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Elemental: No Copy Protection, Activation, LAN and more

By on August 15, 2010 2:31:13 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

There’s been a lot of discussion on these kinds of topics on recent games and I thought I’d give you our perspective on it.

No Copy Protection

Elemental, out of the box, like all of Stardock’s other games, has no copy protection whatsoever.  However, you obviously need Internet access to get updates.  But then, why should this be necessary?

Because Elemental, unlike our previous games, has really been designed to be a game that people can play for decades, this is something that has concerned us. Because we want to encourage people to have the latest version but at the same time, we are aware that some people are worried that 10 years from now, they won’t be able to get the “better” version.

So here is what we’re going to start doing on our developed titles: We’re going to start making archival DVD versions of the game that can be sent to customers.  We already do this with Object Desktop (our most popular non-game product).  This archival version would have no copy protection whatsoever. It would just be a DVD you can put into your machine.

So starting in October, what we will do is make archival DVD editions of our games starting with Galactic Civilizations II: Ultimate Edition and Elemental.  Roughly every year or so, if there have been updates, we’ll create a new archival version of the game that people can have sent to them (it’ll just be a DVD).

LAN Games

There’s been a lot of questions of how someone would play Elemental on their LAN with their friends.  Here’s my suggested way to do it with minimum hassle.

#1 You’ll need to install Impulse on the machines that will be playing the game. But that’s all. Just install and go to step 2.

#2 Go to http://anywhere.impulsedriven.com which is the web interface to Impulse. From here, you would download the web package of Elemental. As long as Impulse is installed on the machine, you can install the game.

#3 When you install, type in your serial #. If it’s on a LAN, just use your single DVD key, Impulse::Reactor’s GOO uses smart activation (i.e. it doesn’t have a “activation limit” type system) so you can just install it on the various machines on your LAN.

#4 When your friends come over to play, they will need, once in the game, to logon with their own accounts (so they or someone will have to provide them with a serial # to attach to their account but they can use it at your LAN in game).  This is because on day 0, the data from the game is handled by our servers (this way, when we update the game data for balancing players don’t have to update their game which would be a real hassle for LAN players).  Eventually we plan to release custom servers so that players can make their own stuff but we won’t have that ready at release.

+892 Karma | 434 Replies
August 15, 2010 7:14:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 

where is hotseat when you need it

 

 

Alter this thread's title to say "Minimal Copy Protection",

 

but there is no copy protection you can take your cd and install in on 10pcs if you want

 

August 15, 2010 7:17:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Archival DVDs?

Yep, that's the last straw.

The last tasty, tasty straw; I have ALWAYS wanted this option.

You have my support FOREVER.

Everything Stardock does is amazing, as far as I am concerned.

August 15, 2010 7:18:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Nesrie,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 48If you want to update the game digitally, you have Impulse to do that.

If you want a physical DVD that does not require Internet access to play (single player obviously) we will ship one too you (user would pay nominal shipping cost of the DVD).




Is this what you mean by  making updated DVD archives available. We are to pay this nominal fee to keep an updated copy? Why not release the patches or the the image to users digitally?

As for LAN, it's not really a LAN connection if it needs to be online in any capacity.

The idea is to provide an option for people who don't have easy access to the Internet. If they have good Internet access they would use Impulse to download.

As for LAN, I don't want to get into semantics here. I'm providing instructions on how people would play on their LAN.  I think our policy is pretty flexible here. It's been many years since I've been on a LAN that didn't have a net connection.  The game is a client/server game. The servers are on the Internet. 

August 15, 2010 7:19:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This is one of the many reasons why I love stardock, and why I got demigod (game itself didn't interest me) and the collectors edition for Elemental. 

August 15, 2010 7:19:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I miss the good old days when you could just click "create game", then have someone else type your IP and join your game. None of this "master server" crap.

If it is a client/server game, at least let us set up our own servers from the get-go.

August 15, 2010 7:28:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Almost speechless at the level of support I am seeing from Stardock.

 

 

 

Strange question, but just to make sure, I purchased 2 copies, (1 limited, 1 regular)  Can I setup two computers using 1 account for multi-player?

2 computers

2 licenses

1 account ?

 

 

August 15, 2010 7:30:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm more than happy to pay something reasonable for an archival DVD.  People who don't wish to pay for media and shipping may simply not value an archival CD.

So...when I try to update both my desktop and my laptop, using the same CD code and the same Impulse account, Impulse will allow that?

August 15, 2010 7:34:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
As for LAN, I don't want to get into semantics here. I'm providing instructions on how people would play on their LAN.  I think our policy is pretty flexible here. It's been many years since I've been on a LAN that didn't have a net connection.  The game is a client/server game. The servers are on the Internet. 
It's not really semantics. It's right there in the abbreviation; Local Area Network.

If you require internet access of any kind, there's really no LAN support whatsoever. Servers doesn't have to be on the internet, they can be a part of a local area network. And I have been on many LANs without (stable) connection to the internet, especially when you're having a LAN where you may simply not be able to have all computers hooked up at the same time.

Quoting Polynomial,
I was asking a question. But not towards you. I'm sorry, I should have stated earlier on that I am always wrong and you are always right.
I am glad we are in agreeance.

August 15, 2010 7:40:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In previous Impulse games, you could make an "archived" copy. It was basically a copy of your current install, made into install files.

Is there a reason you're not mentioning this? I for one loved that function in impulse, and I would hate for it to go away.

August 15, 2010 7:45:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting KalGerek,

So...when I try to update both my desktop and my laptop, using the same CD code and the same Impulse account, Impulse will allow that?

Yep.

August 15, 2010 7:48:22 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
In previous Impulse games, you could make an "archived" copy. It was basically a copy of your current install, made into install files.

Is there a reason you're not mentioning this? I for one loved that function in impulse, and I would hate for it to go away.
[/quote]

It sounds like they aren't going to allow that or maybe they would. All I want is a way to back-up my game without having to waste resources, money and shipping stuff that could just as easily be burned by me.

 

[quote who="Luckmann" reply="58" id="2714124"]

If you require internet access of any kind, there's really no LAN support whatsoever. Servers doesn't have to be on the internet, they can be a part of a local area network. And I have been on many LANs without (stable) connection to the internet, especially when you're having a LAN where you may simply not be able to have all computers hooked up at the same time.

This. Just call it what it is, some sort of quasi online multiplayer thing that vaguely resembles what we used to call LAN.

 

Quoting GGLucas,
I miss the good old days when you could just click "create game", then have someone else type your IP and join your game. None of this "master server" crap.

If it is a client/server game, at least let us set up our own servers from the get-go.

Those were great days. I love companies that still offer this. These are also the games you can play on release day when companies figure out they under prepared for server loads.

August 15, 2010 8:11:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting StevenAus,

Alter this thread's title to say "Minimal Copy Protection", and I think the majority of people would not have any problem with it.   Simple as that.

 

I agree with StevenAus. It's not the information in this thread that bothers people but the way that it's presented. It comes across as doublespeak.

 

"LAN Games" = No LAN support. You must be connected to the internet at all times for multiplayer.

"No Copy Protection" = Serial key. Only one player per key.

August 15, 2010 8:13:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't know that I'll ever want or need to use it but I do like that you're going to start offering up to date physical copies of the game. I may even get a "Year 1" copy just to put in with my Limited Edition. Depending on how much the shipping charge is to Australia for a single DVD.

Really don't care about the quibbling over LAN/not-LAN junk. If you really want to play it multiplayer with people in the same room you just need to plan accordingly, like you do with any other game. If everyone needs access to the internet to play it then make sure they have access or make alternate play plans. Simple?

At least nobody has mentioned Steam yet!

August 15, 2010 8:14:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
In previous Impulse games, you could make an "archived" copy. It was basically a copy of your current install, made into install files.

Is there a reason you're not mentioning this? I for one loved that function in impulse, and I would hate for it to go away.

Since there is no copy prot lurking somewhere in a hidden folder, you can just copy the files no backup program needed.

Quoting GGLucas,
I miss the good old days when you could just click "create game", then have someone else type your IP and join your game. None of this "master server" crap.

If it is a client/server game, at least let us set up our own servers from the get-go.

You cant really expect devs today making a multiplayer system that works best for internet play and a different one for LAN. The majority plays online so master/server crap it is. Considering LAN has become a exotic thing very few customers ever use, a login over the internet followed by full LAN support is as good as it gets today. Good luck trying to get one of those always online games running on a few dozen comps at a LAN.

August 15, 2010 8:25:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You cant really expect devs today making a multiplayer system that works best for internet play and a different one for LAN.

 

They don't have to. Like I said just release the server binaries and we can all set up our own servers on LANs and all will be well. As it is the game will not include any LAN support at release, which makes me sad.

August 15, 2010 8:39:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Luckmann,

It's not really semantics. It's right there in the abbreviation; Local Area Network.
If you require internet access of any kind, there's really no LAN support whatsoever. Servers doesn't have to be on the internet, they can be a part of a local area network. And I have been on many LANs without (stable) connection to the internet, especially when you're having a LAN where you may simply not be able to have all computers hooked up at the same time.

Far as I can tell, this is exactly the same as Starcraft 2's system. That system doesn't bother me a whole lot, so I don't mind this one either.

But, it will be interesting to see if the people who blew up about it in Starcraft 2 react the same way now that it's a Stardock game.

August 15, 2010 8:41:33 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Nymeros,


You cant really expect devs today making a multiplayer system that works best for internet play and a different one for LAN. The majority plays online so master/server crap it is. Considering LAN has become a exotic thing very few customers ever use, a login over the internet followed by full LAN support is as good as it gets today. Good luck trying to get one of those always online games running on a few dozen comps at a LAN.

I think the only expectation is that if someone says there is LAN support in the game, that there be LAN support in the game. No one is telling them to make that claim, we're just questioning the validity of that claim since LAN that requires the internet to work, is not actually LAN.

August 15, 2010 8:53:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I just wanted to log in and say thank you for the archival DVD releases!  The only thing better than playing games like GalCiv 1+2 or Elemental is knowing I'll still be able to play them in fifteen years with all the updates.  Is there any way Ironclad could be convinced to sign up for this feature too? 

August 15, 2010 8:58:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting abomination5,

Quoting StevenAus, reply 49
Alter this thread's title to say "Minimal Copy Protection", and I think the majority of people would not have any problem with it.   Simple as that.

I agree with StevenAus. It's not the information in this thread that bothers people but the way that it's presented. It comes across as doublespeak.

"LAN Games" = No LAN support. You must be connected to the internet at all times for multiplayer.

"No Copy Protection" = Serial key. Only one player per key.

I'm going to have to give up on this discussion in a sec since seeing this kind of attitude boils my blood.

 

First, 99.9% of users of this game are going to play it single player only. It is a turn based strategy game designed for single player. 

Second, we are talking about COPY PROTECTION.  An archival DVD that has absolutely no requirement for Internet access to play, no DVD in the drive requirement, no requirement to enter in a serial number, no DVD key requirement, I think fits, by any reasonable expectation, the definition of no copy protection. 

That addresses our position on what NO COPY PROTECTION MEANS.  There is nothing stopping some dishonest person from taking that archival DVD, making a zillion copies and giving it out to all their friends to play the single player game -- the game that 99.9% of users would actually want to play.  

So you'll have to excuse me if I find it a little obnoxious that someone would consider the above not to be zero copy protection.

Now, with regards to LAN play.  Again, the key benefit we are discussing is that someone with ONE copy of the game can go and put it on all of their machines. As someone who has put on a lot of LAN parties over the years and had to deal with games that barfed on trying to install a game onto a bunch of machines at once to have a LAN party, the system in Elemental is something that I think most reasonable people who put on LAN parties can appreciate.  Each person who plays the game will still need to have a serial #. Why? Because we do expect people who play our game to buy it.  If your expectation was that your ONE copy of the game would allow 15 of your friends to play together without any of them having  bought the game then I'm sorry but those are not expectations we can meet.  However, your expectations also do not constitute some form of "copy protection" any more than having to logon on this forum with an account to post in this discussion constitutes copy protection.

 

August 15, 2010 9:02:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GGLucas,




You cant really expect devs today making a multiplayer system that works best for internet play and a different one for LAN.





 

They don't have to. Like I said just release the server binaries and we can all set up our own servers on LANs and all will be well. As it is the game will not include any LAN support at release, which makes me sad.

It doesn't have your opinion of what LAN support should be. 

I could see a person living in a more remote location that doesn't have access to or cannot afford reliable internet, but I find it difficult to believe there are very many with multiple machines in the same household who cannot afford decent internet too.  And even if it is a LAN party get together I cannot really remember the last time I was in a group that didn't have internet access--maybe back when I did some Doom 1 co-op LAN gaming.

August 15, 2010 9:16:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting killer105,

It doesn't have your opinion of what LAN support should be. 

I could see a person living in a more remote location that doesn't have access to or cannot afford reliable internet, but I find it difficult to believe there are very many with multiple machines in the same household who cannot afford decent internet too. 

Technically (and historically), "LAN play" means you need a LAN to play. If I have a LAN, I can play Starcraft 1 with my friends. I can't play Starcraft 2, and I can't play Elemental with just a LAN. The LAN is actually incidental, what I really need is the Internet.

This is a departure from Sins of a Solar Empire, which had a very player-friendly option to have two players on LAN with only one serial number. Shame that's gone, it was really a nice way to have a friend try a game when they pop by.

August 15, 2010 9:18:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Frogboy,

Sorry that you have become aggrivated over some of the posts here.

I agree that the single player portion of the game has no copy protection. I was only disagreeing with respect to the multiplayer component. You need a unique serial key to play multiplayer. It was never my expectation that I would be able to host an entire LAN party on one copy of the game(although I didn't rule it out because many other games have offered this option) but your initial post seemed to imply (to me) that this was not a form of copy protection. The copy protection method you are using is completely reasonable to me. I just wouldn't call it "no copy protection." That was my only (relatively small) gripe.

August 15, 2010 9:18:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I could see a person living in a more remote location that doesn't have access to or cannot afford reliable internet, but I find it difficult to believe there are very many with multiple machines in the same household who cannot afford decent internet too.

Just because you find it difficult to believe does not mean it doesn't happen. LAN support is LAN support, there's no ambiguity. If I have a LAN (with or without internet, it doesn't matter), it should work. If it doesn't, then LAN by itself is not supported.

 

If your expectation was that your ONE copy of the game would allow 15 of your friends to play together without any of them having  bought the game then I'm sorry but those are not expectations we can meet. 

 

Uh-huh. Just like it's COMPLETELY unacceptable to buy a CD and listen to it with friends, or buy a film on DVD and watch it together. CLEARLY everyone should buy their own copy of the Settlers of Catan before they come over to play it. They're all copyright infringement!!oneone Games are not a special kind of media and they should not have a special kind of rules. I am not trying to offend anyone, but I think this should be very much included as a gamer's right. I love buying good games from good studios and make sure they continue to make greatness, but I lose interest very quickly if I can't sit down with a bunch of friends and have a blast. And no matter what you say, they are not as interested in the game and probably wouldn't ever play it by themselves. I'm not going to tell 7 other people to spend quite a bit of money on something they're only going to play at my house. Hell, they'd tell me I was insane and we'd go back to playing some other game (like Sins) which we could play.

 

Regardless, there have been posts on this forum where you stated we would be able to host our own servers, and even if you disagree with my opinion about LANs, it would be a bummer if you went back on that.

 

 

 

August 15, 2010 9:21:58 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Tridus,



Quoting killer105,
reply 70

It doesn't have your opinion of what LAN support should be. 

I could see a person living in a more remote location that doesn't have access to or cannot afford reliable internet, but I find it difficult to believe there are very many with multiple machines in the same household who cannot afford decent internet too. 


Technically (and historically), "LAN play" means you need a LAN to play. If I have a LAN, I can play Starcraft 1 with my friends. I can't play Starcraft 2, and I can't play Elemental with just a LAN. The LAN is actually incidental, what I really need is the Internet.

This is a departure from Sins of a Solar Empire, which had a very player-friendly option to have two players on LAN with only one serial number. Shame that's gone, it was really a nice way to have a friend try a game when they pop by.

Maybe they're not that popular anymore, but LAN parties didn't always have internet access either. The chances of my actually using LAN seems unlikely, although when the holiday roles around and visitors stop by, maybe. In any event, not all LAN parties bother with internet, especially if the number is big and the locations doesn't have it. You just needed some space for a lot of computers, electricity and a bunch of cords. I guess now it would be wifi maybe and fewer cords.

Without software copy protection and no need for a serial key for single player box edition (gotta use it for updates), it's almost DRM free. I think it's fair to make a distinction between a game like Kudos, World of Goo, machinarium and some others that are 100% DRM free. No serials, no disc checks, openly available updates. I think Civ IV is DRM free now too, including updates and multiplayer, but you need a login for the matchmaking service which you dont' have to use because there is Direct IP too.

 

August 15, 2010 9:24:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tridus,


Technically (and historically), "LAN play" means you need a LAN to play. If I have a LAN, I can play Starcraft 1 with my friends. I can't play Starcraft 2, and I can't play Elemental with just a LAN. The LAN is actually incidental, what I really need is the Internet.

This is a departure from Sins of a Solar Empire, which had a very player-friendly option to have two players on LAN with only one serial number. Shame that's gone, it was really a nice way to have a friend try a game when they pop by.

 

I agree that historically it was without internet.  However, it has been quite some time since I've done a LAN party (I'm one of the few nerds who still does them, at least around here) that doesn't have internet.  I just don't see that particular tidbit impacting too many folks these days. 

As for wanting everyone to have their own copy... that really isn't too much to ask.  With the exception of SC1 and Diablo's "spawn" copies it is almost akin to the mentality of a pirate to expect everyone to play with just one copy.  That last part is, however, just my opinion.

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