Plagiarizing nnnils, or hedgie's Sedna orthodoxy overthrown!

Wait what? Talk about a sensationlist title...

#1 is exactly I've been doing while laned with Rooks for awhile. At least, Rooks I'm familiar with playing. The thing is I very rarely played with Rooks, really only kalel. Sometimes I'd use BotF or Diamond Pendent though.

#2 is pretty much the best build against other Sedna's... and I've always said dropping pounce and getting IG is the best thing to do against other Sednas \:

Although I get H4 and don't get IG3.

???you run up to the opponent, kill his monk

Does no one micro monks anymore? You don't leave your monk next to you unless you're fighting to prevent them from being hurt by collateral AoE damage anyway... And it's pretty trivial to move a monk back from people tunneling on them. Especially with high towers.

Basically, no one has ever come up with anything unique ever. Even my stuff was probably being done by someone else before me.

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#1 is exactly I've been doing while laned with Rooks for awhile. At least, Rooks I'm familiar with playing. The thing is I very rarely played with Rooks, really only kalel. Sometimes I'd use BotF or Diamond Pendent though.

Well, Rook is extremely fashionable in no-noobs PUG games. I cannot say there is a UB in the vast majority of games, but there definitely is a Rook. People seem to think Rook+Sed is a "gay combo", but DG players don't like reactive/defensive characters (especially with high towers) as a rule, so I just ignore them.

Rook + opposing Reg = hard decision, based on Reg skill. Generally speaking, I'm inclined to pick BotF in this case.

Tried going DP for MP builds -- the cooldowns are really nice, but I hate the unsafety of the build.

#2 is pretty much the best build against other Sedna's... and I've always said dropping pounce and getting IG is the best thing to do against other Sednas \:

Yes, indeed. Pacov plays now something similar (also a nnnils rip-off ), but he still takes Pounce I for extra interrupts. To my surprise, I did not find the absence of Pounce a serious problem. It is marginally inconvenient when contesting locks, but otherwise... pfffft... if you need an interrupt so much, get Sil 1 at 5 and postpone HW 2 to 6, ffs!

Does no one micro monks anymore?

Let's say I contest a flag vs UB w/ a monk. It's logical to suppose (and that's how it works practically, even with great micromanagers) that if his general is preoccupied on the opposite lane (and if he is not, my teammate is not doing his job), he won't be able to micro the UB monk every given moment. If he puts the healer back, well, it doesn't take a lot of skill to lure him with your own monk.

Basically, no one has ever come up with anything unique ever.

Yeah, I know. No delusions of grandeur, hehe I just happen to like bombastic titles.

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extra interrupts. To my surprise, I did not find the absence of Pounce a serious problem. It is marginally inconvenient when contesting locks, but otherwise... pfffft... if you need an interrupt so much, get Sil 1 at 5 and postpone HW 2 to 6, ffs!

Missing a lock interrupt can lead to a loss. I know that that may not be quite so true in high towers, but high towers are all about covering up player mistakes so it fits in with them.

Silence isn't even an interrupt, it just stalls for a few seconds. If you don't force them off the flag then they'll just lock it anyway. Not to mention getting it at level 5 is silly unless it's a 2v2 and you have an overlevel'd UB ready to get a kill in.

The reason Pounce is useless against other Sednas is:

1) You can't ever use it to interupt a heal due to the cast-times involved, and also Silence.

2) Pounce is terrible mana/damage compared to Heal. Along those lines, you typically won't be able to secure a kill against another Sedna, esp if that Sedna gets one point of IG.

3) IG is flat-out better because it gives you the ability to disengage at will unless they match your IG points.

Let's say I contest a flag vs UB w/ a monk. It's logical to suppose (and that's how it works practically, even with great micromanagers) that if his general is preoccupied on the opposite lane (and if he is not, my teammate is not doing his job), he won't be able to micro the UB monk every given moment. If he puts the healer back, well, it doesn't take a lot of skill to lure him with your own monk.

Key-bindings... I put monks on H. Hit H, right click a bit behind me, continue to fight and when I have a second I can click the monk back forward with a rectangular selection. It really isn't that hard to do or requires any sort of micromanagement beyond what would normally cost to use any sort of ability (and saying "I couldn't use Grasp on that Sedna, she was too fast! sure sounds silly doesn't it?"

On this subject... do people counter-healing dance at all?

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On this subject... do people counter-healing dance at all?

I do it, Nastyblade does it, probably the universal T1 guys do it. Other Sednas, not so much.

Key-bindings... I put monks on H. Hit H, right click a bit behind me, continue to fight and when I have a second I can click the monk back forward with a rectangular selection.

If the general chooses to attach both monks to the UB in my example, yes, he can micro them without much trouble. Otherwise, I fail to see the relevance -- H (0 by default) will select both monks in different lanes.

Missing a lock interrupt can lead to a loss.

Indeed. However, by the time the real portal game usually starts, you will have Pounce even with a no-Pounce build (10+).

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If the general chooses to attach both monks to the UB in my example, yes, he can micro them without much trouble. Otherwise, I fail to see the relevance -- H (0 by default) will select both monks in different lanes.

There is a pretty massive difference. Reattaching your own monk is trivial with a box selection in between ability or movement clicks. We're talking about a 2 second window at worst, and that means you're only very occasionally actually going to miss a monk heal (and that's assuming it even walks out of heal range in those two seconds).

Even if you forget to attach your UB's monk for a few seconds, and reattach it later it will still be better than having it die and having a new one walk over there.

Talking about executing a couple /movement/ orders as "much trouble" and forming strategies around abusing the lack of other people's capacity to do more than 10 actions a minute is not a valid thing to even really seriously discuss.

It's like saying "oh I have map awareness". Great, I'm glad you have something that pretty much every multiplayer genre ("actual" RTS, FPS, 4X, TBS, hell even World of Warcraft) require to even be sort of decent at a game. Saying that you have it makes it sound like you "used" to play zoomed in 500% to your main character like it's a side-scrolling Fighting game and you just recently stopped doing that.

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Talking about executing a couple /movement/ orders as "much trouble" and forming strategies around abusing the lack of other people's capacity to do more than 10 actions a minute is not a valid thing to even really seriously discuss.

Hedgie, really... Good luck microing your UB's monk perfectly while trying to hold a flag against a good aggressive player. Let's put it this way: nnnils can't do it, ppapanek can't do it, TSK-Rin can't do it, Shane can't do it. Not consistently, anyway. Are you going to claim you can? If it's true: it's kind of pointless to discuss a strategy based on a performance of a retired player, even if he, supposedly, can do things active players cannot.

And I'm not "forming strategies around it". Just being realistic. None of your monks attached to other DGs ever got butchered, because they are stupid, have a huge aggro range, a bad pathfinding routine, and require constant babysitting to survive more than 3 minutes vs experienced players?

I'm all for a good argument, don't get me wrong, but your point regarding monks microing is tangential to the main idea of the build.

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Double post.

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Triple post.

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Hmmm... Regulus takes out his arbalest - Snipe, Heaven's Wrath. "Tired of those monks."

Even with an absolutely best micro you cannot avoid this.

As for builds being new and never tested - it's impossible, because there were lots of silly players testing anything useless. However only at their level. My silliness is beyond theirs... Well maybe there were some, who also did that... Has anyone played a no items (not even locks, teleports or whatever), no favor item, no skills build with only citadel upgrades? I personally did and won some of those matches (were extremely challenging). A very nice build on rook, who is so slow and has a big sign on his back "TARGET ME". However most of the time it was too difficult, so I ended up getting favor item + citadel upgrades instead. I once even nearly won a game without anything at all (no citadel upgrades, items, favor item). Of course those were used against new/bad players. But it still was and was challenging.

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Has anyone played a no items (not even locks, teleports or whatever), no favor item, no skills build with only citadel upgrades? I personally did

After which, she wonders why is her win % so disproportionately low...

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Quoting OMG__IN1,

reply 10

Has anyone played a no items (not even locks, teleports or whatever), no favor item, no skills build with only citadel upgrades? I personally did

After which, she wonders why is her win % so disproportionately low...

But it was worth the fun!

(hopefully )

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I didn't say "your buddies' monk should never, ever die". Of course it's going to die and certain compositions (TB and Occulus in particular) it's going to happen a lot.

But you're not talking about killing enemy monks as a TB or an Occulus. You're talking about kill them as a Sedna, who has no ranged attack, and on high towers no less. The only thing a Sedna can do is run up to it and hit it, or use their own monks to hit them. Keeping monks out of harms way from "melee" dps should be trivial. It "is" trivial. Especially with UI mods that tell you when monks are being damaged (look up the minion one that does that, you can mod it so that it changes colors faster).

You can even select the monk by clicking the little circle. If you put top usually on your buddy, it's very easy to keep track of it taking damage...

How is it tangential?

The build plays like this: you run up to the opponent, kill his monk, AA him insolently, retreat, back to full health in seconds, run up to the opponent, etc

That's pretty much the focus of your build in the first place. And that sure sounds like forming strategies around it.

Finally, saying that it's unreasonable to expect players to do multiple things is hilarious. How does SC2 players manage to macro their base, move their blobs, queue upgrades and units, watch their minimap for flanks, pursue enemy scouts, and scout yourself... all at the same time? Against extremely competent and aggressive individuals.

Monks may be extremely aggressive and have a slow turn speed but that doesn't give you an excuse to be lazy.

[code]

local function GetMinionIndColor(minion)
		if minion == nil or IsDestroyed(minion) then return black end

		local hp = minion:GetHealth()
		if hp <= 0 then return black end

		local maxhp = minion:GetMaxHealth()
		if maxhp < 1 then return black end -- wtf

		local pctHealth = hp / maxhp

		if pctHealth > 0.666 then
			return green
		elseif pctHealth > 0.333 then
			return yellow
		else
			return red
		end
		
	end

[/code]

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or use their own monks to hit them.

Their behavior is such they always aggro if other monks hit them and give chase like crazy. Luring a monk into your towers' range = certain death. Luring him into your creep wave will result in him getting lost.

That's pretty much the focus of your build in the first place. And that sure sounds like forming strategies around it.

Grrrrr, I don't consider it mine, and it's the same build you use sometimes... And you conveniently leave out the fact that in 3v3 it's - surprise! - much easier to kill monks than in 2v2. The other team has simply too many factors to worry about.

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or use their own monks to hit them.

Their AI behavior is:

1) follow current movement/attack orders

2) attack things that attack them

3) attack anything within X range

If their behavior was to always aggro then minion builds would be hard-countered by your own couple of minions... you hit them once or twice and then run away through your own towers.

Grrrrr, I don't consider it mine, and it's the same build you use sometimes...

Semantics. The only reason this build is getting more popular recently and is getting so much praise for being "different" or whatever is because more people appear to be playing Sedna, and as I said before, IG > Pounce against other Sednas. I know Pacov has been playing her a bunch recently, and it sounds like nnils and you as well. When I was active, it was pretty uncommon for another Sedna to be in the game unless we were playing with restricted dg selection rules. Not to mention, speed helps in high towers because it means you can cower behind them faster, whereas normal towers people will just kill you in them.

Furthermore, I also don't run around "past" people killing their monks (although I certainly will do it given the chance early game). In fact, I actually intentionally /bait/ them by letting my monk wander into melee range, letting them switch to it and then running it way back. It keeps a couple hundred damage off me and lets me get in a few hits.

And you conveniently leave out the fact that in 3v3 it's - surprise! - much easier to kill monks than in 2v2. The other team has simply too many factors to worry about.

So you're telling me when your UB on the mana side gets attacked by two people they are focusing on killing his monk instead of him?

Well that's an interesting meta development.

Sure, monks die much quicker to collateral damage (TB, Occ, again) in 3s, people actually probably spend even less time actually bothering to auto-attack them (2v2 engagements you typically aren't going to sit there pounding on a monk).

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So you're telling me when your UB on the mana side gets attacked by two people they are focusing on killing his monk instead of him?

No, I'm not telling you this, and I believe your observational skills are sharp enough to notice you are the one who prefers to put a whole bunch of absolutely ridiculous statements into my mouth...

If their behavior was to always aggro

No. Again, don't try to make me sound ridiculous. It's just a dirty rhetorical trick, not much more, seriously My claim, in case you really did not understand it (which I doubt, it was not all that complex), was it's actually much easier for Sedna to exploit paragraph (3) by tagging them with her ranged minions.

Not to mention, speed helps in high towers because it means you can cower behind them faster, whereas normal towers people will just kill you in them.

You speak of normal towers setting like of paradise lost. It's not. And even if it were, 90% of skilled games now are high towers. One has to be realistic and to adjust one's strategy instead of clinging to the past "glories". Not that I disagree: yes, high towers provide higher failure tolerance, so the matches last longer. Naturally, reactive DGs (Rook, Sed) benefit more from high towers setting. On the other hand, normal towers favor over-aggressive players and stupid "ballsy" playstyle (aka Spit->right-click to finish off). A UB can solo like a goof, get some kills by tower-diving and never get punished for that. I'm not talking T1 UBs. Any mid UB can do that.

All in all, I'm not pro-normal towers and not anti-normal towers, I think it's just a very different kind of game. Not necessarily a better one, whatever the veterans may think.

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High towers are for gays.

Yes I said it... and by gays I mean people who are abnormally happy, not homosexual.

These abnormally happy people do not understand that high towers wreak havoc with certain DGs who require certain play styles. It is a disservice to the whole community.

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These abnormally happy people do not understand that high towers wreak havoc with certain DGs who require certain play styles. It is a disservice to the whole community.

The reverse of this principle is just as true. Your euphemism "certain DGs that require certain playstyles" = stupid hyper-aggressive pseudo-ballsy (pseudo, as it does not require any sort of courage -- it's perfectly safe to tower-dive on normal towers or to solo tower at level 5: we are talking here towers that do ~250 per shot vs towers that deal ~410 per shot to 1st lvl Sed with no armor) playstyles. Why these, and not the more conservative, restrained, defensive playstyles should be considered definitive, hmm?

NB: I play both normal and high towers gladly. No bias whatsoever.

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You see no problem, such as heal restoring armor mitigated life to a tower diver vs shield's armor unmitigated life when one setting gets you killed, and another gets you back to base with a kill?

How about playing a demigod that starts strong but becomes worthless as time goes on? So when sending some DG back to base in a 3on3, the enemy only as to have some other teammate walk over to your tower to protext you from pressing an advantage, because the other can hold a 2on1 by the tower early game.

Grrr...

You are wrong.

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get some kills by tower-diving and never get punished for that.

There are either two ways someone is tower-diving and not being punished:

A) someone is exploiting a timing window (some demigods have massive jumps in their capabilities compared to same-level demigods at some levels), combined with having both hp + mana flag so they are 1.15x a demigod anyway. This is typically known as "good play" and part of "good play" is knowing when someone else has an advantageous timing window and not falling into it. Even if they exploit that timing window, force a port, die but still manage to get a kill first, it can work out because then on the other side, they can 2v1, hard push for the tower, then one can port back to defend the opposite side.

no one supported the dying teammate for whatever reason - either good interrupts on the aggressor's teammates ("good play") or "poor play" on the victim's teammates (not having a port on hand or bad map awareness).

I suspect when someone is "tower diving" you're attempting to run away instead of fighting in the towers (or you overextended in the first place and you're being punished for it).

One has to be realistic and to adjust one's strategy

Demigod has extremely little strategy to adjust. There simply isn't enough depth to the skill builds and item selection. You do have to adjust "tactically" however. Such as focusing on levels over warscore and kills.

reactive DGs (Rook, Sed)

Umm... Rook is proactive. He's a lane pusher and he's the only demigod that can prepare for a major conflict 30 seconds before it happens. Second, I pretty sure Sedna gets punished in high towers? Although she does have 20 useful skills - more than a lot of other demigods - her basic bread and butter skills don't scale very well with stat inflation, and she can't deal with giants. The only skill points that do scale into artifact games are HW and Mag Presence.

She basically degrades into a buff-and-silence bot in the artifact stages of the game, and even those starts to slide off into irrelevance once people have multiple artifacts (Akshandor can crit-kill you before monks can heal you up, skills matter less once weapon damage starts going off the charts).

Really, out of all the demigods it's UB/Oak who benefits the most from high towers.

Maybe you don't typically play games that get to the artifact stages of the game but... I mean really? If you're playing High Towers and not even getting into artifacts then I have a hard time calling those 90% of games "skilled" - or at least "balanced".

There are some advantages to High Towers (I don't consider artificially prolonged games and higher fault tolerances advantages):

1- minion builds are extremely difficult to cheese with

2- ummmm... that's it? At least for things that don't directly derive from the two quoted exceptions above.

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I suspect when someone is "tower diving" you're attempting to run away instead of fighting in the towers (or you overextended in the first place and you're being punished for it).

Oh, come on, hedgie. I play this game long enough to grasp the basics. I know you are an arrogant prick, and that's okay -- me as well. But you really presume too much.

An interesting note: I feel the more time passes since you've last played DG, the more pretentious and self-serious you become Still a lot of non-trivial ideas in your posts, but the bombast is sometimes totally overwhelming.

There simply isn't enough depth to the skill builds and item selection.

Let me guess... As opposed to DoW, right? Because DotA-likes, as a rule, are quite "shallow" (by your high standards, hehe).

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Demigod probably has 'slightly' more per-character strategy with regards to other DotA-style games, because it has much larger skill trees. The problem is that for nearly every character, that skill tree basically devolves into 2-3 different "builds" with maybe a few points people swap levels with for personal preference. Although that's "one more" than 1-2 that you usually get, it's not a huge step up.

The problem is that other DotA games have jungling, which has a huge strategy element to it, and also has a much more interesting item and consumable mechanics, which enable "actually" more diverse builds. 3 skills * 3 item builds == 9 options. 2 skill * 5 item builds == 10 options.

hedgie's Sedna orthodoxy overthrown!

Don't act like riling me up wasn't isn't exactly what you were trying to do. You've brought a lot of crap here onto the forums (eg, 'don't play with so and so he's a jerk!' threads, among other things), and I know that's what you were doing again here. If you want me off the forums maybe you should say that I'm simply not welcome here? That is what you're saying right?

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If you want me off the forums maybe you should say that I'm simply not welcome here? That is what you're saying right?

Are you drunk? Stoned? I cannot believe a sober human being can make up a conspiracy theory like this in a blink of an eye. Who am I to tell you that you are not welcome here or that I want you off the forums? You have every right to post whatever you want wherever you want, especially if the subject mentions you specifically.

I consider you my teacher and have a ton of respect for your analytic skills. Doesn't mean I always have to agree with your viewpoint -- after all, I have my own brains. The same is true regarding the unpleasant attitude you flaunt in your recent posts.

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Quoting OMG__IN1,

reply 10

After which, she wonders why is her win % so disproportionately low...

I didn't play so many to affect it much. Less than 50 overall and most of them were on gameranger...Usually 1v1 matches.

Quoting Plaguewraith,

reply 11

But it was worth the fun!

(hopefully )

Yes it was. It's far more interesting to lose a game like that, than playing normally and winning easily.

Quoting LORD-ORION,

reply 16

High towers are for gays.

Yes I said it... and by gays I mean people who are abnormally happy, not homosexual.

These abnormally happy people do not understand that high towers wreak havoc with certain DGs who require certain play styles. It is a disservice to the whole community.

I like high towers...

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Nt

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Quoting awuffleablehedgie,

reply 3

Missing a lock interrupt can lead to a loss. I know that that may not be quite so true in high towers, but high towers are all about covering up player mistakes so it fits in with them.

I sooo agree. However in high lvl games high towers can force long and interesting games and give weaker characters more time to keep up with the tier 1s. But I still do prefer the normal settings.

Quoting OMG__IN1,

reply 6

nnnils can't do it, ppapanek can't do it, TSK-Rin can't do it, Shane can't do it. Not consistently, anyway. Are you going to claim you can? If it's true: it's kind of pointless to discuss a strategy based on a performance of a retired player, even if he, supposedly, can do things active players cannot.

They are just lazy. And it makes me really mad when they are being lazy on me, but oh well at least they do it if it is game deciding in high lvl games. For instance, in one game i could only withstand shane's full minion build oak as rook with a nice bishop micro by nnnils all game. Then the next game i pretty much have no monk at all, or a monk that insta dies all game. I never seen ppapanek really monk fail. rin barely plays, and shane is probably just lazy in "pug" games.

I never got to really see hedgie in action. He always trolled me, and i wasn't at the high lvl when he was active to really notice.

Quoting Darkliath,

reply 9

I once even nearly won a game without anything at all (no citadel upgrades, items, favor item)

I've tried it a lot of times lol. Too hard lol.

Quoting OMG__IN1,

reply 15

90% of skilled games now are high towers

ehm can I see one single replay of that? unless everyone behind my back plays high towers when i'm not there all high skilled players I know off despise them. And the few that don't care about them only play them with less skilled players, which results in a non-high lvl game

Quoting LORD-ORION,

reply 16

High towers are for gays.

Yes I said it... and by gays I mean people who are abnormally happy, not homosexual.

These abnormally happy people do not understand that high towers wreak havoc with certain DGs who require certain play styles. It is a disservice to the whole community.

.

post of the week lol

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The Forums Are Now Closed!

The content will remain as a historical reference, thank you.

Plagiarizing nnnils, or hedgie's Sedna orthodoxy overthrown!

Dlarimit