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Carmack says Direct3D is better than OpenGL

By on March 11, 2011 11:56:54 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock ForumsExternal Link

This isn't entirely a surprise considering his recent history but heh.

Speaking to bit-tech for a forthcoming Custom PC feature about the future of OpenGL in PC gaming, Carmack said 'I actually think that Direct3D is a rather better API today.' He also added that 'Microsoft had the courage to continue making significant incompatible changes to improve the API, while OpenGL has been held back by compatibility concerns. Direct3D handles multi-threading better, and newer versions manage state better.'

If only more devs would go higher than dx9 so I could actually friggin alt tab

+11 Karma | 28 Replies
March 11, 2011 12:11:16 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

As long as we have to support XP, we have to support DirectX9.  And while it's possible to create an engine that can be initialized with DirectX9 or higher, it's a LOT of work, which means more cost to develop.  

March 11, 2011 1:09:42 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I'm still on XP and have no reason to upgrade until I build a new PC which will probably be another year or two.  At that point I'll put on Windows 7 (or 8 if it's out and stable).

March 11, 2011 1:23:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Wait for Skynet to go online.  It will be free and will run everything for you

March 11, 2011 1:29:26 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting CariElf,
As long as we have to support XP, we have to support DirectX9.  And while it's possible to create an engine that can be initialized with DirectX9 or higher, it's a LOT of work, which means more cost to develop.  

Naturally.  I'm not dissing Stardock or anyone else with limited resources, I'm just wishing DX9 would go away.  I thought D3D9Ex was also supposed to handle alt tabbing better, but if I had to guess it still doesn't (unless nobody is using it.)

March 11, 2011 5:32:04 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I believe that D3D9Ex is only supported on Vista or higher, which is why we didn't use it for Elemental.

March 11, 2011 5:35:45 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Also, I didn't think that you were dissing Stardock or anyone else, I'm just saying why more developers aren't leaving DirectX 9 behind.

March 11, 2011 5:44:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

None of the consoles support DX10+ and the PC market is heavily fragmented between DX9 and DX10. Cull those numbers further with type of game and genre and you have a product that will be tough to pitch to the accountants.

 

 

March 11, 2011 6:35:47 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Since consoles make up for the biggest platform big games are published on, why would developers work on a dx that only runs on high end PCs?

March 11, 2011 7:13:47 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting CariElf,
I believe that D3D9Ex is only supported on Vista or higher, which is why we didn't use it for Elemental.

I was just mentioning it as (yes, it only runs on Vista and 7) I'd think it wouldn't need two seperate renderers, or if it did the work to implement it should be much smaller.

March 11, 2011 7:39:06 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting coreimpulse,
Since consoles make up for the biggest platform big games are published on, why would developers work on a dx that only runs on high end PCs?

Because Vista/7 and DX10+ cards make up a significant chunk of the market now, and it's only growing.  They won't be able to ignore it forever.  I expect Bioware is not the only one who's moving up this year, though we'll have to wait and see.

March 11, 2011 9:07:22 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I should also mention once Windows 8 comes out it's highly likely devs will start dropping support for XP entirely.

March 12, 2011 4:08:09 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

[quote who="Savyg" comment="10"]

Because Vista/7 and DX10+ cards make up a significant chunk of the market now, and it's only growing.

[/quote]

 

I thought I'd research this claim.  As far as us gamers go, I feel the monthly Steam hardware survey is representative of current computer configurations.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Sure enough, right there in the middle of the top row are some numbers that strongly support your claim: 56% of the Steam respondents are using DX10 (which also implies Win7/Vista).  Go, go, DX10!

March 12, 2011 8:29:05 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I gather Steams hardware survey doesn't match up with the numbers Impulse gathers on system specs.  It's as good an info source as any though, since it's the only publicly available one.

March 12, 2011 12:39:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GG_Crew,

Sure enough, right there in the middle of the top row are some numbers that strongly support your claim: 56% of the Steam respondents are using DX10 (which also implies Win7/Vista).  Go, go, DX10!

 

I don't think that is a good representation of the market. You're not getting the entirety of Steam Users in that survey, and less than half the people I know who frequently play PC games want anything to do with Steam.

If you drew a picture, and I told you I could sell it for $1m if you used every color, $5m if you left out green and red, or $10m if you only used black and white; what would your color palette be? What would most people choose?

I would be surprised if we saw developers abandon dx9 until the next generation of consoles are released. By that time, enough PC users will have upgraded, and multi-platform games will be able to scale easier.

 

That will also mean that we [PC Gamers] will be on dx14 by then.

March 12, 2011 1:08:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Sure enough, right there in the middle of the top row are some numbers that strongly support your claim: 56% of the Steam respondents are using DX10 (which also implies Win7/Vista).

Uh... 56% is a very bad number.  You're talking about throwing away half your potential market by developing for DX10 exclusively.  You'd have to double your sales with the remaining market in order for this to pay off, which is highly unlikely.

This is really straightforward: in order for it to be worthwhile developing a DX10 game, the increase in sales from the higher-quality product must exceed the lost sales from people whose systems cannot run the game.  For most games, that probably means DX10 won't be viable until market penetration gets up into the high 80's.

When it happens, it's going to be all at once, as the remaining DX9 holdout users upgrade en-mass.  Until developers see it as a worthwhile investment, however, it's really easy to remain a DX9 holdout and so the transition is going to be delayed.

You're not getting the entirety of Steam Users in that survey, and less than half the people I know who frequently play PC games want anything to do with Steam.

I doubt these are significant sampling biases.  I see no reason to believe that the group of people who use Steam and respond to surveys have substantially different system specs than the general gaming population. 

 

Anyways, as has already been mentioned the consoles are what form the upper bounds of graphical support.  If DX10 really was enough of a breakthrough to be worth it, we'd be seeing console gamers converting en-mass to the superior PC market.  This isn't happening; the consoles are "good enough" for most gamers, and developers are happy to oblige with graphcis that are "good enough".

March 12, 2011 1:28:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The way I see it, developers will start making for DX11 when new consoles come out and use that. Then it will become the norm that games use that, and people who don't have compatible hardware or OS will have to upgrade.

 

Also, it's not 56% using 10. You guys suck at reading graphs. There's 78.72% using DX10 or higher, with only 16.04% using DX9.

That means they'd have to increase sales by about 20% to make it worth it. That's still a lot, and it's not counting the additional production costs involved in making the higher-level graphics, just the loss from excluding part of the market.

March 12, 2011 4:46:19 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Darvin3,

Uh... 56% is a very bad number.  You're talking about throwing away half your potential market by developing for DX10 exclusively.  You'd have to double your sales with the remaining market in order for this to pay off, which is highly unlikely.

Who said exclusively?  I can assure you very few of these lack in DX9 support.  (Just Cause 2 being the only one that matters that does.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_11_support

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_10_support

March 13, 2011 9:37:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The downside of the best gamingsystem there is, having games developed to run on outdated crap!

 

Like Stardock deciding on Shader Model 2.0(!) when every gamer worth his salt got ATLEST Shader Model 3.0!   Myself I got a GTX 570 which supports Shader Model 5.0. (Good luck with seeing any SM 5.0 effects for a few years though!)

Oh yeah, that reminds me. Why haven't there been a video by Stardock that shows off Shader Model 4.0 ? (which they said Elemental would support)

 

That also reminds me of brad saying that support for DirectX 11 has to wait until 2015 (which is when enough people will have FINALLY upgraded to DirectX 11!)

 

 

About the Steam surveys, they say it's optional but I can't find where to opt-in. I need to get in so the % for Win7 64bit, GTX 570 and 4GB RAM incrreases. The 2nd most popular graphics chipset is 8800    It's my previous chipset though so I believe those who have it will upgrade soon (they better!)

March 13, 2011 4:02:45 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I asked Steam support about it and he said the survey only actually runs once a year, which would be really weird.

Would explain why the numbers rarely change though.

March 14, 2011 6:12:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

But the numbers are updated every MONTH!

March 14, 2011 1:17:15 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

And yet, inexplicably for several months it's said 56% for DX10 users.

I think it used to be monthly but they changed it.

March 15, 2011 5:20:02 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I know at least one of my games that can switch up to DX10 or higher, and I have a video card which is capable.  What I don't have is the operating system which supports the API.  Given the price of buying a new operating system, and the cost of the extra stick of RAM I will need to avoid degrading performance, it doesn't make any sense to upgrade at this time.

March 16, 2011 12:05:10 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Making the

Quoting Darvin3,


Uh... 56% is a very bad number.  You're talking about throwing away half your potential market by developing for DX10 exclusively.  You'd have to double your sales with the remaining market in order for this to pay off, which is highly unlikely.

This is really straightforward: in order for it to be worthwhile developing a DX10 game, the increase in sales from the higher-quality product must exceed the lost sales from people whose systems cannot run the game.  For most games, that probably means DX10 won't be viable until market penetration gets up into the high 80's.

When it happens, it's going to be all at once, as the remaining DX9 holdout users upgrade en-mass.  Until developers see it as a worthwhile investment, however, it's really easy to remain a DX9 holdout and so the transition is going to be delayed.

However, the graphics cards that support DX10 are less fragmented and therefore cheaper to  support. And it particularly makes sense to more on when the developer is creating a new engine anyways (say to support 64-bits and/or multithreading) and they plan on using it for some time to come. If they still feel enough people use DX9 to be worth supporting, the DX11 API provides the means to be compable with it (though they would have to dump Windows XP users).

March 16, 2011 2:39:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Its pretty safe to write off the DX9 market. If they haven't upgraded to 7/vista and a DX11/10 card by now then like shit you are going to be able to sell a game to them. Battlefield 3 will pave the way.

March 17, 2011 1:43:36 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting kentsfield,
Its pretty safe to write off the DX9 market. If they haven't upgraded to 7/vista and a DX11/10 card by now then like shit you are going to be able to sell a game to them. Battlefield 3 will pave the way.

Stardock makes games on a limited budget with nowhere near the graphical fidelity of your average FPS.  If Stardock were to write off the DX9 market they'd probably die.

Valve has yet to make a DX10 game, and they have practically unlimited resources.

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