Steam Horror Story

Return of the Subscriber Agreement

By Ariolander on December 22, 2009 3:58:41 AM from

I have been a big fan of Steam and before this event and if I had an option between Steam, D2D, or Impulse I would almost have always have sided with Steam but after my most recent experience with them it is only now I realize how by using Steam I had trapped myself in a corner.

Earlier this week I had purchased a game that was on sale as an early gift for a family member to hold him off till his real one arrived late for Christmas. I didn't know it at the time but because of some glitch in Steam's systems the gifting failed but my CC was still charged and I was none the wiser. Since I told my brother all about the game, hyped him up, got him excited, but he never received it he ended up buying it for himself. I saw him playing it on Steam and thought all was well but after asking him how he liked my gift only to get a puzzled look in return.

Because of the way Steam works if you buy multiple copies of a game Steam simply eats your money for the 2nd copy and you get nothing instead of crediting your account or giving you an extra serial. I didn't want that to happen so as soon as I learned about this I immediately contacted steam support for a refund. The first time I got a forum response because apparently their gift system fails often and resending is a common occurence.

Took another support request for them to realize the issue was not in the fact I couldn't send but the fact I couldn't send and because of that he already owns the game I wanted to give him to which the customer service guy replied that they can't give me a refund or even credit cause according to their Subscriber Agreement any money I give them is theirs and they don't have to give me a return because I am not in the European Union which has laws that require a 30 day grace period.

So I am left in an odd situation. I paid for a game to be given to my brother, they failed to deliver my game, and now they are refusing to return my money either. Upon looking at the forums I found this wasn't the first time this has happened either and when one guy tried to contact his credit card company for a refund they banned his account for "fraud" and disabled access to over $500 in games.

I didn't want to risk loosing some +$300 games I had tied to my account so I was saving my credit card company as a last resort. It took no less than 6 support messages exchanged to get my refund where they tried my patience continually pointing to how their Subscriber Agreement makes it OK that they can take my money, not deliever a product, and ban me if I protest.

I tried to remain polite through the entire process but they were totally unresponsive and the sheer frustration that some stupid EULA makes it ok to commit what in any other industry would be fraud infurtiated me. By the 6th message I had given up and laid down basically said that if they did not refund me for the product they failed to deliver I would file a complaint with the BBB, my local newspaper, and contact my credit card company. My $300 in games be damned I as gonna do it and was already researching Small Claims Court as a solution if they took my games away after my CC company reversed the charges.

I eventually got my money back but only after threatening them and the final line of my message reading:
"The money means nothing to me but at this point it is a matter of principle. What part of YOU RUINED CHRISTMAS don't you understand?"
I was pretty worked up now that I looked back at it. After typing this I had to wipe tears of frustration out of my eyes before finally clicking send.

Even after I got my money back it seems they just had to have the last laugh. They emailed me "Please note in the future that Steam purchases, per the Steam Subscriber Agreement, are not refundable - this refund was issued as a one-time customer service gesture." and just had to rub that stupid Subscriber Agreement into my face one last time.

I find it appalling that a company could have such utter contempt against their customers after they have their money locked in. Just because you are online, it is digital distribution, and we gotta agree to EULAs and Subscriber Agreements does not mean that you can take peoples money, tell them to sod off, and do whatever you want because they agreed to your terms. At the end of the day you are still a retailer, I am still a customer, and taking money but not delivering a product is still fraud... Subscriber Agreement or not.

I don’t think I am ever going to spend another dollar on Steam because next time I have an issue, they refuse me a refund, and chargeback seems like my only solution that’s another dollar they are going to leverage against me in the threat of banning my account for fraud when they themselves are the frauds.

Edit:
I can't fix it can some mod please make the text readable for the GalCiv guys?

0 Karma | 64 Replies

A bit on topic, the largest problem I have with Impulse, Steam, etc, is that you are made very aware that you are only buying a liscense for the game. You don't own the game. Before, you had a disk and could play the game whenever you'd like. Now DRM and restrictive means can loose your access to your games and have little recourse to ever play them again. IMO, this is the true nature of DRM, and pirating is just a flimsy excuse. If there's a possibility that a company can take away my privelidges to play a game that I legally bought, you can bet they won't see my money.

i wouldn't let one bad experience ruin your opinion of steam. they have a great seleciton of game and constantly have sales (i paid less than $10 for evil genius, counter strike source, railroad tycoon 2: platinum and madballs. combined). they got on my nerves with the lfd2 fiasco, but with 10 - 75 prcent off everything coming up in their Christmas sale, i can forgive.

Quoting Kodiak888,

reply 1

I tried reading this from the GalCiv forums, which has a black background, and your text is unreadable. I had to highlight the text to see any of it. It probably looks fine from whatever stardock forum you're on, but it's something to keep in mind when posting in any of the off topic sections...

A bit on topic, the largest problem I have with Impulse, Steam, etc, is that you are made very aware that you are only buying a liscense for the game. You don't own the game. Before, you had a disk and could play the game whenever you'd like. Now DRM and restrictive means can loose your access to your games and have little recourse to ever play them again. IMO, this is the true nature of DRM, and pirating is just a flimsy excuse. If there's a possibility that a company can take away my privelidges to play a game that I legally bought, you can bet they won't see my money.

You never owned any game. Even when you had a disk.

And with impulse you can archive your game on a cd/DVD/whatever. (I don't know for steam or D2D)

Quoting vieuxchat,

reply 3

You never owned any game. Even when you had a disk.

And with impulse you can archive your game on a cd/DVD/whatever. (I don't know for steam or D2D)

D2D is almost like buying a retail copy. Like how D2D is able to "run out" of serial codes. They let you download what is basically an ISO of the retail copy (or torrents) and they email you a valid serial and PDF of the manual.

D2D is as close to retail as you can get in the digital download market. No extra special DRM or program wrapper that allows IGN to take your games away from you like Steam does.

Steam's special DRM and modified .EXEs and file structure is much of the reason why mods made for the retail version that work with D2D never work with Steam.

Quoting Othello,

reply 2

i can forgive.

People never forget or forgive a bad customer experience when there are other options about.

Central point of marketing, that.

@Ariolander

can you please increase the teyt size?

and they don't have to give me a return because I am not in the European Union which has laws that require a 30 day grace period.

In fact, European laws require only 7 days AFTER receiving the product... it is more like a "you don't buy a kat in a bag" security... the 30 day is more related to technical problem, by example the software being filled with bug, not working with your material... usualy, a lot of software, when installed, have a readme who say "dont work with...", something not valid here...

By the way, Eula cannot go over laws... in your case, the product/service was not received... i don't know the law of your country but i don't think that it is legal to keep the money that a customer have spend on a product/service that he have never receive...

Being a European, i know only my own laws... here, we have laws who obligate a refund if a service/product is not deliver in a reasonable time... usually, something like 2-3 weeks.. i know that these reasonable time seem to be a long delay but all these laws was in fact based on the laws for order by correspondance... these laws need to be adapted to the fast internet world...

Coming back to the 7 days delay... you need a reason for cancel the buy... something like "i don't like it" can be enough... maybe, next time, you can use a European proxy... they will think that you are European and will not mess with you... back side will be that a game of 30$ will maybe cost you 50 euro !!!

Myself, i have give up on steam after "Total War Empire"... steam engine was crashing one time on the two and the system was rebooting non stop... first, they have say that it was related to my OS, XP Pro x64 seem to have some problem with steam... they advice was to change of OS... not willing it, they have give me a work around... in case of problem, boot in save mode, delete two steam file and reboot... was working but after week of this ( each time that you start a game, it connect to steam !!! ), i have become tired...

Impulse is not always a alternative... by example, i wish Dragon Age Origin... i can have it via Steam but steam is no way for me now... and on Impulse, it is for US only... Not really the fault of Impulse/Stardock but more the fault of the who have create the game... maybe partially the fault of Stardock/Impulse due to their strategie who say "one world, one price"...

A lot of digital distributor charge more for Europe due to the risk of refund... yep, happy customer pay for the unhappy one... never the creator of the game will pay for his own mistake... nothing is perfect in these world...

European laws have win over Microsoft, so same the biggest game factory don't really weight a lot... seriously, the last year, my American dream related to freedom is slowly fade away... When i was young, America was about the freedom of individual right but now, it turn to be the right of business and state... with the years, it seem to me that slowly, American citizen begin to have fewer and fewer right, having similar right that any banana republic in Africa...

At the level of online distribution, it is very good that now we slowly have some alternative with Impulse... not that Impulse is perfect but having choice is a first step... Steam is always the big one but slowly, it loose market share... once Impulse become a real alternative, Steam will think two time before mess up with customer... never forget, customer have the money and if a alternative exist, when you fùck them, they will use the alternative...

Conclusion is that steam is not so bad it himself... what is really bad is their PR and not admitting their error... they was the only choice but slowly, Impulse is growing... for all benefit of any customer... if Steam wish to keep his market share, they will need to listen to their customer... don't listen the customer and soon of later, they will not be the first... Having something like Impulse replacing their top position...

Point is that in business, concurrence have always be beneficial for customer in the long term... not always with better price but almost always with better service...

EDIT : these post seem to be "political" by moment... but in reality, it is... only political can draw laws who protect you... i have internet friend who have not hesitate to contact their local senator for some other problems... in 99% of case, it don't work but the remaining 0.1% is worthy... all political need you during election, your voice is important... and these political are these who will make laws, these who fµck you or these who help you... guys from steam fear the European laws... why the US cannot have similar laws... if possible, not the bad one ( you don't wish our tax system ) but the good one ( like the protection of HONEST customer )...

ooohhh Steam bashing, my turn

A couple weeks ago, I was playing one of the few games I have with Steam (Space Empires 5), and my computer crashed. Now, I have no idea about the specifics, but Steam apparently keeps something tempory in place in order to run, and that crash removed it. It handles normal shutdowns just fine, and the issue corrected itself the next time I got online...

But for a few days, I did not have internet access, and since Steam is required to be running, I was effectively blocked from playing my own games. I realize that it's a minor issue, and the odds of it happening aren't that high to being with, but it's the principle that counts. I refuse to let the functionality of their software dictate when I can play my games

At least with Impulse, once the game is downloaded I could technically never touch it again. I'm done with Steam.

Quoting davidabc66,

reply 8

At least with Impulse, once the game is downloaded I could technically never touch it again.

That, sir, is the biggest thing I have in favour of Impulse. I am willing, up to a certain point, to put up with bad archiving because of this. But I really hope that Impulse improves that facet of the game. The archive malfunctions are a big annoyance for people with slow connections and download limits.

Don't need a horror story. After the insane protection with Half-Life 2 years ago, I have since not used Steam ever again. There are Steam exclusive games I'm interested in, but I simply refuse to give money to a company that treats me as a criminal. If Steam basically needs to give me permission every time I want to play a game I legally purchased, then I will take my money elsewhere. If games on Steam were half the price of retail I could understand, but they aren't.

Quoting Kodiak888,

reply 1

A bit on topic, the largest problem I have with Impulse, Steam, etc, is that you are made very aware that you are only buying a liscense for the game.

And this will only get worse as digital distribution gets more common. This is the real DRM companies have wanted for years; the ability to cut you off anytime they please. It will not surprise me in the slightest once purchased games inevitably come with time limits attached. You might argue, "But I'll never buy a game that expires after a year!" Shut up. Yes you will. After they attach it to enough AAA titles, people will start giving in to such a scheme. And they will rationalize it ("Well, I'm finished with it after a couple months anyway..."), and it will become accepted.

This is why I limit my digital purchases to games that I won't care about a couple years down the road. Resident Evil 5? Yeah, I won't care a year from now. Dragon Age? Strong modding potential for years to come; bought it at retail instead. I know not all digital distributers are as bad as Steam, but the fact of the matter is that the big publishers are the ones calling the shots. If they band together and start denying their AAA titles to Impulse and others unless they increase the level of DRM, they will start caving in.

Quoting lbgsloan,

reply 10

If they band together and start denying their AAA titles to Impulse and others unless they increase the level of DRM

They should get banned from the platform and let the world know, constantly, of why. *sigh* Daydreaming is too easy sometimes.

The thing is, on the AAA titles, DRM isn't the big concern to most people. Look at the success of MW2 even on PC, where they put every anti-PC gimmick known to man on it.

DRM concerns seem to be the main concern of Stardock/GG customers only at this point.

Yea, the Impluse archiving function needs some improvement, but I have a pretty fast connection now so I don't have a need for it. Though, I can see where it would be a problem for slower connections.

I hate when you turn off a game's auto-update, but Steam automatically turns it back on. And then it updates when you want to play, and won't let you play until it's completely updated. And then my internet dies, so I can't play.

Steam crashes, and when you can't get it to relaunch, you can't go offline (because you have to sign in), then you cant play your games.

You can't play LAN on two machines with one copy (Stardock Impulse, you can).

Or how Steam forgets your password all the time when you tell it to remember it.

I hate how the boxed versions of their games make you install Steam. I didn't know that, and I saw the boxed version of Portal at a store. My internet was horrible, so I had avoided Steam because I knew it would take me forever to download any game, but I had played the Xbox360 version of Portal at a friend's house and loved it. So when I saw the boxed version, I was like "Score! Now I don't need to download anything!"

So I bought it, took it home, put in the disk, and what the heck? Why is it installing Steam? Sh!t. And so, 3 and a half hours later, everything was finally downloaded and installed. It really would have been nice if the box had at least said it would install Steam

I totally agree with the OP, and with many of the people who posted. Steam can be pretty bad, and the only redeeming things about it are the immense line-up of titles and the steam-required games, like Dawn of War 2 and Empire: Total War. I've had bad experiences before with Steam, but never on your level; does anyone here remember buying Empire: Total War and not being able to even install it because it froze at the creating cache screen or simply tried to download the entirety of the 15gig+ game? Damn it was bad.....and then there were all the hundreds and thousands of visual issues and simple problems the game had if your computer could only run it on low. Thank god CA and Steam tried to fix all that, but it's still as buggy as all hell. Wanna know why it was especially bad for me? I got the Special Forces Edition for my birthday, and I spent the whole day trying to get it working, along with my two brothers. I didn't get to play the game until the next day, even though it had finally installed the night I got it; it needed to update, and my internet was capped.

Now, you could say that this was circumstantial; the installer freezing consistently seemed to only happen to people who bought the Special Forces Edition in Australia, from what I heard; that probably isn't true. But I of course can't deny that I didn't get to play the game that night because my internet was slowed too, which was my fault.

Bottom line is, quite a few people will have some horrible experiences with Steam, whereas the vast majority of people never have a hitch; or haven't so far, not a major one. But then again, most people use Steam for CSS and the exclusives nowadays, and Steam has already suppossedly released an update that fixes installation of games that require Steam but are not created by Valve. Tough break for them, I just don't think they get what's happening sometimes.

Man, it's good to see that you at least got the refund, so I'm going to sleep a happier person tonight.

Quoting vieuxchat,

reply 3

You never owned any game. Even when you had a disk.

And with impulse you can archive your game on a cd/DVD/whatever. (I don't know for steam or D2D)

I know I've never owned any game. That's why I said that with no tangible item to quantify my purchase, I am made painfully aware that I've only bought a liscense.

With a disc I can reinstall my game (at least most games without the new sdrawkcabssa DRM), and play it whenever I feel like it with no other stipulations or extraneous programs needed. I even have the patches backed up as well as any mods I might want in case they're not available when I feel like playing the game again.

You're limited with the archiving as well. Especially for the games that require an activation before they will work. God forbid Stardock turns into another mega-giant corp with skewed views and poor customer service like some other house-hold names, but if they crash all of your games are gone. If you get banned, all of your games are gone.

I'm not meaning to say that Steam or Impulse are evil or out to get you. Not in the least. I use them in a limited fashion, and haven't had any horror stories, but I avoid using them if at all possible. I can get games on clearance just fine without their sales. I bought Demigod for $7 last weekend (which after playing it for a few hours, am convinced I just barely got my money's worth). The general point I'm trying to make is that programs like this keep a piece of your ability to play and enjoy things that you've purchased, a piece that we used to have, and I prefer to keep for myself.

Now it's about time for me to go outside and shake my fists are the happy children playing near my lawn.....

The larger issue is more that the software industry has somehow grown accustomed to using EULA's to push consumers around in ways that would be considered criminal in other industries. It's already been mentioned that a contract cannot supercede the law of the land, but that doesn't stop the people writing these licensing "agreements" from trying. Most EULA's are blatantly filled with unenforcable terms that would never hold up in court. The problem is, you need to go to court (paying legal fees all the way) to contest them.

Quoting Darvin3,

reply 18

So has there been a case where someone challenged this banning practice by Steam for doing something as simple as demanding your money back for services not provided? I mean I know Impulse uses the ban hammer, but my understanding is they at least refund your money, Steam just holds onto it which doesn't seem to pass the smell test to me.

That's pretty messed up if they can ban you for this or that then cause you to lose access to all your games. That can add up to a nice chunck of change they can screw you out of. That alone is enough to steer clear of that stinker, but I'm already convinced.

Quoting Nesrie,

reply 19

Impulse and Stardock will refund you the money you've spent on games when they ban you and you permanently loose access to all of them? I very much doubt it, but wouldn't mind be corrected on the matter. The very idea that your online distributed game collection can be denied to you from one bad (even if unlikely) scenario should send chills down your spine.

Quoting Kodiak888,

reply 21

That was my understanding of what happened during the forced refunds when Demigod had a particularly ugly handful of days in terms of community response. I could be wrong, and if I am, be happy to be corrected.

I should have pointed out, though I disagree with the action, those were specific cases from some very verbal players. In Steams case, it seems a lot more liberal in their choice to do that to some one.

As far as the online game downloads options, I've recently changed my mind about them. I plan on buying all the games I can in-store rather than online. When you have the game in your hand you dont need to worry about some online jerks banning you and taking all your games with them. I have over 30 games I've bought online from d2d, steam, and impulse. Generally if there is a great sale then I'll grab a game, but when buying new I try to buy from the store these days. Also - if the company ever goes bankrupt they could shut down the service - that would suck.

Quoting shayde0007,

reply 23

I worked in online gaming myself, and when you get a forced refund on your credit card it is a mark against the company you do the "charge-back" on. Almost any company you do this to will permanently ban you, and I doubt they'll have any sympathy for you.

As far as the online game downloads options, I've recently changed my mind about them. I plan on buying all the games I can in-store rather than online. When you have the game in your hand you dont need to worry about some online jerks banning you and taking all your games with them. I have over 30 games I've bought online from d2d, steam, and impulse. Generally if there is a great sale then I'll grab a game, but when buying new I try to buy from the store these days. Also - if the company ever goes bankrupt they could shut down the service - that would suck.

Buying the hard-copy disk doesn't prevent them from banning you from using the digital distribution service, which in Steam's case means that you still cant use your program. Good thing about Impulse is that it's not needed to run programs, only update them.

Steam has obvious appeal, including its massive catalog, strong sales, and great community features. I would be less troubled by Valve's approach to DRM if the media and gamers in general were more critical of Valve. Why is it that Apple's DRM was met with condemnation, but Steam gets nothing but praise? Apple's DRM is nearly identical to what Steam offers.

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Steam Horror Story

Return of the Subscriber Agreement