Minion counters.

By tperge on October 18, 2009 6:34:23 PM from

It seems many people have trouble countering minion builds (ala LE). These are ways to kill minions, and not just ignore them. I have found a few ways (some of which are very obious) to try to counter minion builds. Basically anything that is good on grunts will work well with minions. In no particular order, and these are not nessisarily solo strats, but rather make it easier to kill them off.

1: UB: Ooze. Slows attack speeds, and does AOE damage, this with post mortum/ plauge seems to work well.

2: TB.. yes?

3: Reg: AF for aoe. Works good on minions but AA sucks VS competent demis. High level mine work great, as does tagging the general with MoB.

4: Rook: Hammer works wonders later, but personally Im a tower guy. I find that putting some points into god strengh and stats can really mow down minions with your stong aa that does splash.

5: LE: Minions to counter minions. (RoDM favor makes em throw smaller units). Batswarm and Mass Charm help also.

6: QOT: Her AOE damage is impressive. Ground spike deal dmg, and lower armor, and spike wave can be a good AOE also. As well her open from AA does splash. Theoretically Shamblers should also be a good counter, as they do damage to all in the path, but QOT minion build tends to not be the best overall.

7: OAK: I really dont play oak, but Surge of Faith and his own minions seem to be viable.

8: SED: I got nothing. Heal at late levels does AOE, but hardly any.

By no means a good stategy guide, but I hope it gives some people ideas on how to try and fight off minions/mass grunts.

+4 Karma | 43 Replies

Quoting CosMoe,

reply 24

... as I've already stated, this does not hurt a Minion Erebus very much because
even if you kill his whole army, he'll have his whole army back almost instantly by just standing near to the reinforcement waves

Which is why you move him away from them - if he moves back to them, unless a Demigod is tearing them up they don't die fast enough on their own to allow him to instantly have an entire new army - complete with Idol minions. If he tries to kill them to get his NS back, he's not focusing on you - and at this point you should be focusing entirely on him - which should provide more than enough time to get him down and out.

Quoting CosMoe,

reply 24

I know what I'm talking about as I've seen that every top player in the ESL 1vs1 ladder (no favs -> no Horn!) started to lose against Minion Erebus when not taking Minion Erebus themselves. This ladder died the moment Minion Erebus became popular because only such players won anymore. Virtually every 1vs1 I try to join in the custom games nowadays has an enemy Erebus.

Ignoring the fact that the game isn't designed for 1v1 Play, I question how much you've seen as General Oak is single handly the best solo Demigod in the game. I've played against an equally matched Oak as Minion LE, and I lost pretty damn badly. His focus on AoE and healing makes him damn near unkillable in the late game.

Minion LE isn't an unkillable, unstoppable force that can spawn his entire Minion army instantly, with no penaltly that is capable of doing equal DPS with or without minions. Killing his minions removes his DPS, and as a Minion LE player I assure you this is the fastest way to make me retreat.

ZehDon, I see now that arguments won't solve this.

If you do not believe someone who has played in the 1vs1 ESL for months and has about 3 times as many games under his belt as you have, the only solutions is that you experience it yourself:

Please play a 1vs1 against Yzerman25 (this is not your usual amateur Minion Erebus), then post the replay here. Thanks.

Quoting irek1988,

reply 3

Ooze Ub is a counter to any build. is there is and counter to ooze ub?

is there is and counter to ooze ub.

....

........

is there a counter to ooze ub? yes.

oak can take ub 1v1 (at higher lvls, like 5+)

reg can push off a ooze ub (not a hybrid mind you)

an ice tb can (it'll just take fo' eva)

sedna can (depending what build you run)

Quoting ZehDon,

reply 26

Quoting CosMoe,
reply 24
... as I've already stated, this does not hurt a Minion Erebus very much because
even if you kill his whole army, he'll have his whole army back almost instantly by just standing near to the reinforcement waves
Which is why you move him away from them - if he moves back to them, unless a Demigod is tearing them up they don't die fast enough on their own to allow him to instantly have an entire new army - complete with Idol minions. If he tries to kill them to get his NS back, he's not focusing on you - and at this point you should be focusing entirely on him - which should provide more than enough time to get him down and out.

Quoting CosMoe,
reply 24
I know what I'm talking about as I've seen that every top player in the ESL 1vs1 ladder (no favs -> no Horn!) started to lose against Minion Erebus when not taking Minion Erebus themselves. This ladder died the moment Minion Erebus became popular because only such players won anymore. Virtually every 1vs1 I try to join in the custom games nowadays has an enemy Erebus.
Ignoring the fact that the game isn't designed for 1v1 Play, I question how much you've seen as General Oak is single handly the best solo Demigod in the game. I've played against an equally matched Oak as Minion LE, and I lost pretty damn badly. His focus on AoE and healing makes him damn near unkillable in the late game.

Minion LE isn't an unkillable, unstoppable force that can spawn his entire Minion army instantly, with no penaltly that is capable of doing equal DPS with or without minions. Killing his minions removes his DPS, and as a Minion LE player I assure you this is the fastest way to make me retreat.

no hes not. general oak gets raped at low lvls and if you try to play an end game match in a 1v1 you'll get out lvled, be drasticly behind in WS and sucking hard the rest of the time. you lost that game because you didn't push him hard enough before lvl 10. (aoe on an oak? lolwat) 300ish dmg every 8 or so seconds. big freak'en whoop. if you're dieing as minion eru i'd suggest getting a lvl of mist, removes debufs for a very small amount of mana and you still generate minions while in mist.

Quoting CosMoe,

reply 27

ZehDon, I see now that arguments won't solve this.

If you do not believe someone who has played in the 1vs1 ESL for months and has about 3 times as many games under his belt as you have, the only solutions is that you experience it yourself:

Please play a 1vs1 against Yzerman25 (this is not your usual amateur Minion Erebus), then post the replay here. Thanks.

I'm backing Zehdon on this one.

This is not a 1v1 game. 1v1s in the irrelevent ESL means nothing.

ZehDon was claiming that Oak can easily beat a Minion Erebus in 1vs1. I was just saying that his claim is not true from my experience and asked him to show me.

1vs1 is very relevant if you're playing 3vs3 and end up as 1vs1 on one lane and 2vs2 on the other lane. Which happens about every time you play Cataract 3vs3.

Quoting CosMoe,

reply 31

This is not a 1v1 game. 1v1s in the irrelevent ESL means nothing.
ZehDon was claiming that Oak can easily beat a Minion Erebus in 1vs1. I was just saying that his claim is not true from my experience and asked him to show me.

1vs1 is very relevant if you're playing 3vs3 and end up as 1vs1 on one lane and 2vs2 on the other lane. Which happens about every time you play Cataract 3vs3.

1v1 implies there are 2 total people in a game. 3v3 implies there are 6 total people in a game. Strategies and teamplay are completely different.

I agree with Polly. 1v1 in a lane is a single encounter thing that results in one person having the flag, and the other not. 1v1 in a game however is a completely different thing, and has very little relavence on the way the game plays. In fact, I would almost argue that even a 1v1 lane encounter is a rare thing, since most players starting around level 3 or 4 have teleport scrolls, meaning there are always other players influencing the game.

My argument about assassin erebus being a good counter are fairly nil if you are considering a full 1 on 1 game, as it would of course gimp Assassin Erebus' biggest strength: Quickly turning 1v1 encounters into 2v1 encounters.

The problem with the whole argument is that your both arguing different situations, while to what I can see is one side is arguing 1 v1 games while the other is arguing 1 vs 1 battles. Which if so the entire argument should be scrapped because they aren't the same, yes 1 vs 1 battles will be seen in 1 vs 1 games but the same play will not be.

Go to gamereplays.org Demigod Replay section
Download any 3vs3 match and watch it
Stop it every minute
Count how many times the match is 1vs1 on 1 lane and 2vs2 on the other lane

I'm talking about hard, countable, undeniable facts here:

2 lanes for 3 players on each side: Except for pushes or ganks this will mostly result in 1vs1 on 1 lane where a Minion Erebus will always have a big advantage. Tele scrolls do not change this fact, they can only balance out the game a bit.

Is this really not obvious to you!?

That aside, there is of course a difference in 3vs3 gameplay in comparison to 1vs1 gameplay. Nevertheless 1vs1 is very relevant.

But the fall out of the battle is completely different. In a 1v1 battle with a team, you can't be as aggressive, because you constantly fear the telegank. Further more, flag distribution is very much different, as is lane priorities. In a 3v3 it is often more important to make sure you get xp, and flag swap than it is to drive an opponent from a lane. In a real 1 on 1 GAME however the person who first causes the other to run for the crystal has a *huge* advantage due to being able to get flag domination while they are gone. You can also afford to be more aggressive because there is no one who can come and help.

Your "Undeniable" facts have nothing to do with the argument. Yes, a lot of 1v1 battles occur (Though they are often less important than 2v2's) but they are not the same as a 1v1 game.

I think I'll bastardize Obscenitors theory for you guys: If there were only two demigods in this game, a Fire TB and a Fire TB who did 10% less damage for all his spells, it would be grossly unfair for them to fight 1v1. 2v2 where one side had a 10% less damage TB would be a little more even but the regular TBs would still win. 3v3 with one side having one gimped TB might be really close... if they got lucky or were a little better they could probably win. 4v4 wouldn't hardly matter at all... so on an so forth.

If this is how the game was, guys like Zehdon, Poly, and Zechnophobe would be telling you that the 10% Less Damage TB was fine, and you just needed to learn to use him... that he was a support Demigod... that he was meant to be played in certain situations... that just cause he always loses to Regular Fire TB in 1v1 doesn't mean that means there's any imbalance.

Save your breath Cosmoe, guys like Zehdon enjoy winning and thus enjoy using the most powerful builds of the best Demigods. To think that imbalance might contribute to their high win %'s is an uncomfortable idea and they will continue to cling to their beliefs no how well you present your argument.

Good players lose a game, and then try to figure out what they could have done to win.

Less good players lose a game, and then assume their was nothing they could have done, and whine about it on the forums.

You will never improve your strategies if you always assume someone else was the weakest link.

Loosing in a 1v1 fight does not make a Demigod "weaker." UB is probably the best DG in the game when it comes to 1v1 fights, but pretty much everything else he can generally do can be done better by a different DG.

Quoting CosMoe,

reply 35

Go to gamereplays.org Demigod Replay section
Download any 3vs3 match and watch it

Stop it every minute

Count how many times the match is 1vs1 on 1 lane and 2vs2 on the other lane

I'm talking about hard, countable, undeniable facts here:

2 lanes for 3 players on each side: Except for pushes or ganks this will mostly result in 1vs1 on 1 lane where a Minion Erebus will always have a big advantage. Tele scrolls do not change this fact, they can only balance out the game a bit.

Is this really not obvious to you!?

That aside, there is of course a difference in 3vs3 gameplay in comparison to 1vs1 gameplay. Nevertheless 1vs1 is very relevant.

Your hard undeniable facts are based on faulty assumptions. In a 1v1 you have no other backups. In a 3v3 you have other team mates. Its completely different.

Your hard undeniable facts are based on faulty assumptions.

Please, prove me wrong. Steps1-4. Get a pen. Write it down. Post your observations here. Please.

....

That aside, there is of course a difference in 3vs3 gameplay in comparison to 1vs1 gameplay. Nevertheless 1vs1 is very relevant.

Ding, ding, ding, I'm sorry but round two of this will be on pay per view, please call your local internet provider and order fast.

I'll proceed to download replays on Prison.

You said ANY 3v3.

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Minion counters.