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Iterating further on Elemental

By Frogboy on October 21, 2013 1:58:21 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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I was playing Galactic Civilizations II last night. I hadn’t played it in a very long time and was stunned by just how much…awesome it has in it.  That awesomeness didn’t come from the original design. It came from years and years of iteration and frankly, labors of love.

The problem I see with Legendary Heroes is that it’s really hard to do iteration like that.  After all, it’s technically Elemental: Fallen Enchantress – Legendary Heroes. It’s a mouth full.  No one calls GalCiv II “Twilight of the Arnor”. It’s just called GalCiv.

But Elemental got off to such a rocky start that for good or bad, we don’t really call it Elemental anymore.  If the quality and fandom that supports Legendary Heroes could somehow be applied to Elemental that would be great.  But it’s not. It’s barely applied to Fallen Enchantress.

Frankly, from a purely a branding perspective – i.e. the THING that people remember playing, we basically call it Legendary Heroes.  It’s just really hosed up.

Then you have the DLC situation.  The DLC for Legendary Heroes doesn’t just sell well. It sells insanely well. There’s a huge demand for it because the installed base of the game we call Legendary Heroes (but is really Elemental: Fallen Enchantress – Legendary Heroes) keeps growing.

I know some people don’t care about the name.  But the reality is, the single biggest thing holding LH back is the brand confusion.  I’ve seen people on various forums say that LH is probably the best fantasy 4X that is currently available (though Age of Wonders 3 is looking pretty awesome). 

So we have this great fantasy game that we have the budget to keep iterating on that is artificially held down because no one really knows what to call it.

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Reply #26
Teslacrashed
Join Date 09/2006
+2
October 21, 2013 5:34:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree you can't keep calling it Fallen Enchantress, as it doesn't make since beyond that one game.

I do like the name Elemental, but it is a tad on the generic side when it comes to doing a Google search and whatnot.

I like the idea of sticking to War of Magic, somewhat. 

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Reply #27
drgraves
Join Date 04/2009
0
October 21, 2013 6:34:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

How about World of Elemental or Hero's of Elemental.

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Reply #28
NorsemanViking
Join Date 03/2006
+18
October 21, 2013 6:43:33 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Go for Elemental II, and make it a great game. You Stardockians have learned how to make fantasy 4X now, and if it's great it will sell great, regardless of the name. The good thing is you keep the continuty, and saves the Elemental brand.

 

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Reply #29
stein220
Join Date 12/2008
+12
October 21, 2013 6:51:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I came in during the Fallen Enchantress beta and that's what I fell in love with.  That, to me, is the base game and LH is a (great) expansion for that.  Same with Sins.  I only play Rebellion now but I still think of it as Sins (of a Solar Empire). 

Do you have plans to do any more expansions or iterations that were as big as LH? If so (and I hope so), you don't want to keep running on your brand treadmill.

I get maybe dropping "Elemental" from the branding because, in a sense, it seems you released FE in spite of the first one's reception, but FE's success allowed you to make LH.  To me, Fallen Enchantress is the foundation of your success here.  Maybe I'm biased because I just like the name "Fallen Enchantress" the best. 

As an aside, campaign-wise, I almost feel like the titles are backwards.  FE's campaign focused more on small bands of (legendary) heroes in the East but LH's focused on the war against the Fallen Enchantress.

Whatever you call it, I'll probably play it. 

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Reply #30
bpalczewski
Join Date 05/2010
+8
October 21, 2013 8:17:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Fallen Heroes: Enchantment of War 

just a little bit more confusion  

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Reply #31
Kantok
Join Date 10/2007
+67
October 21, 2013 8:54:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting NorsemanViking,
reply 28

Go for Elemental II, and make it a great game. You Stardockians have learned how to make fantasy 4X now, and if it's great it will sell great, regardless of the name. The good thing is you keep the continuty, and saves the Elemental brand.

 

This.  

Elemental 2: Subtitle.  

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Reply #32
MarvinKosh
Join Date 08/2005
+81
October 21, 2013 8:55:04 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Brad, in all seriousness, I think if you want to rebrand retroactively, there's no reason why you need to use the same brand for each title.  In fact, it gives you a lot of freedom in future iterations if you aren't stuck with some weighty name.

Yeah I know, that narrows it down to like, practically anything.

 

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Reply #33
donovans23
Join Date 12/2012
0
October 21, 2013 8:59:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'd say Elemental 2. Or maybe just Fallen (you can have Fallen: Enchantress, then Fallen: fill in the blank, etc)

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Reply #34
RooksBailey
Join Date 02/2008
+10
October 21, 2013 9:23:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Call it Magic: Bacon.  The "magic" covers the fantasy part, and everyone loves bacon.

Frogboy:  I was playing Galactic Civilizations II last night. I hadn’t played it in a very long time and was stunned by just how much…awesome it has in it.  That awesomeness didn’t come from the original design. It came from years and years of iteration and frankly, labors of love.

Funny you should say that because I also reinstalled GalCiv 2 yesterday after laying off it for quite some time.  And like you, I am impressed by all the great ideas that were incorporated in your magnum opus.   Even after all these years, the game plays extremely well and is as entertaining as ever.  I think one of its stronger assets is how the gameplay is very "clean", for lack of a better term.  It avoids unnecessary complexity, a trap many other sci-fi 4X games fall into.   In some ways, GalCiv 2 reminds me of an excellent board game port. 

 

 

 

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Reply #35
Nick-Danger
Join Date 09/2009
+28
October 21, 2013 9:27:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,
quoting post
...But the reality is, the single biggest thing holding LH back is the brand confusion...
If your concern about embracing the 'Elemental' name is the 'baggage' from Elemental's release, I think you have 2 options:

1- run away from the 'Elemental' name (the marketeers would say 'rebrand' or some similar spin, but I'm not a marketeer so am speaking plainly).

1- embrace the 'Elemental' name.

I'm not a businessman or marketeer, I'm just an old guy with an advanced degree from the School of Hard Knocks, so take the following with that in mind.

Option 1's reasonings are obvious and no doubt you're well aware of them, and you also have folks who can make this argument.  So... I'll address option 2.

By 'embrace' I think of Tyrion Lannister's advice to Bran Stark regarding Bran's being partly paralyzed -- own your weaknesses so others can't use it against you.  Turn a negative into a positive.

Exactly what happened with the release of Elemental?  What happened is:

-you screwed up

-you told the truth

-you accepted responsibility

-you not only fixed it (Fallen Enchantress), you improved it (LH), and you even made it more than right by giving out the fix/improvement for free.

-now you're continuing to fix/improve/expand the game

That's something to be proud of.

Everyone screws up.  Screwing up isn't what's important, it's how we act afterwards.  That's what I'd embrace -- how you acted afterwards, how you made it right.  Most big companies don't make it right, they do as little as possible while moving on to the next project.  This would be a good way to distinguish SD from other companies, and build brand loyalty.  Being loyal to us encourages us to be loyal to you.

Part of which option you choose depends on your target market.  If you're going for a huge market (which means most common denominator type of games) then option 1 is likely the best choice.  If you're going for a smaller market (of serious/dedicated/etc. fans) then perhaps option 2 is acceptable.

So, if option 1 you need to drop 'Elemental' from the name and move on.  If option 2 then a simple 'Elemental LH' (and 'Elemental XX' for the next expansion).  A sorta middle road for option 2 could be along the likes of 'E-LH' -- keeping the 'Elemental' part but with some distancing.

I kinda like E-LH as it's short, snappy, and doesn't run away from the past.

Then again, I'm not a businessman or marketeer so what do I know? 

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Reply #36
cardinaldirection
Join Date 08/2012
+18
October 21, 2013 9:50:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting donovans23,
reply 33

I'd say Elemental 2. Or maybe just Fallen (you can have Fallen: Enchantress, then Fallen: fill in the blank, etc)

 

How about "Elemental II: Rise of Magic"

^

Own it like a badge of honor! (and reclaim the google search)

 

Although to me FE + LH feel like Elemental 2, and the next would be "The Third Elemental".

 

 

This line from the Lore page is intriguing: "What follows is what has been passed down since the days of the Fallen Enchantress, the War of Magic and the rise of the Empire of Sorcery."

 

The "Fallen: " idea is fun too...

"Fallen Civilizations"

"Fallen Empires" (MtG I know)

"Fallen Heroes"

"Fallen Elementals"

"Fallen Dynasties"

"Fallen Immortals"

"Fallen Realms"

"Fallen Channeler"

"Fallen Sorcerer"

 

 

 

NPH killed the word Legendary.

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Reply #37
Hawawaa
Join Date 09/2006
+30
October 21, 2013 10:44:43 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I like Fallen Elemental(s)...  All new expansions follow FE format. haha 

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Reply #38
Illauna
Join Date 09/2006
+67
October 21, 2013 10:49:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Legendary Heroes : War of the Frog

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Reply #39
tazgecko
Join Date 05/2008
+177
October 21, 2013 11:05:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Elemental is a fantasy world and should be secondary (and separate) to any gaming in that world. It's the foundation, the story line, the mythology for a game set into it. It gives the opportunity of having different types games in a world that punters are familiar with.

A game name is a style of playing in the Elemental world. 

Only get rid of Elemental if you don't want to build on it, or it's not working.

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Reply #40
MarvinKosh
Join Date 08/2005
+81
October 21, 2013 11:37:29 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Hypothetically, if you were going to take a new tack and depict channelers in a completely different world (for instance, one where magic takes the form of advanced technology) you probably wouldn't use the name Elemental.  It would be confusing.

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Reply #41
Heavenfall
Join Date 07/2008
+436
October 22, 2013 1:05:20 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

No way should you go for Elemental 2, that's just dumb. Every time a post comes up on other forums about Stardock, be it Galciv3 being announced or anything else, someone (almost) always mentions that Elemental was a huge fail and that they are never going to preorder / buy from Stardock again. The Elemental name is etched firmly as a disappointment.

Fallen Enchantress is your new IP, as far as I can tell. NOBODY speaks only ill things about that title (of course it's not all positive) but people know Derek Paxton has been involved in the series from that point and the games have also been received much better.

 Keeping the Elemental name is just a bold challenge that there's no reason to take head on. Why would you want every preview/review start with "The original Elemental game was an absolute disasster" when you can get the good memories from FE instead?

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Reply #42
NorsemanViking
Join Date 03/2006
+18
October 22, 2013 2:20:44 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
reply 41

No way should you go for Elemental 2, that's just dumb. Every time a post comes up on other forums about Stardock, be it Galciv3 being announced or anything else, someone (almost) always mentions that Elemental was a huge fail and that they are never going to preorder / buy from Stardock again. The Elemental name is etched firmly as a disappointment.

Fallen Enchantress is your new IP, as far as I can tell. NOBODY speaks only ill things about that title (of course it's not all positive) but people know Derek Paxton has been involved in the series from that point and the games have also been received much better.

 Keeping the Elemental name is just a bold challenge that there's no reason to take head on. Why would you want every preview/review start with "The original Elemental game was an absolute disasster" when you can get the good memories from FE instead?

 

It's like lying on your age, telling people you are older then you are, and get compliments about how fresh you look. It's no disaster if reviews starts like that, because they will most certainly end with praize and extra good rating. The game (number 2) will be insanly better then they expect if they judge it from Elemental, and not it's expansions.

 

By the way, Stardock must be planning an expansion or follow up since this subject is hurting the Frog's head so much. Good news indeed. Might be one of the other great announcements coming from Stardock this month. They just can't decide what to call the game when they announce.

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Reply #43
MarvinKosh
Join Date 08/2005
+81
October 22, 2013 2:31:36 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Well if you ever decide to go for a fantasy themed squad-based magic combat game set in Elemental you could name it ECOM Enchantress Unknown.

+1
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Reply #44
Wintersong
Join Date 07/2006
+235
October 22, 2013 9:09:26 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Hawawaa,
reply 25

Elemental Prime.... (most games after all major expansions are out you add prime on the end....) ya thats all I got.   Arn't I useless... 

Elemental Z.

And losts of blonde dyes and hair lotion too.

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Reply #45
Kantok
Join Date 10/2007
+67
October 22, 2013 9:32:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
reply 41

No way should you go for Elemental 2, that's just dumb. Every time a post comes up on other forums about Stardock, be it Galciv3 being announced or anything else, someone (almost) always mentions that Elemental was a huge fail and that they are never going to preorder / buy from Stardock again. The Elemental name is etched firmly as a disappointment.

Fallen Enchantress is your new IP, as far as I can tell. NOBODY speaks only ill things about that title (of course it's not all positive) but people know Derek Paxton has been involved in the series from that point and the games have also been received much better.

 Keeping the Elemental name is just a bold challenge that there's no reason to take head on. Why would you want every preview/review start with "The original Elemental game was an absolute disasster" when you can get the good memories from FE instead?

The preview/review will start with that regardless as long as its a fantasy TBS game.  I'd wager a fair amount of GC3 reviews will include mentions of WOM too.  

Those people who still rage about WOM whenever SD is mentioned... they'll never be satisfied.  Ever.  SD will never win them over.  Many of them were probably never SD fans (this issue just being a convenient internet rage outlet) and the rest who really were fans and have walked away, well that's their right.  But if FE and LH didn't satiate customers feelings over WOM, nothing ever will.  Those people are NOT your target segment, by definition, because SD can't possibly win them over. 

Keeping the Elemental name (whether it's E2 or just E:Subtitle) at least shows that SD isn't trying to hide it's history.  It also encourages reviewers who bring up WOM (which is inevitable) to tell the whole story about the Elemental franchise, because its a franchise.  Sure WOM was terrible, and they'll say that, but if they are at all reputable they'll have to mention the succeeding Elemental games and how awesome they were and how they were given to a large part of the customer base.  

The quest to find an alternative to Elemental as a brand label for SD's Fantasy TBS game is futile.  You're trying to please those who never will be.  

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Reply #46
abob101
Join Date 11/2010
+49
October 22, 2013 10:11:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
reply 16
The default is to simply keep iterating Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes for the foreseable future until it becomes outdated and it'll be a stand-alone game. No sequels.

I would have though that this is not such a bad thing for the short/medium term future at least... given that LH is always talked about very positively... why try and get fancy and rebrand or anything now.  Make the most of all the hard work and if the DLC is selling well just keep building on the great foundation that LH is.

You could always do a mini expansion in the future and call it FE: LH Gold (or something similarly cheesy, but keep the FE: LH name).  Bundle all the existing DLC's, and some significant new stuff (like a couple of factions, or maybe air/naval units or the community is hanging out for), call it FE: LH Gold and sell it for 15 bucks or something.  Do it 4 weeks before AoW3 comes out

 

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Reply #47
nomotog
Join Date 08/2013
+6
October 22, 2013 10:12:07 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If you release a good expansion for Fallen enchantress with the name elemental in it, that could help cover up the old elemental search results?

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Reply #48
Ekko_Tek
Join Date 10/2008
+26
October 22, 2013 11:03:24 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Elemental as a brand name probably only means something to forum regulars here and to game reviewers and their regular readers. Do the majority of current FE:LH players know or care about the word Elemental right now? I would imagine a lot of players discovered FE as something new in itself, completely unattached from any Elemental baggage. Stardock would know better than I ofc, but if this is all true, then what is the point in re-introducing the name Elemental instead of iterating off of FE/LH somehow?

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Reply #49
smeagolheart
Join Date 06/2008
+12
October 22, 2013 11:16:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Maybe call it Elemental Civilizations?   Then you have GalCiv and you can have ElCiv.

 

All the cool games have acronyms:  MOO, MOM, GalCiv, Civ, etc.

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Reply #50
sareth01
Join Date 08/2008
+37
October 22, 2013 1:18:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Nick-Danger,
reply 35
quoting post
...But the reality is, the single biggest thing holding LH back is the brand confusion...
If your concern about embracing the 'Elemental' name is the 'baggage' from Elemental's release, I think you have 2 options:
1- run away from the 'Elemental' name (the marketeers would say 'rebrand' or some similar spin, but I'm not a marketeer so am speaking plainly).

1- embrace the 'Elemental' name.

I'm not a businessman or marketeer, I'm just an old guy with an advanced degree from the School of Hard Knocks, so take the following with that in mind.

Option 1's reasonings are obvious and no doubt you're well aware of them, and you also have folks who can make this argument.  So... I'll address option 2.

By 'embrace' I think of Tyrion Lannister's advice to Bran Stark regarding Bran's being partly paralyzed -- own your weaknesses so others can't use it against you.  Turn a negative into a positive.

Exactly what happened with the release of Elemental?  What happened is:

-you screwed up

-you told the truth

-you accepted responsibility

-you not only fixed it (Fallen Enchantress), you improved it (LH), and you even made it more than right by giving out the fix/improvement for free.

-now you're continuing to fix/improve/expand the game

That's something to be proud of.

Everyone screws up.  Screwing up isn't what's important, it's how we act afterwards.  That's what I'd embrace -- how you acted afterwards, how you made it right.  Most big companies don't make it right, they do as little as possible while moving on to the next project.  This would be a good way to distinguish SD from other companies, and build brand loyalty.  Being loyal to us encourages us to be loyal to you.

Part of which option you choose depends on your target market.  If you're going for a huge market (which means most common denominator type of games) then option 1 is likely the best choice.  If you're going for a smaller market (of serious/dedicated/etc. fans) then perhaps option 2 is acceptable.

So, if option 1 you need to drop 'Elemental' from the name and move on.  If option 2 then a simple 'Elemental LH' (and 'Elemental XX' for the next expansion).  A sorta middle road for option 2 could be along the likes of 'E-LH' -- keeping the 'Elemental' part but with some distancing.

I kinda like E-LH as it's short, snappy, and doesn't run away from the past.

Then again, I'm not a businessman or marketeer so what do I know? 

@Nick-Danger

This is a 100% spot on post, you took the words right out of my mouth.    

@OP-Frogboy

Why spend money informing people that your game exists when you got so much free press on it's failure?  Investing more money into creating a new brand will just erase and confuse what you've done, while wasting money on creating a new brand.  If you have to deal with a culture that may turn their noses up to a past failure and they have the ability to unseat you as a CEO, I can see why the move may be justified and why you may be feeling pressure to do so.  I think re-branding is the easy way out(and uncharacteristic of the brand you are trying to build), you need to convince "them" otherwise.

There is a significant precedent that you can call on, I have it from my own experience.  While I was in the military(the largest employer in the USA), the cultural norm was that everyone messes up, you fix the issue and get on with it and you were gauged not on the failure, but on how quickly you got over your own emotional blockages and adapted to the situation.  I recommend you take this bit from military culture and adapt it to fit your corporate culture, as it breeds adaptive thinking.  Adaptive companies survive and usually prosper.  All you have to do is control how the rewards are handed out.

I would consider that creating a new brand is unnecessary, a waste of money, time, and it is not the core issue at hand.  I've seen some brilliant game design from your company, apply that thinking to the real world.

Why would you make a large game balance change when all you need is a subtle fix?

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