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Iteration

By on November 29, 2011 11:51:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 

Iteration is both wonderful and terrifying.  It is the place where you take delight in the designs that are working out, and weep for the designs that sounded good but aren’t.  It would be nice if I could sketch out a perfect plan, implement that plan and have an amazing game.  But it takes work.

One of our initial concerns when we started to playtest was that the game felt like War of Magic.  Despite the changes, many of which wouldn’t be really apparent until 100-200 turns in, it still had a WoM vibe to it.  My solution was to create custom quests for each sovereign to start with.  You would have to earn some of your sovereigns starting bonuses and treasures.  That way the player had a motivating objective for his first 100 turns that would get him in and playing.

It helped answer the questions of “Who am I?” and “Why am I here?”.  It gave some flavor and personality to the starting sovereigns.  And it made the starting game feel different.  I pitched the idea to the rest of the team.  We hashed out the pros and cons.  We could make it work with custom sovereigns if we tied it to their history (so if you picked Adventurer as your history you would get Relias’s starting quest).  And this solution had some limited replayability (in that you might want to play the different starting quests) but in the long term it could get redundant (off to fix the corrupted mana shards with Procipinee again…).

But the best feedback came from Brad.  I don’t recall the exact quote but it was something to the effect of, “If it feels too much like WoM don’t make superficial changes, change the game.”

That was the impetus for the change to the production system.  We didn’t like the old production system, but it was a lot of work to change.  The code changes are only a small part, the UI and rebalance challenges are considerable.  I requested an extension on the timeline and Brad approved the change.

This is the process of video game iteration, and I suspect it is the same for movies, books, and other creative endeavors.  You leave your ego behind, it will only get in the way.  You walk through fire and in the end you have a game that is so much better because of it.  Be open to change, listen to other people’s opinions and evaluate them within the specific vision of the game.  Focus on the things that matter.

I am very excited for Fallen Enchantress.  I am, of course, biased.  But it is a beautiful game and it does some things that I have never seen done in a TBS game.  But the change to the production system, random worlds, increasing the population of cities and some new features (outposts) requires work.

It's not implementation time, Stardock has an amazing team.  Implementation is only 25% of the way there.  The real focus now is in balance.  Not perfect balance, not if a short sword should do 8 or 9 damage.  But how quickly you gain research, what things modify that, how is that balanced for small empires vs large empires?  How much does a fire shard affect your fire spells?  What is the difference between a city with good production capacity and weak production capacity (and how long should it take to train a medium army in each)?

Random worlds are another big part.  I love crazy randomness, in general I'm probably too far on that extreme.  I'm amused if I start a game right next to an Ogre lair and he wipes me out on turn 4.  It's a little less funny when I'm 200 turns in and I walk into a wildland and every monster in there streams out in a civilization crushing tide of doom.  Randomness must have some control.

Unwilling to give up our random worlds we implemented controls on how close to starting spots certain things are allowed to be.  You will never start right next to a quest you can't accept (which is frustrating) or a monster that can wipe you out.  The farther out you go the more interesting it gets.  A treasure chest won't be within 8 tiles of your starting location, a Hoarder Spider won't be within 12, and if you get far enough out there you may find dragons.

But it all takes balance and we aren't ready for a public beta on it while we still know what the issues are.  We need to get those in and smoothed out, we need the game to play as it should so that when you start to play your feedback can be useful.  It doesn't mean much if you think you are too weak if we know we are going to push some monsters away from the starting area, or if you think tech comes too slowly if we are going to be raising population (which affects everything).

So I asked Brad to postpone the public beta (sorry) and he agreed.  We need time with the features set to play and tweak, to go through our games so that when you have a chance to play we are ready for the feedback you offer.

 

+68 Karma | 112 Replies
November 30, 2011 10:58:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sounds reasonable, it's always ok when you give a decent reason like this.

November 30, 2011 11:14:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting PanicWave,
Edited: But it would be great if you guys gives us something back like daily journals.

 

If easy enough please oh please make sure there be an epic sized map option with all the bells & whistles the game has to offer (All the Wildlands, 50+ custom factions, etc. and might I suggest, "I better see some god damn ponies!" , a huge lumberjack with high constitution/strength wielding a throwing axe of returning, a 'werefox?' with great vision that can move twice as far & fast as any other, an optional Wildland with a Giant King Frog that has a swallow whole ability gaining some powerful trait the first two times defeated making him nothing to take lightly for I'm sure he's spent many a season fattening up on 'Trolls'(What if the Wildland was under constant attack from nearby troll encampments?), perhaps the Wildland could be in the shape of Michigan, and so on

November 30, 2011 11:24:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You are really hard working on your karma Grizzyloins.

 

@Topic

Sure, i can´t wait to play/test this game. But if it isn´t ready, it isn´t ready. What would you say, how much more time will it take?

November 30, 2011 11:24:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


There's no health bar over the rock elemental thingie in the second figure because it is infinitely long...

November 30, 2011 11:46:24 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

He probably eats health bars for breakfast...

November 30, 2011 11:50:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


So I asked Brad to postpone the public beta (sorry) and he agreed.  We need time with the features set to play and tweak, to go through our games so that when you have a chance to play we are ready for the feedback you offer.

 

I guess I will be the first to ask about whether there is a new estimate on the release of the Beta?  I am all for taking as long as you need, but at the same time, just for my own sanity, I would like to have an idea on whether we are talking 2-3 weeks or months from now.

November 30, 2011 11:55:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Months, probably end of January at the earliest.  Gotta give the troops some break for the holidays.  My guess.

November 30, 2011 12:04:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think sometimes in january is realistic, yes.

November 30, 2011 12:06:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

My solution was to create custom quests for each sovereign to start with.  You would have to earn some of your sovereigns starting bonuses and treasures.  That way the player had a motivating objective for his first 100 turns that would get him in and playing.

While it might not have solved the specific dilemma that you were trying to address, I hope you kept the brilliant custom quest feature. It sounds exactly like you described it: an immediate immersion into the game world and your sovereign.

Regarding the beta: My initial thought was something like "NOOOOooookay." Obviously, we want to get our hands on this tantalizing morsel as soon as possible. But you're absolutely right. You've got to get the system resolved before you ship it out to the community. So I'm okay with a delay. I second the call for a new estimate on beta. I've been counting down the days until Thanksgiving and daily visiting the forum daily for news of the beta. If I know that the new beta is "months, probably end of January at the earliest" away, then I'll be prepared for the long wait to beta.

Keep up the great work, Team Stardock.

November 30, 2011 12:19:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting IronKaiser,

quoting postMy solution was to create custom quests for each sovereign to start with.  You would have to earn some of your sovereigns starting bonuses and treasures.  That way the player had a motivating objective for his first 100 turns that would get him in and playing.


While it might not have solved the specific dilemma that you were trying to address, I hope you kept the brilliant custom quest feature. It sounds exactly like you described it: an immediate immersion into the game world and your sovereign.

Regarding the beta: My initial thought was something like "NOOOOooookay." Obviously, we want to get our hands on this tantalizing morsel as soon as possible. But you're absolutely right. You've got to get the system resolved before you ship it out to the community. So I'm okay with a delay. I second the call for a new estimate on beta. I've been counting down the days until Thanksgiving and daily visiting the forum daily for news of the beta. If I know that the new beta is "months, probably end of January at the earliest" away, then I'll be prepared for the long wait to beta.

Keep up the great work, Team Stardock.

 

I'm not sure about the quest thing myself. Perfect for a campaign mode, sounds like it would get seriously tiresome as the beginning of a sandbox game though.

November 30, 2011 12:30:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sad that there is a delay but its far more important to make a better game. Got plenty of games to keep my mind away from FE over winter break.

 

Those screenshots are nice. Love having lots of abilities and stats to work with. Hopefully you were ready for that fight too.

 

Thanks for keeping us updated!

November 30, 2011 12:33:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Admit it, you guys are really playing Skyrim. 

Well, I think most of us will be occupied for a little while so take what time is needed to make Fallen Enchantress better.  

Having specific quest lines based on talent choices doesn't sound like a bad idea.  They'd be optional right?  And it might encourage us to play around with different talents and different talent combos to see the different quests.  Also it could possibly help balance the starting abilities if a quest line dropped a good item for an otherwise weak ability that few people play.

You didn't say much about the production changes so I can't say much there, but one thing about Elemental is that the early game goes much faster, turn for turn, than the late game.  In the beginning it might take 100 turns to casually explore the surrounding area, than later on it take 2-4 turns to cripple a civilization.  So it didn't surprise me it would take a couple hundred turns to distinguish itself because that is when the gameplay starts kicking in.

November 30, 2011 12:54:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If given the choice between delay or having the folks work overtime, I'll take the delay.  Programmers and designers who get sufficient time off do a much better job.

 

 

November 30, 2011 1:00:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Fearzone,
Admit it, you guys are really playing Skyrim.

 

  We were having our update meeting a few days ago and I was going around the table until I got to Paul, our Art Director, and I asked what he was working on.  His answer was "I'm trying to get my enchanting up to 100..."

  Needless to say, this had nothing to do with FE.

November 30, 2011 1:05:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Good call on the population issue. If you're going to have a system where income is more of less proportional to population, it was always going to be tough to create an economic system that worked for empires of anywhere between 1 and 10000 citizens. Because then you have to have end game units that cost 1000 times the early game units (and for that to work, they need to be 1000 times as good). It was just too many orders of magnitude, and i think it would be better to simply start higher and pay less per person.

 

I really don't care about the timescale myself. It's more important to get it right (within budget of course). We've long since passed the point where you have to have X graphics and Y features if you release in Z year, not for this kind of game or customer anyway. Most of us are still happily playing 5, 6 year old games or older. Although I must say, recent screenshots have been gorgeous.

November 30, 2011 1:09:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

One way I plan to avoid people feeling like a quest is boring with a mod I have been working on is to have several quests as one quest. 

ex: Following up on rumors at a local inn, you set out investigate an abandoned farmhouse not far off. Upon reaching the ruined ranch, you notice a flickering light in one of the windows. 

Option 1: You are sure there can be no good within those walls. You command a surprise attack on the farmhouse, gaining the advantage on your foes. 

Option 2: You decide you may learn more from subterfuge than brute force. You command your army to lay in wait out if sight while you investigate personally, hoping to learn as much about this clandestine occurrence before making a decision. 

Based on what you choose, you may get the upper hand in a battle or learn important information about whoever is there. Now the cool part is that there will be 10 quests with this exact same beginning. So choosing one option will cause different things to happen each time. Eventually you will have played them all several times and know every possible outcome, but you will still have an interesting choice each time you choose to go questing. 

Out of the 10 version, 2 will have great loot for that level, 2 will have a drastic consequence (harder battle due to a foul up in your execution of the choice), 2 will lead you on to discovering more about this mysterious new enemy, and 4 will be standard battle scenarios with unique flavor. 

 

This kind of quest building takes work and time to implement, but is more interesting than knowing a quest so well that it feels like a grind. I have had the benefit of a year to write my quests, just waiting to be able to put them in xml format and make loot decisions and whatnot as I am sure all that has changed since WoM.

The point of that was to show how you could make a starting quest add something to the Sov without being repetitive. Got a little carried away. 

November 30, 2011 1:13:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

And they said they are raising the population in the context of the current values, not changing the whole number values in the game. Calm yourselves. I would guess that a 25% raise in pop cap would add money, research, and production while costing more food at each level. That kind of thing. 

November 30, 2011 1:20:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Derek - Thank you for the explanation.  It sounds like we're going to be glad you made us wait.

 

November 30, 2011 1:40:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

@seanw3:

Making great quests with unknown elements is great. I don't know if it will be possible to do, but I hope you can make some of the quests have branching effects passively based on the hero's stats. A hero with really high/low Intelligence, or Charisma, should experience different outcomes for (some) of his quests.

@topic:

I'm grateful for every little update on FE, so keep us posted on everything you do and I don't care if it takes a year or two to get the game done the right way.

 

November 30, 2011 1:46:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Stat checks are on my wishlist, but I don't think they will make it onto the the iteration board at Stardock. That is my favorite part of Fallout quests, where your charisma or intelligence gives you an advantage. 

November 30, 2011 1:58:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Derek Paxton,

  We were having our update meeting a few days ago and I was going around the table until I got to Paul, our Art Director, and I asked what he was working on.  His answer was "I'm trying to get my enchanting up to 100..."

Talk about iteration right there.

November 30, 2011 2:05:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It sounds like you guys have a sound policy for development. I agree with most people here, take your time get is most of the way there. Then go beta. I have lots of Skyrim to work on in the meantime.

November 30, 2011 2:05:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Random worlds are another big part.  I love crazy randomness, in general I'm probably too far on that extreme.  I'm amused if I start a game right next to an Ogre lair and he wipes me out on turn 4.  It's a little less funny when I'm 200 turns in and I walk into a wildland and every monster in there streams out in a civilization crushing tide of doom.  Randomness must have some control.

The world should not necessarily be random, it should be varied.  There should be reason behind what happens.  The world needs to live and breathe on its own.  You should theoretically be able to fire up a map with no kingdoms on it and just watch the world descend into chaos.  Adventurers and heroes fighting vainly to hold back the tide of evil.  Bandits spawning new camps where there is no order.  Big monsters eating the little ones, a food chain that the player starts at the bottom of.  In keeping with the story, part of the challenge needs to be fighting the world itself, pushing back the chaos and struggling to hold it back.  Not random so much as living and hostile, an adversary in itself.

Fudging the starting conditions so you start in a reasonably quiet place is a good idea and makes sense.  What idiot would set up a city in Ogre-infested territory.  After that though, all bets are off.

November 30, 2011 2:24:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Derek Paxton,

Quoting Fearzone, reply 37Admit it, you guys are really playing Skyrim.
 

  We were having our update meeting a few days ago and I was going around the table until I got to Paul, our Art Director, and I asked what he was working on.  His answer was "I'm trying to get my enchanting up to 100..."

  Needless to say, this had nothing to do with FE.

What?  There's no enchanting in Fallen Enchantress?  That sucks!  We'll still be able to make batwing cookies with our sovereign's Cooking skill tho right?

November 30, 2011 2:56:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Good things are always worth waiting for..............make us proud

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