“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” – B. Franklin

By DrJBHL on February 19, 2016 6:20:52 AM from

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DrJBHL

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Tim Cook, is saying “No!”, in thunder to the DoJ.

But…”What if there’s info in there that would help catch terrorists?” That “What if” that makes us decide for ourselves the answer to Ben Franklin’s statement. Tim Cook said “No.” to the Justice Department’s Order to assist the FBI extract data from the San Bernadino terrorist’s phone. Wanna know something? He was right to do so.

Why? Well, for one thing, does it occur to anyone that the FBI has the terrorist’s fingerprint? So, why can’t they unlock the phone? Does it occur to anyone the government has super Cray computers which could have unlocked that phone? Why do they want the backdoor which they’ve wanted for a year at least? Why are they saying this is a “once only” when it clearly is not?

The FBI says it would be a “one time”, and that your device’s security wouldn’t be compromised. Security experts disagree: THEY say it will. Guess who I believe? Why should anyone believe that “one time” nonsense? The NSA collected your data illegally for years. Now? Congress has made it legal. Trust them to take your rights without a fight.

From the moment the FBI was created, J. Edgar Hoover collected dirt on everyone and used it to blackmail Presidents and Congresses and Courts. You think anything has changed? They’ve only gotten better at it, and justifying it because they know they’re dealing with sheep (sorry, Jim). The government has violated your rights with impunity, and poo-poo it, and they’ve done it for years…and will continue to do so.

So, if they can unlock the phone (does anyone really believe they can’t?), why ask a Court for an order? Because they want it “legally” (who doesn’t love a farce?), and more than ANYTHING, they want a PRECEDENT. That is what they MUST NOT obtain. The Bill of Rights stands as an integrated whole. The First, Second and Fifth Amendments most definitely depend upon the Fourth Amendment, and “What if” is Not sufficient reason to violate anyone’s privacy, just as “We want to know” isn’t, either.

The government knows it cannot justify the iPhone search with proof there actually is data there which is critical to the security of America. They are acting out of “What if?”. Well, that’s called a “fishing expedition”. It is inadequate reason for a Federal Judge to grant a search warrant. The Court Order was a serious breach of every citizen’s right to privacy and unreasonable search and seizure. Judges guard the Fourth Amendment jealously. They’d better, because the FBI would be looking at their phones with any imaginary “what if” they could dream up. Not just the FBI: Every local Police Dep’t. could “justify” such a search in a similar manner. Where is the boundary?

“We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.” – B. Franklin. Well, The EFF and ACLU, Google, Twitter and Facebook are standing with Apple on this. Shaping up to be an epic fight. I hope “We the People” win. “Backdoors” weaken security. They do not strengthen it. If a backdoor exists, ANYONE can exploit it, and will. The CIA has been trying to break into iPhones for years without success. You can bet the FSB and others have, as well.

So, Tim Cook is vowing to fight the DoJ’s Magistrate’s Order all the way to the Supreme Court. So would I: At best? There’ll be a tie, and no way to resolve it. Fitting in a karmic way.

Source:

http://www.engadget.com/2016/02/18/fbi-apple-iphone-explainer/

Quoting Daiwa,

reply 25

Scenario 1: Favoring sustaining individual rights has consequences.

Scenario 2: Favoring compromising individual rights in the name of safety* has consequences.

This is not a perfect world, so every choice we make will have good consequences and bad consequences. What we must do is try to chose the one that is the least bad (or does the most good) *in the long run*.

It's not easy because we tend to see just the immediate benefit - but it's the long term potential consequences we MUST try to 'guess' before making a choice.

Even then sometimes we make mistakes. So something else that is essential is the ability to stop and re-evaluate. Look back, re-think, and not be afraid to admit you have made a mistake - and then act on that realization.

One of the big problems with society - and why it is so dangerous to establish precedents/new laws before REALLY thinking them through - is that society really has a lot of inertia... it does not stop to re-evaluate. Once the cat is out of the bag, it stays out of the bag, the course has been set and it's full speed ahead (and damn the torpedoes).

Getting whatever is inside this guy's phone has a short term benefit (which is to find out if the criminal had other accomplices, and, if so, who they were). That is a good thing in itself (see, the 'smaller picture' I mentioned above?). But doing this will have long term consequences on the privacy and liberties of each and every individual, not just terrorists. If you fail to see the bigger picture, you have once again let yourself be deceived by evil.

I'm putting these things as evil vs. good and right vs. wrong because truthfully this is the way I see them, and I don't see what is happening here as something isolated from what is happening in other areas.

Worse, the people trying to force this issue (the FBI, DOJ, etc...) are precisely the ones that swore to defend the US constitution and the bill of rights. And I'm sorry because I know most of you are not going to like to hear this, but the land of the free is also the land responsible for abominations such as the TSA, the invasion of Irak with that WMD lie (I don't think anyone still buys that WMD story now, right?), etc... So what the hell is happening?

Look, I remember when something as innocuous as an application 'phoning home' to report useful statistical data or activate itself *with full disclosure* would cause a bloody riot. These days you have the OS itself admittedly and actively collecting a ton of data (with no way of knowing exactly what data is being sent because it is encrypted, and worse, with no way to turn data collection off) and people... people just shudder and use that OS version anyway.

And there you go. It's still the same sh*t, you just got used to the smell.

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Precisely, Jorge.

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Interesting twist on the story.

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An even twistier twist.

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9/11 could have been stopped by any number of things. Bugging everyone's calls, secretly monitoring everyone in their homes, strip searching people before they get on flights, the list is unimaginably long, basically only limited by one's imagination.

I may hold Apple with the same disdain I'd have viewing a pile of dog shit on my lawn, but the government can still go fuck itself. They have no right to demand private individuals destroy their property for them. Assuming the likely, that this is entirely about their bottom line and they don't give a red rats ass about our privacy, that's enough for me. If Apple must compromise privacy and damage the value of their products for my security, then there is no rational limit on what kind of property destruction can be justified in the name of preventing a terrorist attack. Buy a gun, fuck the FBI.

There are a myriad of ways people get the shaft in every day activities, because some asshole decided we weren't safe enough and needed to be restricted for our own protection, instead of turning the middle east into a sheet of glass and solving the actual problem of a culture rooted in nazi fascism and a religion founded by a pedophile teaching murder and enslavement of anyone that wont join it.

Life isn't safe, people die all the time, nearly everyone that does either goes by natural causes, or in an accident. Restricting your freedom for some small reduction in the obscenely small likelihood that you will be one of the people that dies to violence, when you could carry and do a hell of a lot better for the inconvenience of a few pounds of metal, is insanity.

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Quoting Daiwa,

reply 29

An even twistier twist.

Fascinating. What were they doing THAT for, and at whose behest, I wonder. That was very clearly tampering with evidence..

As for the one just before, again fascinating.

Jafo, you steadfastly insist on denying the reality of the Surveillance State. You ignore the efforts at trampling the Fourth Amendment, and whether you own an Apple product is immaterial. This is not black and white except where it touches the Constitution. THAT'S the point. 9/11 could have been prevented if the government had half a bloody brain among it. The problem was they were asleep at the switch. NOW the problem is they are wide awake, but have no idea of wth to do with it, except to hold onto it as a threat over everyone.

It's up to us (American citizens) to make damned sure that even the worst of us has his rights not trampled upon. I'm sure there's something parallel in Australia, and it's your job to protect that. One cannot protect one's own rights while trampling on someone else's. All are equal in the eyes of the law, or we're in deep shit.

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Quoting psychoak,

reply 30

Restricting your freedom for some small reduction in the obscenely small likelihood that you will be one of the people that dies to violence, when you could carry and do a hell of a lot better for the inconvenience of a few pounds of metal, is insanity.

That presupposes the whole US ethos of 'damn you, Jack, I'm alright' ... as long as no shit affects me any number of [other] people can suffer.

Big pictures and little pictures. The CEO of Apple is looking at HIS 'little picture'... how any such info release will affect his income.

Individually and collectively the US people are looking at their individual 'little pictures' and spouting quotes from a bunch of dead people of no substantive relevance in the here and now other than the US fundamental yearning for a HISTORY of Legend.

Young countries [all of them] are incredibly ego-centric.

People [even some from the US] have given up more than the 'sacred sanctity' of a mobile phone's data in the fight against evil ...including domestic sourced.

People have DIED and continue to DIE in the fight against terrorism, but as long as that happens to someone else... AND my Phone's data is private then I don't give a toss.

Maybe I'm just a dinosaur that is wrong for your world...

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Quoting psychoak,

reply 30

Err... are you really advocating genocide as a solution?! And in the same sentence saying THEY are nazi fascists as a justification?!

I'm not even going to discuss that.

But I will say this (and keep in mind I am not politically correct, in fact, I think too much PC is one of the evils of this world - virtue is, always is, in the middle, never in the extremes):

While everyone - and I mean everyone without exception - is capable of aggression and murder under the right circumstances, some cultures are way more aggressive than others. Unlike what the advocates of political correctness and multi-culturalism want to make you believe, we are NOT all the same.

Some cultures are ready to live and thrive in Democracy. Some are not. Some are able to live in peace. Others seem to constantly seek strife and conflict.

Everywhere there is a tribal mentality (look at nearly all African countries, the Gypsies and most of the Middle East) Democracy will not stand. It's a 'everyone for himself' mentality, a 'us against them', 'them' being anyone that isn't 'me'. In countries and regions like those, a King's or Despot's tyranny is better than Democracy. Why? Because, bad as it is, it is still better than the alternative: total chaos, everyone fighting for power - not for the people, but for themselves. And it is the people and the poor who suffer and die because of this.

Democracy cannot be imposed. It must come from within.

Just look at what happened to Iraq after being invaded by the US. The death toll from 10 years of the “War on Terror” since the 9/11 attacks is at least 1.3 million, and could be as high as 2 million. Many more than if Saddam had stayed in power. Even the direct Iraq/Iran conflict, which lasted 8 years, was not as deadly: 'only' 160,000 to 240,000 causalities on the side of Iraq.

In the movie Lawrence of Arabia, a film loosely based on the life of T.E. Lawrence, Lawrence says to Sherif Ali: 'So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people - greedy, barbarous, and cruel, as you are.'

And so they are. But lets not forget that they would still be too busy bickering among themselves to even remember we exist if it weren't for our need of oil, of which they have plenty. And it has been our policies to control that oil that, directly or indirectly, have caused the present situation.

So do not think for a moment that we are totally blameless. We aren't.

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Quoting DrJBHL,

reply 31

Jafo, you steadfastly insist on denying the reality of the Surveillance State. You ignore the efforts at trampling the Fourth Amendment,

Doc....most of the world, civilized and not...[including me] has no 'fourth amendment'.

300 million out of 7 billion is meaninglessly trivial and irrelevant.

The fact that the US likes to think it rules the planet is simple delusion. The US people's blind pre-occupation with their constitution...[as long as it's interpreted to suit whatever agenda] is borderline comical.

So far, all it manages to do is create the circumstances/environment for the worst gun crime stats of any country [not actually engaged in a War], and the fundamental hatred towards any form of 'authority' as if 'they are all out to get us'. Mein Freedom Uber Alles.

You're a nation of 'starkers' in that regard....

It's an infatuation with self. The individual is always more important than the community/society in which it exists.

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Quoting DrJBHL,

reply 31

Hear, hear!

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Err... are you really advocating genocide as a solution?! And in the same sentence saying THEY are nazi fascists as a justification?!

I'm not even going to discuss that.

It's religicide, not genocide. There's nothing wrong with the "genus", just the intolerant, apocalyptic religion most of them happen to be worshiping. I'd do the long spiel about how completely fucking crazy the religion is, with every major Muslim population being on a fast decline into Islamic fascism and even the western Muslims having horrifyingly high levels of support for such things as killing infidels to get into heaven, executing women after they've been raped for being caught alone, or subjugating the world to bring about a worldwide caliphate, but it would be pointless. No one was worried about Hitler despite the concerning rhetoric in German politics even after he started gearing up for war, and no one will be worried about Islam until long after it's too late to forestall as well. WW3 will come, and if I've lived long enough, I'll still be sardonic enough to find amusement in being right.

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Quoting psychoak,

reply 36

I'd do the long spiel about how completely fucking crazy the religion

The religion is not crazy.....however some people who claim to follow it are.

Remember...try not to discriminate on these forums in any form....race, colour or CREED.

There are rules....

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Oh, crap.

I NEED to do a complete 180.

It seems there's this dickhead called Trump who wants people to boycott Apple to force 'em to unlock the phone...

....and hell can freeze over before I believe Trump is right about anything...

ever.

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Ban me whenever you feel like it, but the religion is crazy until they rewrite their holy books to not say they're supposed to enslave and kill anyone that doesn't convert. At present, there is widespread support among even the western populations. You get similar numbers for chopping peoples heads off because they converted from Islam as you would for things like outlawing abortions or banning abstinence free sex ed from public schools in the Christian community. These are simple facts, and no amount of apologist rhetoric will erase 1500 years of seldom interrupted brutality and intolerance on par with the darkest moments in the history of the other major religions of today.

....and hell can freeze over before I believe Trump is right about anything...

This is somewhat problematic, because Trump is right on most things, by process of elimination. Once you've taken every side of an issue, you're bound to get it right at some point.

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Jafo...you should do a 180. Not because of Trump, but because governments and power structures have to have boundaries put on them or else those subject to their whims and decrees are essentially thralls.

Quoting Jafo,

reply 34

Doc....most of the world, civilized and not...[including me] has no 'fourth amendment'.

Well get one! The heck's the matter with you folks? Can't you see the advantage of having one?

Watch what happens when you do try to have a Bill of Rights, and enforce it. You think your government's going to say, "Sure! Today soon enough?"?

Why don't I? And no...my namesake fought the British for that Bill of Rights, and I'm not giving it up to any phony government bs.

No religion. No politics. Those are the rules.

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Interesting debate, interesting opinions, now here are those of the cynic.

Apart from the bit about guns and shooting people, the American constitution is essentially based on Magna Carta.

Does anyone seriously believe that Apple does not have a back door.

Power and influence creates corruption.

Governments (hence politicians) by their very nature are corrupt.

Large global companies by their very nature are corrupt.

Who collects more of our personal data than Apple, Amazon, Google & MS, and who pays much less tax than us 'little people'.

Don't worry about today, fear for tomorrow, when we all work for the 'Company' and are beholden to them for our very existence, when they control every aspect of our lives,(work, health etc and a place to live). Be afraid, because they will also 'own' the government. That is our real future.

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Quoting psychoak,

reply 39

Ban me whenever you feel like it, but the religion is crazy until they rewrite their holy books to not say they're supposed to enslave and kill anyone that doesn't convert.

Yes I can, but mostly I don't...

Last time I looked I didn't notice anything in their 'holy books' about such, however, last time I looked in a 'bible' I saw all sorts of social abominations and prejudice, and if ANY book has been argued/cited as justification for atrocities throughout history it's that one.

It's safe to say ALL mainstream religions have their 'problems'.... but none has more than the 'Wako' type [cults, etc]...

Then there's the KKK .... a fine bunch of upright citizens are they...

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The book psychoak refers to has a dichotomy into the Medinan and Meccan halves...the early part was non-violent, accepting and respectful of others. The later half (deemed to be the "correct" half because of chronology) quite the opposite and designed to be marketed to tribal warrior, paternalistic "culture". The other parts psychoak mentioned about enslavement/forcible conversion? Quite correct.

All religious chronologies have earlier, more primitive and warrior parts...comes with the territory, and the then existent paradigm. Problem is that while some progressed, others have not, enforced by religion and using religion as an 'excuse' for behavior unacceptable to other "cultures". The other problem is "forced geographic identities" on people who still define themselves by tribal/clannish and 'familial' identities rather than national ones.

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Of course...no matter what the topic there's always a Python quote...

"No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition..."

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If I understand the issue correctly. It's not about unlocking a single iphone. It's providing the DoJ with software to unlock that iphone, Which would make all other iphones unlockable by the DoJ.

If people didn't have religion to be snarky about, there would be something else. Prejudice appears to be a human trait?

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Quoting gmc2,

reply 45

If I understand the issue correctly. It's not about unlocking a single iphone. It's providing the DoJ with software to unlock that iphone, Which would make all other iphones unlockable by the DoJ.

Not completely: There's also the matter of precedent. Once they can force this, have no doubts they'll be into everything, "To serve and protect." BS. To pry and coerce, closer to the truth.

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The Bible was used as justification to a populace that was kept intentionally ignorant by restricting it's print to a language none of them could read. The only thing that compares to the general tenor of the second half of the Qur'an, is Leviticus 20:13. Homosexuals are executed as a matter of course in the Islamic world, so on this one point Islam is no better and actively engaging in it today. Calls to violence such as the conquest of Canaan are event specific, later writings of past history, or at least what they considered to be history.

The author of the Qur'an, on the other hand, told the faithful to kill polytheists, subjugate monotheists, and generally advocated raiding and conquering anyone that didn't recognize Allah once he held power. This was said in advance of conquering his peaceful neighbors in Mecca that he'd negotiated a ten year truce with a couple years earlier. He practiced what he preached, waging war and raiding throughout his rule in Medina. There are far more wars in a short period of ten years in the Qur'an and Hadith, than are mentioned in the entirety of the Bible, a collection of documents covering an incomparably vast time frame.

His successors made him look tame, factions within his own family spent the next generation or so slaughtering and conquering each other, and their neighbors, beginning the fractures that resulted in the Sunni and Shia sects. Meanwhile, they were writing most of the accompanying religious texts they use today, a great many justifications for killing and enslaving pervade them as a result.

For Christianity to be similar to Islam in this respect, Jesus and the Apostles would have needed to call on the faithful to wage war on the unbelievers. Instead, they were only called to spread the word in a somewhat more literal sense, by preaching.

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Quoting gevansmd,

reply 23

My point is, getting a warrant when you're in custody for the crime should be easier. In other words, it's not an unreasonable search. It appears as if proper procedures were followed to get the order.

No it shouldn't be easier. It should fall under the exact same rules. If all they need to do is arrest you first to make it easier, why bother ever getting a search warrant the appropriate way?

The only way it would work they way you think is if they required some sort of evidence to place you in custody in the first place. Which they do not. Granted they can't hold you forever, but if all they need is to have you in custody for the time it takes to get a warrant, that is all they will do.

That would be a blatant end-around on the laws in place regarding search warrants.

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Quoting JcRabbit,

reply 33

But lets not forget that they would still be too busy bickering among themselves to even remember we exist if it weren't for our need of oil, of which they have plenty. And it has been our policies to control that oil that, directly or indirectly, have caused the present situation.

So do not think for a moment that we are totally blameless. We aren't.

Thanks for your post and the above portion in particular. What is missing from the conversation is the extent to which the "West's" exploitation of the middle east has made it a target for terrorism. If we were really willing to stop the meddling and meet our own energy needs it would become possible for the situation to change.

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Quoting Victechnical,

reply 49

Quoting JcRabbit,

reply 33

The "problem" is that alternative energy is a commie pinko liberal plot... [rolling eyes smiley]

At least the majority of the people on this board believe that.

The day that fusion become a cost effective reality, is the day that the Middle East becomes irrelevant.

I would love to be alive when that happens, and watch all them fight over sand dunes and worthless viscous liquids.

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The content will remain as a historical reference, thank you.

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” – B. Franklin

DrJBHL