The Heretical Thought: Demigod is Not DotA

Wherein I manage to be cast out from On High

By SquidLord on September 5, 2008 5:11:52 AM from

I'm going to give voice to the heretical words which have frequently been pressing in my mind of late, and I'm certain they'll lead to my opinion being considered apostate and the bulk of those who've been loudest and most long-winded on this forum looking to lash me to old pines and burn me alive.

And those words are these:

I have no interest in Demigod being made into a prettier DotA. More importantly (from my perspective), I am not now nor have I ever been a DotA player. I've never liked the obsession with go-faster, with pointless elaboration for no real gain in gameplay, with proving their hardcoreness by berating others for not being go-faster enough themselves, with some perverse idea that if a RTS game is anything other than DotA that it's inherently inferior.

Demigods which start out significantly stronger than the zerg are not bad. I realize that starting out as barely more powerful than a little zergling is state-of-the-art in DotA. Demigod is not DotA.
Games which run for shorter or longer times than what you're used to in DotA are not bad. Demigod is not DotA.
A small map size that doesn't take twenty minutes to trudge across is not bad. This one's particularly galling given that this is Beta 1 and the bonus to gameplay is not the addition of maps which are large, but maps with complex pathing, multiple-splitting lanes and so on. Demigod is not DotA.
The lack of a complicated, twitchy sub-game of item recipes which require you to remember more lore than the CNC Organic Chemistry reference is not bad. Demigod is not DotA.
The lack of obsessive micromanagement of your hero and focus on a broader understanding of the battle and positioning is not bad. If last-hitting and pixel-level control of your character is a necessity to play well, the game is not accessible. Demigod is not DotA.
Not taking two hours to play an average game is not bad. While I realize that not having a life is considered de rigeur for gamers historically, let me point out the games with the biggest sales for the last decade or so are the ones where dipping in and out amidst a busy lifestyle is doable. And thank Hades for that. Demigod is not DotA.

I am not a DotA player. I never have been. I will, thank the powers of Hell, never will be. If, in fact, the majority of beta players for Demigod are DotA players, then Stardock / GPG need to do some extensive outside-the-group testing when they get to the point of deciding on gameplay flow and refinement. Demigod is not DotA, nor should it be. It must be it's own thing with strong differentiation if it wants to make it in the marketplace. You might ask, "Why try to redesign a game and improve on it when theres already a wildly successful model that works beautifully and draws massive amounts of players...all in a 3MB custom map file for a game that came out in 2001." Partly because the number of players that are into DotA aren't enough to sustain a commercial game in today's market? Because ripping off gameplay entire from an extant game is not only cheap but insulting? Because -- and I know this might be hard to believe -- DotA isn't the end-all be-all of "AI zerg army" gaming?

I've followed a lot of GPG and Stardock's games over the years. I have faith that between them, they can create a game that breaks new ground, conceptually and technically. I've seen them do it. I have no doubt that they'll continue doing so in Demigod and the inevitable expansions thereof. I've already expressed that trust in the most powerful way possible: With my wallet.

I would hate to think that just because I'm not a DotA evangelist that my opinion isn't thought of as important or meaningful.

Things I'm happy to see in Demigod:

I can be powerful from the beginning. I'm a demigod, by Crom, and I can bloody well prove it! Out the gate I can blast my enemies with fire, put a bolt through their noggins, or stomp them flat by the tens. And it's only up from there!
It doesn't take ten minutes from starting the game to getting where things are interesting. I can walk out just a bit and start impressively laying waste!
I don't have to concentrate on hitting just-so on this zerg or that zerg. I can stomp my way to a good position, then trust the AI will Do The Right Thing(tm) while I focus on dropping the right skill at the right time for impact. I can strategize, not be a tactics monkey.
I don't have to know sixty+ characters, all their hard and soft counters, and an entire library of references on items to play the game. I can jump in, beat the crap out of things and actually work my way into gameplay without having to be a reference text.

This is Beta 1. If it's anything like the Sins Beta 1, things are in for a huge overhaul between now and release. (Though to be honest I'd like to see Demigod's beta cycle be made up of more, shorter betas. More fluid evolution with feedback seems to me more useful.) That established, I'd love to see gameplay move away from DotA'ish things rather than toward. It's a huge, explorable gamespace. Doing the same thing is not only boring, it's done. Time for new things.

Things I'd like to see in Demigod:

I'd like to see a couple of Generals soon. They're why I'm really interested in Demigod, truth be told. The fact that my preferred style of play (rear-guard / support / building) is promised alongside my friend's favoured style of play (action-RPG agressive) is one of the biggest reasons for me to buy the game. I can't be the only one.
A sample of one of the 5x5 maps. We've seen screenshots, but the engine seems to be really, terrifyingly stable given its release status. If we're really going to beat on it, clearly we'll need a bigger stick.
In line with the above, an active setting for increasing the flow of the zerg through the portals. I can't be the only one who wants to double the flow rate and wade right into a huge bloody mess of ugly.
Some kind of contracting bar that displays the time / threshold until your next wave of zerg comes through. I hate to be standing out front with my pants down and the last of my wave dies around me with no idea how long until the next bunch rolls through.
Some Generals. Wait, I said that.
The unification of your rear-base shopping mall into a couple of buildings. I like having to either die or walk back to gear up; that's fine. But as is buying things is a right PitA.
A bit of documentation on the zerglings and powers. Even with a general idea of what I want to do, I'm spending time mouse-waving to get effect ideas. Zerglings need a mouse-over tip which defines a short description of their role and some general stats. (Use the Fudge-esque Poor/Average/Fair/Good/Great/Superb instead of hard numbers for bonus points.)
Did I say more Generals?

Bug-wise, I don't think I've anything to report that hasn't been me-too'd into dead horse material. It's been disgustingly bug free for what passes for many companies' releases; that it's an early beta should make everyone sit up and take notice.

In short and in summary:

Demigod is not DotA. Don't ask for it to be. If you have the urge to do so, stop, consider, and ask yourself, "How can this be made less like DotA and more fun?" That's the kind of thinking that pioneers and improves.

Besides, if they feel the need to borrow from an older game, Majesty would be a good call. Just sayin', yo. (And, yes, I know it's due an updated release in short order.)

+7 Karma | 100 Replies

Things shouldn't be changed to be not like DotA just for the sake of being different than DotA. Many of the things in dota are in there for a reason. Why should it be arbitrarily different than DotA? Should fun be sacrificed just to make it different? As an example, look at WoW. It was basically an EQ2 clone, except done right, and now it's a runaway hit.

You seem to hate DotA, and say it shouldn't be like DotA because that's not the kind of game you want. But that's just the thing! Not everyone wants the same kind of game as you do. I want it to be like DotA where it matters: Balanced, fun gameplay. And DotA has had a lot of time to refine the gameplay. Why try to rewrite a known formula? This will be only the second game of its kind. Trying to completely rewrite what kind of game it is will only result in a weak, unfinished game (See: SupCom).

Some counters to your main points:

-There's a reason heroes in DotA don't start out much stronger than the creeps: the creeps actually pose a threat, and aren't just food. If you go alone against an army, you shouldn't come out winning. Also, you'll get the satisfaction of power progression after you become powerful enough to destroy armies. Additionally, stronger creeps means it's actually possible to do a push. Right now, a single demigod can stop a huge army of creeps with a single spell. This makes pushing somewhat pointless.

-Games that run shorter or longer than DotA games are not necissarily bad, but the game length shouldn't be changed just to be different. Dota games rarely last longer than an hour, and even fewer games past that length. Many games are decided by half hour games, but longer games can truly become epic, and almost always ending before 1.5 hours.

-There are a few reasons for the item recipe system. One, you aren't just selling old items to get "upgrades", but actually upgrading and working towards a specific high-tiered item. Also, you don't spend all game saving up for a single item, but can get the parts and start seeing some benefit sooner. I like how demigod's items aren't just "+x stats" but actuall have effects (like dota). Whether they can get a good item system in without recipes remains to be seen.

-A broad understanding of the battles flow is also very essential in DotA. It's not just micromanaging a hero to kill another hero in 1v1 combat. You have to keep track of where the other enemy heroes are to avoid ganks, and keep track of which lanes are being pushed as well. You have to communicate with your teammates and know when to push and when to back out. It takes less micromanaging than regular RTS's IMO, and more smart management.

Some things with which I agree with you:

-I also don't really like the starting 10 minutes before most action starts that is in DotA. It serves a purpose, but it would be nice to see it removed in Demigod if possible.

-I also thing last hitting and denying should be mostly removed. I'm not so sure about last hitting though, but definitely denying your own creeps.

There are a lot of changes in Demigod that are different from DotA. Generals create an entire new subset of gameplay. A new game engine allows more flexibility for spells. A single Assassin Demigod has a lot more abilities than DotA heroes do. Strategic Zoom adds a new way of seeing the battlefield. There's probably more things we have yet to see, as well.

On a final note, I'm not saying Demigod should copy DotA verbatim. I'm just saying things shouldn't be changed arbitrarily, but for a reason. There should be a reason to make a new item system, a reason to change the basic gameplay, a reason, other than just being different, to having weaker creeps. Difference does not automatically make it better.

@ MetDragon

I think the OP was trying to say we shouldn't change demigod to be MORE like DotA. There are a lot of posts out right now that want things from DotA to be implemented in Demigod simply because Demigod is similar to DotA. I think its obvious that some DotA features will be in Demigod no matter what. It's the nature of games of the same genre. Standards are created when a popular/good game is created. I don't remember when hotkeying armies with ctrl+# came around but I can't remember ever seeing any recent RTS without it (and Demigod doesn't count, this is not your average RTS)

I'd much rather have item upgrade than recipies. Get a low level version of the item and progressively improve it. You don't have to study what items you need to get it, you just get the item you want and make it better over time. I study for calculus, not for computer games. There are some things that would make the game more fun, some things that would make it less fun, and some that would just make it different. I'm all for the fun bit, don't really like the less fun bit and couldn't care less about the different bit. We shouldn't be arguing to make something more similar just to make it more similar. If there's a good case that it'll be more fun than before, then absolutely. Just remember that DotA doesn't have a monopoly on all fun gameplay and that being different isn't necessarily for the worse. If you do, I swear I'll remember that similar isn't necessarily for the worse.

It's like making better "Car" than the present car. Which is also a "Car". You still need wheels and such, there's a reason why wheels are there, and there's a reason why we're still making a "Car". That's the same for Demigod-DotA relationship.

Quoting Zeneroth,

reply 4

Exactly. However there's also a reason why the tape deck isn't there and the CD player is. Same for why we added the windshield and took out the magnetos.

Quoting xthetenth,

reply 20

DotA doesn't have a monopoly on fun gameplay in this subgenre, and there should be variety. Different styles for different people.

The thing that most of you are missing is that it is virtually impossible to create a game that manages to stay fresh and interesting for years. I have only come across a single game in my entire life that held my interest over multiple years, DOTA. DOTA hit upon something special, and there's no reason Demigod shouldn't try to copy that. The more they abandon DOTA-like features just for the sake of being different, the greater the risk that the end-product is going to be just another game, one that people play and maybe have fun with for a couple weeks or months, but that is quickly forgotten afterwards.

I personally think that this is exactly what's going to happen. It's just so rare that a game comes out that can actually stand the test of time for a large number of people. I'm hoping to be proved wrong, but the odds are not in Stardock's favor here. (And I think the best chance they have of proving me wrong is to stay as close to DOTA as possible, given that DOTA is a tried and true formula for creating such a long-lasting game.)

They should make demigod like Counter-strike, its stood the test of time longer

Demigod just cant make an replica of Dota with some different models on it then just tinker a little bit with the mechanics. Valve tried that with Source. Huge numbers rejected CS:Source, of course there were people that went along to play the game just because it looked a little better. I believe that Dota layed down the ground work for Demigod now they just have to expand upon the ideas, make the game more in-depth. Why would people switch from a game they already own to play one with just better graphics? People are argueing over they need to be more different or more of the same. Well honestly it needs both.

id say make it like DotA, I agree with nothing the OP says about how DotA is bad, because he bashed a game he has never played. IF thats shallow of me **** off, imo he has no right, NO right to say anything about that game. if he plays a few gmes and understand how things work, WITH an objective attitude, then says something, I will be happy to listen, untill then nothing. (most likely, he wont play at all, and still run around like a headless chicken denouncing DotA)

In terms of the Demigod is/isnt DotA, implement the good things that were in DotA into Demigod, I believe last hitting and denying are something this falls into, because your denying Exp to the enemy, furthering your goal to win. (And this is one example)

I have played DotA for around 3-4 years, so I understand that most his points are off, and incorrect.

I dont want Demigod to BE DotA, I want it similar, with the good in the game, the bad can go, idk for it. an example of bad are the recipes, one or two is good (for like end game uber WTFPWN items) but not for core items.

and lets not call then 'zerglings' ya these creeps (or waves, OR call-them-by-their-actual-name guys) are weak, but its hard just using Demigod/wc3/gaming/DotA language, we dont need another game in on this. Or hell, lets call them by whats in the game itself folder: Reinforcements. We can also call them simply 'your forces'...

I am a big fan of DOTA so what you'll hear from me can be a little biased but I'll try to prove my points other than reasoning on how popular DOTA has been.

I disagree with many of your opinions:

1) Even though they are considered demigods, they should start much weaker than the creeps. This is a considered an Action RPG and every RPG starts your hero as weak and puny. The fun here is to see your hero grow out of the rank of peon to the status of a DemiGod. I think there is much more satisfaction in seeing and feeling your hero grow in such a manner.

2) I do think this initial Waterfall map is too small, even for a 3vs3 map. There is no strategy in ganking as the escape route is very short. DOTA has this system completely right. The further you're in enemy territory, the more you SHOULD be in danger because the distance to travel to safe ground is much longer. That is why actions like teleporting and blinking are very useful and critical skills to have. You have to weigh your risks and rewards in this case. The rewards when pushing in enemy territory is to gain more xp and gold but the risk is more of a threat to you.

3) You mentioned not having to understand the different heroes in order to play a successful game. You specifically referred to many heroes that DOTA offered. Yes, I can understand how intimidating this is to new players but every game has an initial learning curve. It only takes time and effort to get beyond this curve and I can hope that your experience will enrich itself when you pull through. DOTA is like a game of chess. You have to understand what all the different heroes can do so you know how to counter. Since it was built on the Warcraft engine, it successfully uses the tried and true system of rock, paper and scissors. Know how to counter your opponent and you will win. You will be very proud of yourself when you successfully counter everything your opponent threw at you. This also helps with point 1 where as the hero grows, you're training your hero on how to counter your opposition through item selection and skill selection.

Things that do I agree with you:

1) Personally I like to play only an hour per game. Any longer then I'll get tired and bored unless if the game is fun and challenging. It is easy to fix this length by offering the heroes more xp and gold as they kill. This could be an option offered to the game host.

2) Last hitting for gold and denying for xp simply does not make sense. I personally think this is flawed system used by DOTA as it depends on the hero animation and initial stats. Some heroes have slow attack animation and low starting damage which makes it very hard to deny and last hit. I'm fine if this whole system is left out.

3) You didn't mention this, but the player's attitude can be very negative and hostile for new initiatives. I hate this aspect of DOTA and other "competitive" games. People forget their roots and that's just plain crappy. A personal record system should help differentiate games for experienced and non-experienced players. This should also help with leavers as they always ruin the game for others.

Demigod is not DOTA, but they've made it clear that it's based on DOTA. By doing this, they have tapped into the DOTA community for their customer base which is a very large international community. It sounds like you dislike DOTA but don't be surprise if they don't stray too far away from DOTA's mechanics. There's a reason why such a large community of players have enjoyed DOTA for all these years.

Quoting Zeneroth,

reply 4

Good analogy. Yeah.

And yes Demigod shouldn't be made arbitrarily different from DotA to be different from DotA, but theres tons of things in that game which people would say are the good things, while others would say their bad. (IE I despise the recipe combinations but some people thing but some silly silly people think Demigod needs 'em.)

Quoting Heavenfall,

reply 1

I agree with this, and this is all for the better.
Demigod should be DotA inspired, but NOT make the same mistakes.

yea, except here's the problem:

DotA didn't make many mistakes. It is a tried and true game / scenario / mod that is both fun as well as competitive. GPG is far more likely to make lots of mistakes by moving away from DotA style mechanics and gameplay rather than attempting to emulate it.

The fact is, many (if not most) of the things the OP mentioned as things they don't want to be in Demigod are actually vital aspects of DotA - they are a big part of why DotA is competitive and popular.

Stop disagreeing with people just because they say Demigod should be more like DotA. Most of the time, they are absolutely right.

Bring in lots and lots of item recipes, because I like them and to spite innociv who keeps bringing up the issue

Eeeeeeeeeeeewwwww.... nasty little suckers. There is no reason that folly has to be duplicated when the effect could be achieved in a much better way that's less likely to make noobs run away in shame and allows more customization.

Metdragon is so right. Also is the Op.

Demigod is not Dota. But dont change things for the sake of being the same or for being diffrent. Demigod shall go its own way. BUT, Dota is popular game for some good reasons.

I also refere and compare demigod alot to dota. Why? Because its the only game which is similar out there. Demigod does not have to do ALL the same mistakes Dota did. And some Dotaplayers like me, want to participate at the creation of this game, just to make it hell of blast when its finished. But in its own way.

Even if it feels totally diffrent and got other rules / metagame / mechanics. Diffrent doesnt mean bad. Dota is Tactic, Demigod is Strategy - and nothing is wrong with that. But if it want to be a Competitive Game, it has to follow one rule: Everything that is important, has to be controlled by the player. And you have to get better through practice. Else Newbies can bash Pros just because of Mr.Randoms sake.

And Lasthitting, Denies, Wardwars, Itemcounters, Positioning, Lanecontrol etc. are vital parts of Dota. Now, Demigod has to find its own parts, maybe some that Dota uses too. And nothing is wrong with that either. I mean.. just because Quake got a Rocketlauncher doesn't mean all other Shooters cant have friggin Rocketlaunchers.

Recepies are not needed, if the standart Items are well balanced/priced etc.

@ OP

You wont be satisfied with Demigod then. If you dont want to know diffrent builds + soft/hardcounters etc. Demigod is also nothing for you. Dont you think the Demigod wont have hard/soft counters? Diffrent play styles etc. etc. And here, its even harder to know. Because you cant see the Items the opponent holds/wears. Also, if you want to play tournaments or leagues you'll have to know the diffrent builds + how to recognize them.

Demigod is just more "epic" then dota, but somethings will never change. If you want to play on a high lvl, you'll have to practice and work for it. High Level Gaming isn't just fun anymore, its more of a Job - because you can earn a nice amount of money with it. Soccer is also fun.. but to be a pro is something diffrent.

Recepies are not needed, if the standart Items are well balanced/priced etc.

I think that the idea of upgrading the items along a tree has a lot of promise, because it can be applied to any item and works more organically. It would also let you get a good selection and progression quickly and easily.

While I'm in favour of recipes making a return, I would also totally accept another system which offers customisation and does it as well as the recipe system. Knowing which items/upgrades to go for depending on the situation of a battle gives a totally different element to the game, and it's not a case of just 'spend the most amount of gold to get the best item'.

Whatever the customisation method, you should have multiple viable options to aim for - there should be no 'be all and end all' item, but many different ones which offer something individual to them. Examples from DotA would be Guinsoo's Scythe of Vise (gives an active Hex), Lothar's Edge (gives an active Windwalk) and Aghanim's Scepter (improves your hero's ultimate). Obviously you still want items that are purely stat-based but mixing them up with others that offer something different makes things much more interesting.

I understand that the recipie system can be fun and rewarding after you memorize them, but upgrades have a much lower entry requirement to having fun, and that's why I prefer that system.

Check out GPG forums for TA vs. Supcom comparisons, and FA vs. TA.

This is the same stuff..

Yep, that's what's always been discussed. How close is it going to be to this thing which provides the best comparison? It's natural to want to compare, it lets you make points more easily, but the question of how accurate the comparison is keeps coming up.

Quoting innociv,

reply 18

Check out GPG forums for TA vs. Supcom comparisons, and FA vs. TA.

This is the same stuff..

At least TA and FA were made by some of the same people. OTOH, these comparisons between demigod and dota have little merit.

to all you people out there who are discussing and wanting demigod to be like dota, or just have some of its feature etc. have some respect for the developers and frogboy. He has said specifially he does NOT want this to be like dota and wants it to be a DIFFERENT game (only same genre), yet you guys keep pushing for it...

Quoting DalzK,

reply 21

yep, cuz we have a say, and having a few things like dota (or from it) doesnt mean its dota in anyway, it just means theres a part, and that part can chnge to something not dota, making it again, not dota

and if you want this game to not be like dota, take the creep spawns, lanes, towers, and assassins, they are too much like dota... Dota is only one game thats out (that is know of, and played often) so basically, if you try to make a game that has lanes, and creep spawns, and single controllable units, then its gonna be like DotA, so, this game is like DotA on a fundamental level... so the people that say "dont make it like DotA" technically lose the argument, but thats not the point, the point is that, this game is like DotA no matter what, you'd have to change the fundamentals to make it not DotA, thank you and have a good day...

It is true that Demigod is not DotA. It is also true that DotA is a perfectly reasonable source of ideas for the development of Demigod. It is also true that some of the mechanics/features of DotA are bad (or at the very least, less than ideal).

It is reasonable that people suggest ideas for Demigod based on their experiences with DotA, but DotA is far from perfect (I would even argue it was not the best game in the AoS genre, although in doing so I would probably begin a war I don't care enough to fight) and I would like to see Demigods improve on the formula. Many of the popular suggestions from DotA related to experience denial through friendly fire, item recipes, and number of Demigods will mostly only serve to create a barrier for new players; none of them are necessary for an excellent game but all of them encourage a wider-than-necessary gap between the best and the rest. I'm not saying that Demigods needs to sacrifice depth in order to cater to new players, but it does not have to replicate the mechanics that make DotA extremely inaccessible to newcomers.

Does it matter if its like dota or not? Does it have to have certain things from dota to be a good competitive game? Would it be a complete failure if they used ideas from dota and expanded upon them? The beta has been out 3-4 days now and people are still argueing over petty things.(We are not even at the beta stage were they make any changes) Any Suggestion should only spawn creative thinking on how to improve this game.

@ Aspartem

Herein lies the problem.....I think. Nowhere (that I've seen anyway) was/is Demigod being advertised as a "pro" game, useful only to pro-gamers. It is being marketed (so far anyway) as any other game out there.....to the masses. I am one of those masses and I'm by no means capable of or interested in "working" for my fun.

If the "pro" crowd insist on having Demigod turned into a "better-looking DoTA" then I will be asking for a refund. I purchased/supported Demigod, a game inspired by DoTA not DoTA......let's hope it stays that way.

The following (a quotation from Draginol/Frogboy's post titled "Demigod, DotA") is what I paid for and what I'm looking forward to, nothing more nothing less....

So it's definitely fair to say that DotA served as inspiration for Demigod. But Demigod will ultimately be somewhat different in play style. Right now, myself, Chris Taylor, and Mike Marr are putting our combined design experiences together in trying to create a unique, innovative, and compelling strategy game experience.

the Monk

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The Heretical Thought: Demigod is Not DotA

Wherein I manage to be cast out from On High