agreed. i only really see the case for locking

1) base portals (yours or enemy's)

2) if you find your self "running round the tree" with an enemy DG and want to break the cycle.

CONCUR!

This thread is poison. Are you trying to make people worse? Flag locking is spectacularly powerful and you should be locking from level 1. On cata for example, someone should be locking the experience or hp flag every single time you cannot hold it. Flag locking is so cheap and the benefits of many flags are just that good.

Take the experience flag: 1.2 bonus multiplier to xp but it's not quite that simple. Your xp with the flag in terms of your opponent's xp is 1.2 / (1 / 1.2), which of course is the same as 1.2^2.

This means that very literally you are receiving ~44% more xp relative to your opponent by you owning the flag instead of them.

One flag lock on most maps is about 10 seconds worth of your team's early game gold income, if that. The benefit of the health flag is that your health pool will have a ~32% bonus relative to the enemy. Also, don't forget the xp requirements for leveling up is an arithmetic sequence, not geometric, so accumulating early xp is hugely significant throughout the game.

So, no, it is not a waste of money. It is an absolute bargain.

Lieu, I have no idea where you are coming up with those numbers. Can you please explain your formula?

If you have 1000 hp and the enemy has 1000 hp and you get the +15% health flag then you have 1150hp. This is not 32% bonus relative to the enemy.

Same goes with killing grunts. A grunt that gives 10xp will give the player with the XP flag 12xp and his enemy only 10xp. Where did you come up with 44%?

Keeping your opponents gold flag on cataract locked from the moment you take down the corner flag until the end of the game is going to seriously dent their economy. You're denying every member of their team a huge chunk of gold, and the value is even higher once currency 1 is taken into account.

On a side note, anyone else feel cataract is in fact not balanced? I feel the +HP flag is a lot better than the +mana flag, and the gold flag is as others have said great for regular locking, whereas the celerity flag is useful but probably not worth locking. This means that the forces of darkness can hold a lane with 2 of their players and gain the +gold flag cap and the +hp flag, whereas if the forces of light attempt to do the same they will recieve the +hp and the celerity flag. This means one team can solidify one lane with something like a tower rook and gain an advantage that is not posible for the other team to do.

Late game its a moot point, but during the mid game where the first towers are down and the game is beginning to open up stacking the one lane seems to net more benefit for one team than the other.

Food for thought anyhow.

CONCUR!  I gave ou +1 as well.  I've got a new strategy to go execute...

You and opponent both have 1000 health normally, two possible scenarios:

You have Flag:

1150 Health. +15% more health than opponent.

They have Flag

1000 Health, but THEY have 1150. You have ~15% less health than opponent.

The net change is actually About 30%. Same reason that Erebus' bite is a health swing = double the damage value (unless you use it at full health, like a foo).

Same is applied to Grunt xp. The difference isn't just how much you get, but also that if you do not have it, the opponent does.

Great example, if you capture an enemies +15 mps flag on Leviathan early on, you end up with +30 mana per second, and they have none.  This alone can win many confrontations early on, as that much mana can keep you going almost indefinitely.

The net change is 30%, true.  But that's irrelevant.

When you're fighting, you're not fighting a DG with 30% less health than you.  You're fighting a DG with 15% less health. 15% swing is the number we should be using to evaluate the efficacy of capping the health flag.  30% is inapplicable theorycraft.

RE Mils: Yes, occasionally no one has the flag, but that is pretty rare so I don't worry about it.

Re Lukka: It is completely relevant. When you capture the HP flag the enemy will immediately lose health, and you will gain it, roughly on par with casting a level 2 bite on every opposing DG in the game (hit point wise). You gain health, they lose health.  Let us factor in DPS for a second, this can be auto attack or including specials.

If each player in our scenario is doing 50 DPS:

1. Me with flag will take 20 seconds to kill opponent without. I will have 150 hit points left.
2. Me without flag will kill opponent in 20 seconds if he is also without flag, he will also kill me.
   
3. Me without Flag will die in 20 seconds, opponent will have 150 hit points left.

The point here is that capping the flag isn't just moving from scenario 2 to scenario 1, it's moving from scenario 3 to scenario 1.

This is not theorycraft. You really shouldn't apply the word theory craft at all when referring to basic math in the game, it is generally reserved for strategies that only work 'in theory'.  Whereas you do in fact always get 15% more health from a flag that gives 15% more health.  Theory craft would be saying that 'sedna's heal isn't very good, because as oak I can always interrupt it with Penitence.'

This is no such situation. And heck, we aren't even arguing about war score, the xp/gold you deny the opponent from actually capping the flag, or the teleport target it gives you (That list is, I admit, a late game thing most of the time).

Considering that there are very relevant early game war score goals, such as gold, or perhaps level 1 xp, that compound over time, I really think this whole argument has the dumbs.  Sorry mate.

He's right guys, math is actually a matter of opinion and perspective.  If he FEELS like it is only 15%, then it actually IS only 15%. Let's all hold hands and sing songs about how them darn numbers are so crazy, and they should just give peace a chance.

The tune will heal all wounds, and make Rage Quitters everywhere reconsider there ways, even if only for a moment. What bliss.

*facepalm*

How can you "respectfully disagree" with something that is quantitative. There is no opinion involved here on hp values.

Ok, so you realise you either have 15% more or 15% less hp. What capping the hp flag is doing is giving you both those 15% differences. You are not getting just 15%. You are getting it twice over. What matters is obviously not just your 15% hp advantage now, but you got rid of your 15% hp disadvantage too. The benefit of capping the flag is the combined worth of getting rid of your disadvantage and gaining a separate advantage.

I don't know how more simply it can be described.

Admin, can we just delete this thread?  Inhumane shame and embarassment is being heaped upon my head...