Unclean Beast: Spit vs Ooze

A good UB player will probably use both, and the mana issue has several solutions such as HoL, Blade of Serpent, or Essence of Magic.

Quoting MABManZ,

reply 1

A good UB player will probably use both, and the mana issue has several solutions such as HoL, Blade of Serpent, or Essence of Magic.

A hybrid build is rather mediocre until late-game because you have to get both +mana and +hps items to effectively use both skills and skip out on passives. I generally stick completely with ooze and passives until level 16(if I get that high), then I pick up spit and upgrade it.

And yes the mana issue has items that can solve it, but the point is that it's a necessity to buy them instead of other items, in the same way you have to pick up hps items to keep up with ooze.

Actually going both is more of an early game thing I think. Having the dps from spit, ooze, and AA is pretty brutal. Plus you can foul grasp when they realize they need to run, so they'll continue taking spit, ooze, and the foul grasp damage for those two seconds. It does force you to get mana stuff though. I think ooze beast is strongest late game because he can constantly auto attack, and his ooze slows down enemy auto attacks. You just gotta not feed your enemy early on.

Quoting JagerJack,

reply 2

Quoting MABManZ, reply 1A good UB player will probably use both, and the mana issue has several solutions such as HoL, Blade of Serpent, or Essence of Magic.
A hybrid build is rather mediocre until late-game because you have to get both +mana and +hps items to effectively use both skills and skip out on passives. I generally stick completely with ooze and passives until level 16(if I get that high), then I pick up spit and upgrade it.

And yes the mana issue has items that can solve it, but the point is that it's a necessity to buy them instead of other items, in the same way you have to pick up hps items to keep up with ooze.

incorrect?

Ooze doesn't typical drain your health by much more than the effect of it is decreasing the damage you take, especially the further into the game you get. Doing 50 damage to yourself, and decreasing incoming AA damage by 40% is almost always keeping you alive, and not killing you.

Therefore assuming the you NEED to stack HP to run ooze is a mistake (Rather, Stacking HP is often a good idea regardless). Since Ooze lets you increase your power without needing more mana, I think it makes almost TOO MUCH sense to use the two abilities in tandem.

I have played pure ooze, spit and hybrid.

Pure spit is really good for levels 1-10, after that its effectiveness is negligible except if you are playing against horrible players or regulus players that go pure +dmg/atk speed.

Hybrid has issues throughout the game until lvl 15+ that you become pretty hardcore. The problem is your itemization suffers having to get at least one mana helmet and rely on HoL heavily due to spit costing a lot of mana.

Pure ooze is really good for levels 5+, because it can go pure +health/lifesteal giving you massive HP and a lot of white damage especially once Mageslayer is bought.

Overall pure ooze is better than everything else, keeping in mind that your UB will not be very good for taking down buildings, but demigods will fear him.

So, dare I ask, what does Pure Ooze get that hybrid doesn't? More inner beast and diseased clause? This seems like the equivalent of the AA regulus who doesn't get mines or mark. If you do not have item advantage over the opponent, your lack of dps just hurts too much.

Quoting Zechnophobe,

reply 7

So, dare I ask, what does Pure Ooze get that hybrid doesn't? More inner beast and diseased clause? This seems like the equivalent of the AA regulus who doesn't get mines or mark. If you do not have item advantage over the opponent, your lack of dps just hurts too much.

Jagerjack thinks he knows whats hes doins but he doesnts. Youre correct, Hybrid usually works better.

I never had any issue playing with Hydrid and I dont need to be lvl 15 to be effective in combat. However I do not think that any build is better than the others. It's situational.

Pure ooze has full Inner Beast, Foul Grasp I, full ooze, full disease claw, post mortem and full enhance attributes.

Again I am not saying that if you play hybrid you will never win, but going pure ooze you ignore +mana, you just naturally have enough mana to foull grasp. However if you go hybrid lvl 1 spit + foul grasp = 1300mana which means at lvl 20 you can only spit and foul grasp twice and then you run out and you either have to use HoL, port back or mana pot.

Hybrid will sacrifice disease claw II and III + enh attributes IV, V, VI. In my opinion that plus the loss of health (since you need more mana) does not counterbalance well. The only time I have seen hybrid devastate was when my roommate and I went dual UB, two spits, plus two ooze was just plain broken for anyone dare to come close.

Pure Ooze has passive skills. Some mix of stats, claws, and/or inner beast. the build is generally less self-sufficient than a Hybrid build but is much durable and "tougher than he looks" due to the passive skills.

alot of people have trouble understanding the context of use for a Pure Ooze build. it requires team support. it definitely has much less killing power than a Spit/Ooze hybrid so the main thing you end up doing is helping out in team situations where your Foul Grasp stun, and the debuffs from Ooze and Diseased Claws really hamper your opponents alot. but you do kinda need a partner to get the rapid kills, because Pure Ooze has much lower DPS than a hybrid.

i mean, when i say people just dismiss it it seems to me like they don't really understand what the build is for and when/why its good.

i still don't use Pure Ooze that often. i tend to favor the strategy of starting with Spit in levels 1-7 than transitioning into using both Spit and Ooze starting at either level 8 (if i've already got a good item advantage) or level 11 (if its a close match).

Quoting Zechnophobe,

reply 5

So, dare I ask, what does Pure Ooze get that hybrid doesn't? More inner beast and diseased clause? This seems like the equivalent of the AA regulus who doesn't get mines or mark. If you do not have item advantage over the opponent, your lack of dps just hurts too much.[/quote]

Stats, diseased claws, inner beast. Your dps from skills might be greater, but I will have more health and my AA will be higher.

Quoting Foreshadowed,

reply 8

Jagerjack thinks he knows whats hes doins but he doesnts. Youre correct, Hybrid usually works better.

Yeah, because your win/loss ratio is so impressive. Also, reported for trolling.

Quoting Zechnophobe,

reply 5

Ooze doesn't typical drain your health by much more than the effect of it is decreasing the damage you take, especially the further into the game you get. Doing 50 damage to yourself, and decreasing incoming AA damage by 40% is almost always keeping you alive, and not killing you.

Unless a large part of the damage you're taking is from skills. Mines, fireball, pentinence, etc.

Therefore assuming the you NEED to stack HP to run ooze is a mistake (Rather, Stacking HP is often a good idea regardless). Since Ooze lets you increase your power without needing more mana, I think it makes almost TOO MUCH sense to use the two abilities in tandem.

The point I'm trying to make is that it will hurt you more than any other DG if you don't stack health/hps because ooze is the only skill in the game that costs health.

[quote who="1000Losses" reply="9" id="2266356"]I never had any issue playing with Hydrid and I dont need to be lvl 15 to be effective in combat. However I do not think that any build is better than the others. It's situational.

I'm not trying to say that a hybrid build is ineffective, I've played one before and it is devastating late-game and early-game. But mid-game it lacks the power that a pure ooze build would have due to the skimping out on passives and getting both +mana and +health items.

I hate the quote function.

So, I feel the arguments that you cannot stack as much health with hybrid to be a good deal moot. You are talking about like 500 hit points, not like 2k. The only item you should really need with a spit build that you wouldn't otherwise, is probably a Vlemish faceguard. Items that give HP for the same gold amount give about 500. If you compare 500 hp to 1500 damage from level 4 spit, I think the difference is really against you.

Also, transitive says it requires team support. I don't think that is a good argument. Even if I take it to mean that it is 'stronger' in a team combat than spit is (As opposed to it 'needing support because it is not good enough') I would still disagree. Spit is going to contribute more damage, than a few extra points in inner beast or diseased claws will.

For the sake of making this a little tighter of an argument, here is what I consider a stereotypical hybrid build to be at level 10.

Spit 4
Grasp 1
Diseased 1
Ooze 4

Here is my attempt at an ooze only build:

Ooze 4
Grasp 1
Diseased 3
Innerbeast 2

Maybe you get post mortem instead, I dunno.

What are we trading in my guesstimate?

2 points of Diseased claws (5% movement speed slowed)

2 points of Inner Beast (7% attack and movement speed)

One needs more mana. So, let's say Hybrid gives you 1000 mana, and 15 mps, but Ooze gives you 600 HP and 10 hps (hauberk of life).

Seriously, I just don't see this as much of a match up. You lose your harassment ability, for a bit more HP. A bit more speed, and slightly greater AA, but you are much more reliant on it. How do you deal with frag mines? How do you deal with KITING, or even worse, healing? You have no dynamism in your build to handle a wide variety of situations (Spit is useful both for hit and run, and long duration fights, as well as against towers, and runners).

Like I said, playing beast without Spit is like Regulus without Mines. It might be good if you are already winning, but you just don't have the combat effectiveness you need.

agree completely with what the the poster above said.

Quoting Zechnophobe,

reply 13

So, I feel the arguments that you cannot stack as much health with hybrid to be a good deal moot. You are talking about like 500 hit points, not like 2k. The only item you should really need with a spit build that you wouldn't otherwise, is probably a Vlemish faceguard. Items that give HP for the same gold amount give about 500. If you compare 500 hp to 1500 damage from level 4 spit, I think the difference is really against you.

You could have used that money to buy hauberk of life instead of vlemish, which gives +600 health and +10 hps. If you add stats into it the hp difference would be around 1000.

Also, transitive says it requires team support. I don't think that is a good argument. Even if I take it to mean that it is 'stronger' in a team combat than spit is (As opposed to it 'needing support because it is not good enough') I would still disagree. Spit is going to contribute more damage, than a few extra points in inner beast or diseased claws will.

Spit might contribute more damage, but ooze reduces the amount of damage your ally is taking through the speed debuff and hits multiple targets at once. If you're up against an Oak or other hp stacking DG, reducing their attack speed is more valuable than simply causing more damage.

For the sake of making this a little tighter of an argument, here is what I consider a stereotypical hybrid build to be at level 10.

Spit 4
Grasp 1
Diseased 1
Ooze 4

Here is my attempt at an ooze only build:

Ooze 4
Grasp 1
Diseased 3
Innerbeast 2

Maybe you get post mortem instead, I dunno.

What are we trading in my guesstimate?

2 points of Diseased claws (5% movement speed slowed)

2 points of Inner Beast (7% attack and movement speed)

One needs more mana. So, let's say Hybrid gives you 1000 mana, and 15 mps, but Ooze gives you 600 HP and 10 hps (hauberk of life).

Actually for me an ooze build would have ooze 4, grasp 1, stats 4 and inner beast 2. I'll pick up a rank of diseased claws if my opponents are fast, but upgrading it is unnecessary.

Seriously, I just don't see this as much of a match up. You lose your harassment ability, for a bit more HP. A bit more speed, and slightly greater AA, but you are much more reliant on it. How do you deal with frag mines? How do you deal with KITING, or even worse, healing? You have no dynamism in your build to handle a wide variety of situations (Spit is useful both for hit and run, and long duration fights, as well as against towers, and runners).

Because an ooze UB has so much more staying power. Spit alone won't kill an enemy DG. I deal with mines by avoiding them, and if they hit me it affects me less than it would a spit or hybrid. Sedna's heal would be worse for a spit UB because ranks I and II completely mitigate the damage it causes, and rank III removes it entirely. You deal with kiting by using teleport scrolls to gank the opponent. An ooze build requires more finess and isn't as versatile, but the payoff is worth it.

Like I said, playing beast without Spit is like Regulus without Mines. It might be good if you are already winning, but you just don't have the combat effectiveness you need.

No it isn't, because spit has several, well-known counters compared to mines or ooze:

- Look above for Sedna's Heal

- Bramble Shield completely mitigates spit until rank III, and since it isn't burst damage you're still giving her time to run away.

- Erebus' mist completely removes it.

- Oak's Shield removes it at rank III, and before than it still stops the damage temporarily.

- Symbol of Purity removes it.

So what happens if your opponents uses one of these counters? You go from a powerful hybrid to a weaker than normal ooze UB.

Presonally I play a hybrid UB with a leaning towards ooze. I usually only put a point or 2 into spit before level 15... bus usually the game is decided by level 15

Quoting HateForest,

reply 16

Presonally I play a hybrid UB with a leaning towards ooze. I usually only put a point or 2 into spit before level 15... bus usually the game is decided by level 15

I think that would be the best kind of "hybrid." When I think hybrid I think of someone who equally upgrades spit and ooze.

You could have used that money to buy hauberk of life instead of vlemish, which gives +600 health and +10 hps. If you add stats into it the hp difference would be around 1000.

The 500 hit difference I quoted was representing a Hauberk of life (Though you are correct, it is 600 not 500). I corrected myself in the run down I did later on. You don't get a boost of 500 hit points simply by not running spit. If you mean to suggest 10 HPS is that much better, I think it is a bit of a reach. 12 HPS vs 2 is a pretty big change, but this is more like 25 vs 15 or somewhere abouts.

Spit might contribute more damage, but ooze reduces the amount of damage your ally is taking through the speed debuff and hits multiple targets at once. If you're up against an Oak or other hp stacking DG, reducing their attack speed is more valuable than simply causing more damage.

We are not comparing Spit to Ooze, both builds have ooze at max ranks. We are comparing spit to the other skills you are taking instead of it.

Actually for me an ooze build would have ooze 4, grasp 1, stats 4 and inner beast 2. I'll pick up a rank of diseased claws if my opponents are fast, but upgrading it is unnecessary.

Well, that's 11 points, so I'll assume you mean stats 3? Stats 3 gives 345 hit points, and a little bit of extra damage (probably more than inner beast actually, so maybe a 4th point in stats is greater than a second in inner beast).

Either way you are still talking about a piddly amount of effect compared to 1650 damage.

Because an ooze UB has so much more staying power. Spit alone won't kill an enemy DG. I deal with mines by avoiding them, and if they hit me it affects me less than it would a spit or hybrid. Sedna's heal would be worse for a spit UB because ranks I and II completely mitigate the damage it causes, and rank III removes it entirely. You deal with kiting by using teleport scrolls to gank the opponent. An ooze build requires more finess and isn't as versatile, but the payoff is worth it.

600 hit points and 10 hps... and you can factor in your completely wasted points on enhanced attributes too, for another 345 hit points and .56 hps. You get less benefit from 3 points of your build, than a single 1750 gold item. Either way this is not 'so much more staying power'. Reserver that for an Oak w/ priest and shield vs one without either.

You cannot just 'avoid' mines any more than you can avoid hammerslam.

Using teleport scrolls to gank opponents is pure theory craft. Not only does it not occur often in a real game, but it doens't address the issue of kiting. What do you do to a regulus on the other side of a lane from you? teleport behind him?

No it isn't, because spit has several, well-known counters compared to mines or ooze:

- Look above for Sedna's Heal

- Bramble Shield completely mitigates spit until rank III, and since it isn't burst damage you're still giving her time to run away.

- Erebus' mist completely removes it.

- Oak's Shield removes it at rank III, and before than it still stops the damage temporarily.

- Symbol of Purity removes it.

So what happens if your opponents uses one of these counters? You go from a powerful hybrid to a weaker than normal ooze UB.

Once again you are attempting to compare OOZE to SPIT instead of SPIT to your piddly stat boosts. There are counters to spit, sure, but they are not perfect counters.

First of all, sedna's heal (1 and 2) and Queens shield do NOT counter spit. They are damage healers or blockers. They blocked your spit damage, sure, but that means they are not blocking or healing your ooze or auto attack damage.

Symbol of purity removes it, but at the cost of having an otherwise weaker favor item.

The only abilities that I would say 'counter' in the hard sense, are oaks shield at level 1, level 1 mist, and Sedna's rank 3 or greater heal. These both purify AND do other things (And in the case of mist, it is a cheap cheap ability that you can easily re-use, so it counts).

Except against an opposition of mostly these characters with those abilities, Spit is still better than random stats.

[quote who="Zechnophobe" reply="18" id="2266690"]

The 500 hit difference I quoted was representing a Hauberk of life (Though you are correct, it is 600 not 500). I corrected myself in the run down I did later on. You don't get a boost of 500 hit points simply by not running spit. If you mean to suggest 10 HPS is that much better, I think it is a bit of a reach. 12 HPS vs 2 is a pretty big change, but this is more like 25 vs 15 or somewhere abouts.

Well with stats and inner beast I'd have 1060 health, 100 armor, 15% attack speed, 7% move speed, 10.72 HPS, and 24 weapon damage over you.

We are not comparing Spit to Ooze, both builds have ooze at max ranks. We are comparing spit to the other skills you are taking instead of it.

Yeah, I'm starting to go a bit off on some of my points with the comparisons here. Sorry about that.

Well, that's 11 points, so I'll assume you mean stats 3? Stats 3 gives 345 hit points, and a little bit of extra damage (probably more than inner beast actually, so maybe a 4th point in stats is greater than a second in inner beast).

Either way you are still talking about a piddly amount of effect compared to 1650 damage.

No, I meant that I might swap out a point in stats for diseased claws, but usually I stick with stats and inner beast. Either way refer to the above. I wouldn't call the stat effects "piddly", especially since I still have two more.

600 hit points and 10 hps... and you can factor in your completely wasted points on enhanced attributes too, for another 345 hit points and .56 hps. You get less benefit from 3 points of your build, than a single 1750 gold item. Either way this is not 'so much more staying power'. Reserver that for an Oak w/ priest and shield vs one without either.

Refer to the above for the exact benefits. Yes the hauberk gives more, but the effects add up. I may have exagerrated by saying "so much", but I still have more staying power.

You cannot just 'avoid' mines any more than you can avoid hammerslam.

You can avoid hammerslam if you're fast enough, although the AoE will probably still get you. Depending on the map, you can walk around the mines. Besides, that doesn't change the fact that the mines will be hitting a hybrid harder.

Using teleport scrolls to gank opponents is pure theory craft. Not only does it not occur often in a real game, but it doens't address the issue of kiting. What do you do to a regulus on the other side of a lane from you? teleport behind him?

If there is a flag or tower near him that I own, then yes. And it might be theory craft, but it works. Your opponent is going to have to attack your towers or recap flags to win.

Once again you are attempting to compare OOZE to SPIT instead of SPIT to your piddly stat boosts. There are counters to spit, sure, but they are not perfect counters.

No, I'm not. If I can take spit away from a hybrid then he's just a less than average ooze UB.

First of all, sedna's heal (1 and 2) and Queens shield do NOT counter spit. They are damage healers or blockers. They blocked your spit damage, sure, but that means they are not blocking or healing your ooze or auto attack damage.

I'll agree they aren't the perfect counters, but what if you can't catch them in time? Sedna can use inner grace and boots of speed to outrun you, and QoT can use spike wave to slow you down. Your AA is weaker, so in this case an ooze UB would have the advantage.

Symbol of purity removes it, but at the cost of having an otherwise weaker favor item.

True, symbol of purity isn't a very good counter.

The only abilities that I would say 'counter' in the hard sense, are oaks shield at level 1, level 1 mist, and Sedna's rank 3 or greater heal. These both purify AND do other things (And in the case of mist, it is a cheap cheap ability that you can easily re-use, so it counts).

Except against an opposition of mostly these characters with those abilities, Spit is still better than random stats.

It's not better if they can completely remove it(talking about mist, rank III heal, and shield). Each stat skill on its own is mediocre, but adding them together gives you a pretty big bonus.

I'm not saying that a hybrid is a bad build, I'll probably add it to the list later on. From what I understand it has a great early and late game when compared to a pure ooze or spit build. But mid-game is what I'm worried about, and I don't think it's any better than an ooze build.

Zechnophobe, your criticisms are accurate on a point for point basis but are lacking context, which is the only thing that can determine whether or not a pure build will outperform a hybrid build.

in general, the hybrid build is much more self sufficient. its got higher dps, is better at killing enemy dgs, is possibly the best 1on1 duelist in the game (maybe Sedna or Erebus competes but not much else has a chance). the differences come out in development schedule and team role interaction. also, its very incorrect to claim that the differences based on itemization are small.

here is an illustration of the very non-trivial difference in itemization and stats

a typical item buy order for a hybrid build is this:

start on Banded Armor and Scaled Helm and Blood of Fallen (favor)

buy Wand of Speed

buy Nimoth Chestguard

buy Unbreakable Boots

sell Scaled Helm, buy Vlemish Faceguard

buy Heart of Life

done (further purchases are lategame decisions such as artifacts or citadel upgrades)

total gold spent: 10910

stats snapshot for level 10

health 5065 (8130 modifed for armor), regen 34 hps

mana 3878, regen 32 mps

a typical buy order for a pure ooze build is this:

start on Banded Armor and Scalemail and Blood of Fallen (favor)

buy Unbreakable Boots

buy Wand of Speed

buy Nimoth Chestguard

buy Hauberk of Life

sell Banded Armor, buy Narmoth's Ring

done (further purchases go toward lategame decisions)

total gold spent: 10510

stats snapshot for level 10

health 6015 (11098 modified for armor), regen 44 hps, also with 8% life-leech (equivalent to about 15 extra hps while auto-attacking, this quantity is effected by enemy armor though)

mana 2828, regen 6 mps

this isn't counting the effects of any passive skills you may have taken either

the other major point i wanted to make was about team role and playstyle.

because a Pure Ooze build has sacrificed burst damage and harrassment ability for pure survivability the role that this Beast assumes in a team situation is tank and anchor. you will shrug off tower hits, distract (and rapidly kill) creeps and minions, and mostly just hold ground. you can sit around pumping out ooze for much longer periods of time and you're generally much less interested in quick kills than other Beast playstyles. you take longer to kill and are an unattractive target to attack due to your high health regen (and getting the Life Leech from Narmoth's really matters here) and high armor value.

the way this affects team play dynamics is very important to consider. this is what i mean by context being the main determining factor. the Tank-like Pure Ooze style permits team-mates to behave differently. your role in a team situation is to debuff and weaken enemies while absorbing damage, its basically a classic tank role.

the hybrid beast is just a killer. a very effective one. but it will fail in the team anchor role where the pure ooze tank beast will succeed. conversely the pure ooze tank will fail in the killer role. the two playstyles are for different purposes and must be evaluated in context.

tl;dr version here

i think in the most common context in the game (playing against a bunch of randoms where most fights are short 1on1 encounters that end with someone attempting to flee) then Spit/Ooze hybrid has the best performance. i think in more organized and strategic matchups where the tank-like role is needed than you the Pure Ooze Beast out-competes any other build.

Very well articulated Transitive, you've convinced me.

So, the heart of your argument transitive is that you think that:

There are multiple roles that could be played.
Unclean beast fills different roles between hybrid and pure ooze
The effectiveness of the role played by pure ooze is on par with that of hybrid, even if the roles are different.

In the abstract, that sounds like a fair line of reasoning. Being the contrary fellow that I am, I can't help but point out that a 'tank' role is significantly less effective when you cannot focus the enemies damage against you.

But I'll let it go at that, so as to not come off as too petty.

Excellent post transitive. I can only disagree on one point; you buy unbreakable boots first in your hybrid build. You don't need mana until level 5, and at level 5 you can usually have two pieces of gear, so buying a less effective HP item at the beginning is not a great decision. I prefer to open with Nimoth's, then Unbreakable boots, and then Wand of Speed if necessary; before level 7 or so, enemy DG's killing me is not a big deal since I can generally tell if I'm going to be able to beat them or not, and if not they can't chase me into towers with my high HP.

But that's just nitpicking on item order, the rest was spot on.

To Zechno: True, you cannot focus the enemy damage. But you CAN be the first one in to the enemies, which makes minions, creeps, and towers attack you first. With a rook tower farm or a push against a team with catas or so, those can be important. Also, enemies tend to throw good skills after bad; if you run in first, the enemies will target you, and then A: they are on cooldown and B: they stupidely attack you instead of the nice TB that is frying them (although if you have a TB and a UB and you aren't just chainstunning the enemies to death, you are doing it wrong.)

In an organized team you can focus most damage onto a single DG by enforced positioning. If UB is always in your face and the other DGs stay farther back and kite whenever you go for them, you don't have much of a choice but to focus UB.

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