Remove Gold and EXP from Demigod kills

What Crackpipe are you smoking!

By Sinzer on August 7, 2009 4:49:26 PM from

Idea : Remove Gold and EXP from Demigod kills (or at least give option in custom games to remove)

Reasoning

The one biggest thing that breaks this game is having a feeder, a bad player that wrecks your chances of winning.

This game is not enjoyable to play with a feeder on your side as you have no chance of your personal skill winning through.

Most successful online games have elements where even in losing you can still have enjoyment eg. racking up a good K:D ratio in Counterstrike despite being on the losing side. Or pulling off some good strategic moves in an RTS game despite losing.

Demigod is doomed, because you know as soon as that player goes 4-5 down, your chance of remaining competitive as a sole player is almost 0%.

Ways to balance this

I think that creeps should be increased in their XP and gold that they give, thereby increasing the importance of lane control and making up for the lost gold and XP through demigod death. Nothing drastic, just 1.5x or similar.

Death will mean you have control of the lane, the dead demigod is already at a loss without the burden of a massive gold boost.

Make death 45 seconds at least to discourage too much suicide.

The positives

If you are skillful enough to hold a lane, you can remain competitive against the other DGs, you will not be suddenly 5K behind in items. You will still get some personal satisfaction from holding your own, even the hope of turning it around, if your feeder can just stop dieing.

You don't get so much frustration from players at other players when they have a few deaths.

The game will be fun to play as there will be a lot more combat between players.

The negatives

You don't get gold or xp anymore. There is an argument this will lead to less incentive to kill, however, this is a multiplayer killing game, the whole incentive is to rack your K:D ratio up. I would still be eager to take my opponent out even if I got no gold or xp. Just the pleasure of taking them out and having a lane to myself is enough.

Overall, I think it would be great to have this option in the custom game, at least to try it out, to see how it works.

It is very frustrating to have a player who feeds, or even to be the player feeding, I have had enough bad games where I have 3 avoidable deaths and have sealed the fate of my team.

There should be a penalty to death, however, the penalty at the moment I feel is too high and creates a lot of bad problems in the game. The whole PUG vs Pre-made revolves around this, removing the gold and xp from death would slow down steamrolling, players on the losing side would feel more inclined to stick around. Even if they are on a slippery slope, at least make that slippery slope enjoyable to play. At the moment, playing for 15 mins severly underpowered through no fault of your own is not fun.

+9 Karma | 40 Replies

Per journal, this is already planned. 50% exp and gold from ai kills and I think 30% hp boost for ai as "normal/defualt" settings in v1.2.

Quoting Trigeminal,

reply 1

Per journal, this is already planned. 50% exp and gold from ai kills and I think 30% hp boost for ai as "normal/defualt" settings in v1.2.

He means generally. Not only for the AI.

No Gold and XP for Demigod kills would be pointless.

Here's an idea, let's just have every demigod be invincible. This way, nobody will ever kill you and therefore you'll never fall behind. Everyone will have equal opportunity to get to level 20!

Actually, I'm not sure if it is a bad idea, but it is definitely radical. If the original Dota did not have this system, I wonder if it would seem as silly now?

Ah Tradition!

Let's look at the big picture here: some demigods are not that great in farming creeps and earning money and XP that way. Your idea would require a complete rebalancing of UB, Sedna and several abilities (who would invest in snipe or pounce). What would we do with Torchbearer, mines and Heaven's Wrath? They would need to be nerfed, a lot probably. What about last stand?

A rebalncing of this magnitude would require an immense effort and probably weeks of testing and for what? So that feeding is less of a problem in a bunch of games? Not worth the effort IMO.

Besides:

No Gold and XP for Demigod kills would be pointless.

Colonel Jessep says it best.

LOL NO

Bad idea, that would break the game completely. If there is no reward for killing, nobody will ever try to kill, why risk your life for nothing? so people would just stand around farming creeps until they are level20 and then start attacking...

I knew it would be an unpopular choice and I would get a load of LOL NOOEESSS!

I wrote a long reply, but not worth it in the end

I still think that the rewards from DG kill are out of whack.

If there is no reward for killing, nobody will ever try to kill, why risk your life for nothing?

Just want to say on this point.

Back in the day, when I played multiplayer Doom, there was no reward for killing apart from laughing at the n00bness of your opponent.

Even if you drastically reduced the reward, it would still be satisfying to kill someone.

You're confused, Sinzer. The counter points to your argument still stands. The gold and experience reward for killing enemy Demigods is a core game mechanic. Quite like how killing other players earn you money in counterstrike. It is to create an incentive to both kill and not be killed. The team has to work together to look out for each other to prevent feeding.

Like you said, Doom was back in the day, and a very different game. Doom's focus was the single player mode and not competitive multiplayer arena matches. It makes no sense comparing Doom to Demigod at all and you've added nothing to your argument by bringing Doom up.

There are probably ways to reduce the liability of a feeding team mate, and removing the kill reward, a core game mechanic, is not one of them.

If someone is going to feed they're also going to cede lane control, I don't see how it would really be that great of an improvement.

This seems a balance change for bad players, and in the end bad players will always find a way to screw up, if its not feeding it will be something diferent. I can understand why you will want a balance for low and med players but balancing the game thinking on bad players its just a way to unbalance it, bad players should not be taken into account when thinking what should be done to balance the game out.

Eliminating gold rewards for killing demigods will not solve the problem, it will only say to bad players that they now can suicide without any aparent benefit to the enemy.

Bottom line having a feeder in your game is bad and its frustrating but not a gamebreaker, i mean is not the mechanic that is failing, the one failing is the person feeding the opposite team so the one needs fixing is the player not the system.

Quoting LordCarlos,

reply 13

It doesn't realky even benefit bad players, it only benefits good players who play with bad players. It's just too small a demographic to make such a drastic game change for, OP.

quoting post

The negatives
. There is an argument this will lead to less incentive to kill, however, this is a multiplayer killing game, the whole incentive is to rack your K:D ratio up.

To those who are saying if there was no gold xp from a dg kill it wouldn't be worth it you are wrong. Having an opponent out of the first for 30 seconds is a great advantage.

But Obscenitor and LordCarlos made the only points we need to counter this idea.

short: the idea sucks!

some reduction for ai is a good idea, but in gerneral it somply sucks! it sucks so badly that i'm not in the mood to explain why. have to go to sleep,

p.s. did i already said it sucks?

Quoting ShakeNBake,

reply 7

LOL NO

my first instint is to write this off as trolling. However, it looks like you put a lot thought into this, and I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse

my question is, what the hell is wrong with you? your saying creeps should be worth more than players. I mean, that just doesnt make any sense. those things on the map that you kill in 1 shot are worth more than the people who fight back and are threats.

on top of that you sugest that people shouldnt be punished in a competative game for playing badly. and to take it a step further you think that you want to make it so that people with less skill can still compete with people who are better than them.

please, uninstall demigod from your computer and find a different, more scrub friendly game to play.

Quoting Synapsis-dos,

reply 15

No it is not, the game is about achieving the set objective, killing the enemy is just a side product of that. Killing the enemy 20 times each will not win a game of conquest, it will help but it won't mean you win.

To those who are saying if there was no gold xp from a dg kill it wouldn't be worth it you are wrong. Having an opponent out of the first for 30 seconds is a great advantage.

Your opponent doesn't get gold or XP while they are dead and you get map control...there's no reason why you need a large chunk of gold as well.

TF2 and Doom are fps games. It takes a lot less effort and risk to kill someone in an fps than in a game like Demigod. Besides that, there are drastic differences in the game's pacing, kill rate, and team sizes. You can't compare the two genres. Removing the gold bonus from kills would lead to a completely different and far less exciting game. Why chase an enemy into their towers when you both don't get tangibly rewarded for the kill and end up having to go to your own healing stone to recover from the damage. You would also see a lot more brute strategies like suicide back door attempts and suicide attacks on structures.

+1. Removing your opponent from lane so you can push towers is the reward you get from killing an opponent, as well as probably getting the rest of the map since you outnumber your opponents. That's a big reward, not dissimilar to the way death works in TF2.

Your opponent doesn't get gold or XP while they are dead and you get map control...there's no reason why you need a large chunk of gold as well.

You don't buy stuff in TF2, what good would a "big chunk of gold" do?

The closest FPS comparison is counterstrike, where you do actually get money for equipment off of kills.

gold per kill is there to speed up the winning process. so obviously the ones who r killing more demis deserve to win at a faster pace.

Quoting cottonrabbit,

reply 20

I agree you can't compare two genres and that is why Doom is a poor comparison but the one made about TF2 is perfectly valid because it is comparing aspects of the games. Yes killing in a fps is much easier but that's not the point, the point is killing your enemy gives you a number advantage and so it is easier to kill the other enemies or control the map.

You wouldn't see more suiciding because that would be dumb, as woppin mentions you don't get gold or xp when dead plus your team is a player down.

No, you don't buy items in TF2, and on some level you do actually get a direct reward for kills, you get more metal to build turrets/dispensers/whatever.

In countersrike you DO actually buy items and you get gold for kills.

Quoting Obscenitor,

reply 24

No, you don't buy items in TF2, and on some level you do actually get a direct reward for kills, you get more metal to build turrets/dispensers/whatever.
In countersrike you DO actually buy items and you get gold for kills.

Where did I mention anything about money or buying stuff? I was talking about the non monetary bonus for for a kill.

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Remove Gold and EXP from Demigod kills

What Crackpipe are you smoking!