only boring, it's done. Time for new things.

Things I'd like to see in Demigod:

I'd like to see a couple of Generals soon. They're why I'm really interested in Demigod, truth be told. The fact that my preferred style of play (rear-guard / support / building) is promised alongside my friend's favoured style of play (action-RPG agressive) is one of the biggest reasons for me to buy the game. I can't be the only one.
A sample of one of the 5x5 maps. We've seen screenshots, but the engine seems to be really, terrifyingly stable given its release status. If we're really going to beat on it, clearly we'll need a bigger stick.
In line with the above, an active setting for increasing the flow of the zerg through the portals. I can't be the only one who wants to double the flow rate and wade right into a huge bloody mess of ugly.
Some kind of contracting bar that displays the time / threshold until your next wave of zerg comes through. I hate to be standing out front with my pants down and the last of my wave dies around me with no idea how long until the next bunch rolls through.
Some Generals. Wait, I said that.
The unification of your rear-base shopping mall into a couple of buildings. I like having to either die or walk back to gear up; that's fine. But as is buying things is a right PitA.
A bit of documentation on the zerglings and powers. Even with a general idea of what I want to do, I'm spending time mouse-waving to get effect ideas. Zerglings need a mouse-over tip which defines a short description of their role and some general stats. (Use the Fudge-esque Poor/Average/Fair/Good/Great/Superb instead of hard numbers for bonus points.)
Did I say more Generals?

Bug-wise, I don't think I've anything to report that hasn't been me-too'd into dead horse material. It's been disgustingly bug free for what passes for many companies' releases; that it's an early beta should make everyone sit up and take notice.

In short and in summary:

Demigod is not DotA. Don't ask for it to be. If you have the urge to do so, stop, consider, and ask yourself, "How can this be made less like DotA and more fun?" That's the kind of thinking that pioneers and improves.

Besides, if they feel the need to borrow from an older game, Majesty would be a good call. Just sayin', yo. (And, yes, I know it's due an updated release in short order.)

+7 Karma | 100 Replies

And I say amen to that!

sorry bout the double post there... i waited for about a min before i reposted. I never saw the first one show up

oh well, it was worth two "amen"s anyway

I am going to have to say I disagree with this post. I mean certaintly Demigod != DotA but that is obvious... I mean they are two seperate games. Now making changes to Demigod to simply make it LESS like DotA is fairly naive. DotA has many many good gameplay mechanics. DotA was not original in itself. If you walk down the alley of DotA history you will see it was a vastly different game in its early game. The DotA story itself is about constant iteration. Bad elements are removed and Good elements are added and refined. Demigod should take the DotA gameplay it obviously heavily borrows from and refine it furter. Don't simply copy DotA but don't make things different just to be different, take the good things from DotA and don't be ashamed because thats what DotA did from early versions with different developers.

You want to "strategize" and not be a "tactics monkey", yet at the same time you want the game to be simplistic and "just smash things durrr awesome explosions"? You don't see the contradiction there?

"I don't have to concentrate on hitting just-so on this zerg or that zerg. I can stomp my way to a good position, then trust the AI will Do The Right Thing(tm) while I focus on dropping the right skill at the right time for impact. I can strategize, not be a tactics monkey."

I don't have to know sixty+ characters, all their hard and soft counters, and an entire library of references on items to play the game. I can jump in, beat the crap out of things and actually work my way into gameplay without having to be a reference text.

You're right, "jumping in and beating the crap out of things" really makes for a deep strategy game experience.

Although Demigod is not dota, there are some things that dota did really well that Demigod should take onboard ex.

A non-heirarchial tottaly even item system (DotA wasn't tottaly even, but it was a whole load closer than the beta is currently)
Larger lanes and the ability to hide well before an attack
Recipe's are awsome
A larger bounty!

Also the 8 Demigod confirmation seems strange to me. Isn't it always nice when everyone is a diferent hero? and if there is going to be 5v5 then it would be nice to see 10 Demigods. I'm all for quality over quantity but 8 seems a bit scarce to me.

The fact that Demigod is'nt copying DotA is great, things like the generals are awsome ideas (although i have a suspicion that it will be hell to balance) but i think that Demigod needs to make sure that it veer away from DotA just for the sake of it, that every decision is made to make the best game, not just for the sake of not being DotA.

So, Squid wants DotA with the principles the other way around (by this I mean big map for DotA, small map for Demigod, as he wrote).

You came here to say that you don't like DotA. Great. And that's why Demigod can't have the good features in there? AND you haven't even played it?

I would say, in your style, that borrowing good features from good games is not bad. Demigod is not DotA.

DotA did NOT start out with 90+ heroes and a hundred-or-so items. After Demigod is released and after numerous patches the number will be far, far more than 8, will you be whining because of too much variety in gameplay (who the hell whines about variety in gameplay anyway? Isn't it a good thing?) then as well?

"I would hate to think that just because I'm not a DotA evangelist that my opinion isn't thought of as important or meaningful. "

So what? Right now your opinion isn't really good because you're bashing DotA. That makes your opinion more valid? Bashing it makes you look like a bitter ass, who's opinion isn't, indeed, neither important nor meaningful. So basically what you're saying is: "Make the game as shit as possible, at least it's not like DotA!"

Reaver said it right. It would be smarter for you to move away from the game now, if you hate DotA with such passion, because it's roots are very strongly in DotA-soil, fundamentally, and nothing will ever change that. If Demigod had a genre, it would be DotA/AoS.

I for one am glad that Demigod has taken inspiration from all the good stuff found in DotA, but if it were to be taken away for the sake of being different then, I would be severely dissappointed.

Demigod can have the good features of DotA.

But people have different opinions on which are the good features.

Some people, for example, think recipes are a good feature. I think they're absolutely god awful and the worst thing I've seen in just about any game I've played, out of hundreds and hundreds of games.

For me, i really need one thing that derive from DotA, CONSTANT UPDATES and long time development. DotA isn't as good as it is today from the start, they're making it this good for many years, i think 4 years already? maybe far more than that. Only wish i have is for Demigod to be constantly and actively updating things. DotA got new update every month, If Demigod can do it like that, i'm sure it'll pwn all other compettitive games.

What i am tried of is people saying that this game is boring and takes little to no skill. People this Beta 1 as frogboy this is not fun!!

You will see in the coming mounths that when we get more of the game IE flags and the RTS side and bigger mapps that this is a ground breaking game. It is not Sup Com it is not Dota it is not sins. And to that i say think god. Be happy that all of us are lucky anuff to be in this ground breaking beta and that GPG and Stardock care what we think. So play on players

"What i am tried of is people saying that this game is boring and takes little to no skill."

LOL. Anyone who says that must be mentally underdeveloped

Quoting innociv,

reply 8

Demigod can have the good features of DotA.
But people have different opinions on which are the good features.

Some people, for example, think recipes are a good feature. I think they're absolutely god awful and the worst thing I've seen in just about any game I've played, out of hundreds and hundreds of games.

LOL

The "worst thing" you've seen in any game ever out of hundreds and hundreds is "item recipes"? Boy you sure have some weird psychological hatred for "item recipes".

i like the idea of item recipes

don't get me wrong, i don't think they should be used.

They create a learning curve where suddenly you have to know tons of combinations in order to build the right thing.

i can't count the number of times i purchased the wrong item because i was thinking of a similar but different recipe.

Now that I've played Dota at least 50 or so times, I know a good deal of them. but definitely NOT all of them.

With this upgrade system you can't buy the wrong upgrade because it shows you the boosted stats right next to it. Plus it takes the amount of items in the shops and reduces them while still letting you create more final items then there currently are in the shops. And it lets you buy items earlier instead of saving up the entire game to buy an item. I'm all for this.

No, Recipes are pretty bad. For expierienced players they're ok, for high level they bring some depth.. but its the bane for new players. Alot new players i know and/or friends i tried to get to play Dota quitet after 2-3 Sessions because of the complexity of the Recipe System of Dota. I like it, because i play dota since a few years with around +1k games per Year (Y, im a freak )

The System innocev posted is far better go read it^^

So long,

Aspartem

quoting post

Demigod is not DotA. Don't ask for it to be. If you have the urge to do so, stop, consider, and ask yourself, "How can this be made less like DotA and more fun?" That's the kind of thinking that pioneers and improves.
[/quote]

There is one other important reason not to make a DotA clone. How many clones were more popular than original games compared to a number of clones released? If Demigod will be a DotA clone, a majority of DotA players will not play Demigod - they know the game, they have a community there etc. They're already happy with it. And new players will not play Demigod for exactly the same reasons why they don't play DotA - excessive learning curve, mandatory micro, games take too much time etc. - you said it in your post. If these deficiencies of DotA will not be corrected, the game will fail.

Quoting Jiav,

reply 5

This is bad, because obsessive micromanagement or macromanagement is totally essential to every RTS "if" it wants to be sucessful in the big world of the rts genre. Since Demigod has no base or unit building feature you will want OPTIONS to micro your hero. Last hitting, positioning and a general unterstanding of what the hell is going on around you are also key elementals within the genre. Due the lack of base building the game already lacks a significant elemental which will already make it less attractive for some audience, especially with a "right now" boring hero handling. Demingod himself is very easy accessible for everyone who did play a rts game before.

Yeah, and then came Wii, World of Warcraft, casual games etc. and proven that a way to success is to make a game more accessible to everyone. Before that, everyone also thought that if you don't make a hardcore game/gaming console, you'll fail. Sorry, but i played RTS since Nether Earth (ZX Spectrum, 1987) and i don't think obsessive micromanagement is essential for RTS. Strategies are about making the right decisions, not about mindless clicking.

Quoting Jiav,

reply 5

While Demigod may not be dota, a bad copy is always better than something god awful selfmade.

That single sentence proves your complete lack of understanding of a game industry. Bad copies ALWAYS failed miserably in release. Heck, even good copies failed most of the time (failed compared to an original, maybe raitings were ok but sales were awful). If the only thing you can make is a bad copy, you'll be much better not doing it at all - it will save you a lot of time and money.

[quote who="Jiav" reply="5" id="1863681"]So if you make a game which is related to the key idea of an AoS like DotA, you should consider to atleast "copy" some of the criteria which makes dota the game it is. Prolly the easiest way to attract players, new and old ones.

No. Old players are already happy with DotA, so they'll not play something exactly like DotA with minor differencies (what's the point to learn how to play new 70 heroes or something like that? they're happy with the old ones) but they'll play something original (that is, different gameplay).

Now, new players. Why do new players don't play DotA? Answer that question and make Demigod LESS DotA in regard to that. That's the right way to attract new players.

Quoting abix85,

reply 14

quoting post
You might ask, "Why try to redesign a game and improve on it when theres already a wildly successful model that works beautifully and draws massive amounts of players...all in a 3MB custom map file for a game that came out in 2001." Partly because the number of players that are into DotA aren't enough to sustain a commercial game in today's market?

So, youre saying that there arent enough DotA players to support a commercial game? I wonder why that is. Could it be because since DotA is a free game, theres never been any marketing for DotA, or any hype for DotA, and no shelf space in stores so that the casual person could pick it up and buy it? In fact, the only way anybody could ever learn about DotA was by word-of-mouth or by happening to own Warcraft 3 and seeing the tons of custom games up on Battle.net. And yet, despite all this, every new version of DotA still gets hundreds of thousands of downloads within the first few days of being released.

Now, imagine that same game model but made by a commerical company, with marketing, hype, a polished release, a good dev team, and a spot on store shelves. That would be a sight to see and a hell of a commercial success.

The fact that somebody hasnt exploited the success of DotA by now is just shocking. I say its about time. Lets do this.

Good point. Now ask yourself, if it's that good then why Blizzard didn't do a standalone DotA game? Maybe you think you're smarter than Blizzard? If you don't think you're smarter than Blizzard, tell me please why didn't they do it if it's so good? Maybe the reason is that it isn't as good as you think and that's why they don't do a standalone DotA clone? If Blizzard thinks it doesn't worth it, why Stardock should do it? Obviously, Blizzard with all their experience can make a better DotA clone than Stardock, so Stardock has even less reasons to do it than Blizzard. So, the right way is not to make a DotA clone, the right way is to make Demigod. Right?

Quoting Aspartem,

reply 14

Recipes aren't inherently bad. Recipes don't come in the night and molest your grandmother although that's what you'd think from some of the hyperbole around here "OMG recipez Suxx dota suxx".

But either way, the game needs to have some depth (whether by recipes or whatever). Demigod is not going to be the next World of Warcraft, and even WoW has a lot of depth if you want it (new players get their hands held, but calculating your 2400+ arena strategy or trying to server first a new raid boss is so far beyond them).

We already saw what happened with oversimplification in Space Siege. It was on oversimplification of an already simplified game (Dungeon Siege), did that work out well and get the casual masses to play?

First, WoW brings to 99% of the players absolutley no depth. Yes arena is fun, and i like it to watch - since im not into WoW anymore. And the high end raiders also got my respect for inventing all the nice tactics to slay all the ugly beasts BUT these are only 1-5 per Realmpool which are that far. And only a few percent are around 2.4k in Arena. Its nice for them.. but the others can only farm stupid dailys .. farm some more for reputation and farm some more honor.. farmfarmfarmgrindgrindgrind.. like every other MMORPG out there.

I never said Dota suxx, sicne im playing around 1000 games per year and since 3-4 years. And i know all friggin recepies inside out. But whenever i tried to introduce one of my friends into dota, they simply cursed the stupid recipe system, and that is to complicated. For exp. one of my best friends is a real good Magic:The gathering player and Yu-Gi-Oh swiss-champ - so he got a good combination skill etc. but heck the recipe were a pain for him. For at least the first 20-30 game it was confusing for him.

Many things of Dota are great, and probably a lot things we will recognize in retail. But also alot in dota history was donkeyballz, and we dont want a clone thats all. This game was only inspired by Dota -> now it goes its own way.

So long, Aspartem

Brad Wardell: "Okay, good. Well then as good as DotA is, there's not enough to it to sustain a stand-alone game in our opinion. There has to be more to it."

Alright... no more arguing? please?

Quoting ToxDrawace,

reply 19

Brad Wardell: "Okay, good. Well then as good as DotA is, there's not enough to it to sustain a stand-alone game in our opinion. There has to be more to it."

Alright... no more arguing? please?

A game that is like dota in gameplay but has more maps, a single player story mode and more hero customization sounds like a win to me.

indeed! btw, if you haven't read the interview yet, check it out! there are 2 journal entries with the links.

Quoting abix85,

reply 14

First, its terrible form to bash the game mechanics of DotA when you say, "I am not now nor have I ever been a DotA player"

So you dont play it, but you feel qualified to talk about it? Not sure I get that.

Too many terrible points to do a point-counterpoint for each one, but the biggest one is this:

quoting post
You might ask, "Why try to redesign a game and improve on it when theres already a wildly successful model that works beautifully and draws massive amounts of players...all in a 3MB custom map file for a game that came out in 2001." Partly because the number of players that are into DotA aren't enough to sustain a commercial game in today's market?

So, youre saying that there arent enough DotA players to support a commercial game? I wonder why that is. Could it be because since DotA is a free game, theres never been any marketing for DotA, or any hype for DotA, and no shelf space in stores so that the casual person could pick it up and buy it? In fact, the only way anybody could ever learn about DotA was by word-of-mouth or by happening to own Warcraft 3 and seeing the tons of custom games up on Battle.net. And yet, despite all this, every new version of DotA still gets hundreds of thousands of downloads within the first few days of being released.

Now, imagine that same game model but made by a commerical company, with marketing, hype, a polished release, a good dev team, and a spot on store shelves. That would be a sight to see and a hell of a commercial success.

The fact that somebody hasnt exploited the success of DotA by now is just shocking. I say its about time. Lets do this.

QFT

TLDR

Quoting jsj0486,

reply 23

TLDR

Why are you even posting then? Nobody cares that you were too lazy to read this thread. What possible reason could make you think "Oh I'll tell him that I didn't read his post because it was too long, even after it's been discussed for 3 pages! This post will be helpful and informative! Derr derr!"

I kept scratching my head as to what the hell you where talking about. Dota?

For anyone else who doesn't, here is some help.

The Forums Are Now Closed!

The content will remain as a historical reference, thank you.

The Heretical Thought: Demigod is Not DotA

Wherein I manage to be cast out from On High