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An Intro to Kiting, Exposure, and Dancing

By on June 2, 2009 1:49:47 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Positioning is so important, because it wins and loses more games than any other single mechanic in Demigod. 

Anyone can attack.  As proof I will point out that even the simplest nubcake can hit your DG with his. 

But how and when you move to attack or retreat, where you are in relation to other players and the map environment - these things are what separate the newbies from the average from the skilled players. 

We'll take a look at ranged DGs and kiting to start, because it's simple and effective and only 1 in 4 people seem to know it.

Kiting -

1.  Kiting - the ranged DG wants to stay far enough away that he doesn't get hit while maintaining minimum distance for his own attacks.  It isn't complicated 

So when you are Regulus plinking away at Ooze UB, you don't have mines or tower support, and you finally have his attention - you need to run, and you need to do it either faster than him or to a safezone close enough that catching you would kill him.  Don't keep attacking with confidence when he is right up next to you - you will get eaten in most cases*. 

*Of course there are exceptions, but unless you designed the battle to take advantage of those exceptions you need to run away. 

As soon as UB gives up and turns away from you though, you should start plinking away again.  He advances, you retreat.  He retreats, you advance, and the whole time he is losing health and you are staying strong.  This principle is called kiting, so if your ally says "hey - you are feeding kills because you don't kite enough" now you know what he means.. 

2.  Ranged DG include some minion-build Generals, most Reg builds, some Spit-UB builds, most Tower Rooks, and Torchbearer.  (That's right, Tower Rook is a ranged build.  A good Tower Rook kites by maintaining his garden and moving the towers uplane without exposing himself - he does damage at range without taking any, and he can retreat a towergarden as well as advance it)

3.  When your kite falls you will begin taking melee damage - you have become exposed.  You want this to happen only when you are sure you can kill before dying.  If your kite falls before you are sure you can win then you need to get out of there, because you are probably over-extended.  We'll talk more about exposure and extension in a bit. 

OK so now we understand kiting and how it relates to Demigod, right?  As a general rule if what does most of the damage isn't physically attached to your avatar then you should probably learn how to kite.  

The next place I'd like to go with this is how it relates to team games.  To do that we have to look at the nebulous idea of exposure.  The reason I wrote about kiting at all was to give a practical illustration of exposure. 

Exposure - calculation of your position on the map and in relation to allies and enemies. 

1.  About the least exposed position on the map is next to your health crystal with a couple of friendly Support Generals and a Tank UB  in front of you.  It's very hard to die in that position.  (Which is part of why Crucible and Exile are frustrating maps to play Slaughter or Conquest on) 

The most exposed position would be at 100 hp, no mana, no allies, and several enemy towers, grunts, and Demigods focused on you.  At that point you are extremely over-extended and will die.

2.  A skilled player is consistently calculating his exposure and that of his allies and opponents.  When you supporting Heal Sedna is out of mana then your exposure goes up (though you'll never know that unless they tell you - polish UI to include allied mana please).  When there is an enemy Snipe Reg somewhere within sniping distance your exposure goes up.  When you are fighting two DGs by yourself your exposure goes way up.  When you are fighting in the shadow of an enemy tower or against a DG with strong minion or grunt support your exposure goes up.  When you are further away from your allies or your safezone than your opponent then your exposure goes up. 

Flip those factors and your exposure goes down. 

3.  Skilled players are constantly attempting to keep their exposure low while maximizing that of their opponents.  In a skilled game when one player over-extends or becomes too exposed he dies.  (In a *very* balanced skilled game no one dies until the endgame. I've seen games that hit 15 minutes before First Blood)  In newbie games players often fail to take advantage of an opponent's over-extension, so you can feel invincible - then you can come on the forums and talk about how l33t you are ^^

So kiting is a classic exposure mechanic - damage your opponent while maintaining your strength - you are decreasing your exposure while increasing his. 

Now let's apply that to team games with something called Dancing.

Dancing - it's kiting with more than one target, and the player dancing alternates the kite with his partner(s).

1.  Example: If my ally and I are playing a 2v2 on Prison against skilled opponents and he draws fire from both of them he will retreat and I will move up to attack their flank.  When they switch their focus to me I will retreat and he will move up to attack again.  If one opponent becomes exposed we will both attack him, as he retreats his ally will advance and we will break off our attack. 

If both teams are good they will dance like this until one sees an advantage and presses the attack or feels disadvantaged and retreats.  If one DG is ranged or weak or ooM he will always use his ally as cover - if one DG is has better melee or stamina he will always present himself to be the focus of enemy attacks. 

It's called dancing because that's what it looks like - watching two good teams dance you can be forgiven for believing it's a synchronized routine. 

The above paragraphs are my attempt to describe a difficult set of concepts (Replays, please) but if you'd like you can distill it down to this -

2.  When you are being focused on by more than one DG you retreat until they shift focus or the odds change.  When your ally is being focused on you attack until the enemy shift focus or the odds change.

If you retreat or advance too far when dancing then you will become too exposed or expose your ally.  Retreating too far means your ally can't support you and your ally is easy prey, advancing too far means your ally can't support you and you are easy prey.  Dancing is good, over-extension is bad.  We'll talk more about recognizing over-extension in dancing in a sec. 

First I want to emphasize that all things being equal - a good team of dancers will win every skirmish against a good team that doesn't dance.   Please understand I'm not talking about the overall game, you need to balance team skirmishes with lane and flag control, but if you ever skirmish with more than one player then you need to learn to dance. 

Exposure in Dancing

1.  By now most players understand that over-extension into enemy territory is bad.  If you try to solo a couple of enemies or an enemy and an enemy tower you will most likely die.  What people are still having difficulty with is how teamwork can alter the parameters of exposure.

You can chase a dying enemy DG further into a nest of towers if you know you have a shield or heal ally in range who will cover you.  Conversely - in most cases, if you are being chased by an enemy your odds of survival are much better if you can get to a shield or heal ally than they are if you run toward your towers.   

2.  You can become over-extended when you run away.  The most frustrating experience I had recently was trying to get an allied Erebus to stop running so I could shield him and we could kill the enemy Reg chasing him.  He bypassed two sets of towers and was a couple of hits from dying by the time I finally got him to stop - and live to kill his pursuer. 

My ally was thinking as if he was playing a 1v1, he had to escape his enemy.  He needed to adjust his thinking to realize that by fleeing he was over-extending himself - staying to fight actually minimized his exposure.  

So I'll wind this post up before I break the forums, but hopefully we've covered some mechanics that will help newer players take it to the next level.  If you have any questions, anecdotes, or comments on Kiting, Exposure, Dancing, or Team Exposure please post them.  

For more tips on general gameplay click here

Thanks for reading,

Kestrel

+118 Karma | 17 Replies
June 2, 2009 2:01:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Lucky most people will read but not do this

June 2, 2009 2:05:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Nice guide for noobs, most of this is common sense for anyone who knows what they are doing. The names are nice, but they are kind arbitrary and it might just confuse people.

June 2, 2009 2:30:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

all new players should read this. 

June 2, 2009 2:31:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Wall of text, tl;dr

 

On a side note, I tend to run into towers with low hp, I call this Suiciding. It's alot more effective then dancing, kiting or whatever the fuck it is you wrote about in this way too long "intro".

June 2, 2009 2:52:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

2.  You can become over-extended when you run away.  The most frustrating experience I had recently was trying to get an allied Erebus to stop running so I could shield him and we could kill the enemy Reg chasing him.  He bypassed two sets of towers and was a couple of hits from dying by the time I finally got him to stop - and live to kill his pursuer.

This is especially true if fighting a demigod which has slow effects or is simply faster than you. While he chases you he does damage while you do not do damage if you run away. Had you stayed you might have killed him instead of dying yourself.

Example would be spit UB vs Ice TB in low level range < 4.

June 2, 2009 3:55:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Good stuff, Kestrel.

June 2, 2009 4:32:42 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think the Ideas behing "Dancing" are wrong. 2v2's are almost always lost when one team is doing the alternate running/not running, while the other is just standing ground and attacking.  The reason is that the running team is doing half of it's potential damage, while the attacking team is doing all of it.  One team takes 100% of damage to one character, at worst, the other does 50% damage total.

 

It is a significantly better strategy to have extender effects, aka healing or shielding.  If you throw down a HP or Invuln shield on the focused on team mate, you can keep up your attacks while effectively making them either switch targets or do the maximal amount of damage to get a kill.


Also, run'n'gun on 2v2 is horribly weak to a stun. Nothing worse than dancing about, to have either cog taken out of the picture for a few seconds.  You either do 0 damage, or take 100% damage to your weaker player.  Bad stuff right there.

 

 

Your Entire Bolded point 2 is a game theory fallacy.  If your side always has one player retreating (Focused on) and one player attacking, then YOUR side never gets to focus on any one person.

 

All that said, this does make more sense for groups of greater than 2, especially against melee units, as they have a hard time taking down a runner.  But 2v2?  No way.

June 2, 2009 5:28:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i'd say both Kestrel and Zechnophobe are right but not 100% of the time for either case.

 

some teams should dance, others should tank and spank. it depends on your demigod, equipment, and the circumstances of the moment. 

June 2, 2009 8:12:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Zechnophobe,
...


And this is why I wish we had replays.  I don't actually think we are disagreeing with each other here - I just don't think you understand what I'm getting at.  That's why I wish I could show you, rather than having to write it all out.  In any case I'll edit the main post at some point to be more clear. 

Transitive is very diplomatic, but the fact is that Zechnophobe is completely right - once you have committed to battle you shouldn't be dancing..  But the problem is that being right about that doesn't actually have anything to do with my original post. 

Remember when I said the this was about positioning? 

I'm not talking about the actual fight.  For the part where you are actually fighting then yes, having one guy tank or both offer support to the besieged ally is a good idea.  And no, when you are committed you don't want to start running unless it's clear your team is going to lose and you can get everbody out.  I'm not sure where stuns come into it for you - if you are tossing out stuns without committing to battle then you are just wasting mana... 

You don't dance when you are truly fighting.  When two teams are dancing no one is getting damage from anything but peripherals and range spells, and you want to preserve most of your mana for the actual fight.  That doesn't occur until one or both teams decides to commit to battle.  Until then everyone stays just out of attack range.  Once commitment occurs then you don't back off until you are dying or they are, but again, that's not really what we are talking about...

The point of dancing is to try and draw your opponents out of position, to get them to over-extend so that when you do commit you have multiple DGs with strong damage focus on one opponent without allowing them the same.  If your opponents are exposed enough you can continue to attack, if they recover you can disengage, but either way the dance is what leads up to it, not the object itself...

It's the equivalent of two 17th century warships maneuvering for position.  Both want to fire a broadside on their enemy without being exposed to a return broadside.  So the ships tack and weave until one makes a mistake and the other has best position (turned with all main guns brought to bear, with the enemy ship angled so that it can't return fire with main guns).  Actually firing just confirms what everyone with a brain already knows: the ship with superior position has won.   

No good captain really wants to be side-to-side with an equally strong enemy vessel exchanging wave after wave of cannonfire.  Even if you "win" - your ship could be sinking and most of your men will be dead. 
        
Just like good ol Sun Tzu says, "to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill," and the best way to do that in the game I'm playing is described above.  If you are playing a different game I'd love to get together sometime and figure out where they overlap



Quoting Raknor,

2.  You can become over-extended when you run away.  The most frustrating experience I had recently was trying to get an allied Erebus to stop running so I could shield him and we could kill the enemy Reg chasing him.  He bypassed two sets of towers and was a couple of hits from dying by the time I finally got him to stop - and live to kill his pursuer.

This is especially true if fighting a demigod which has slow effects or is simply faster than you. While he chases you he does damage while you do not do damage if you run away. Had you stayed you might have killed him instead of dying yourself.

Example would be spit UB vs Ice TB in low level range < 4.

 
It's why I get frustrated seeing someone engage with a Maim Reg midmap and then turn to run with less than half health.  You'd do better to simply teleport out, every time.  Oh, and please stop letting him kite you directly over 6 mines. 

June 2, 2009 8:42:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

my previous post diplomatic but i wasn't merely trying to assuage both sides. 

 

Kestrel, you did an excellent job elaborating on the issue at hand but i was trying (obtusely) to get at something that was implied in Zech's post as well. 

 

some DG's and some teams don't dance, or shouldn't anyway. if you are playing a certain type of demigod it is your interest to simply stand your ground. you shouldn't ever get involved in a positioning or harassing competition because its not your gameplan. it would just be playing into what the enemy wants and you will surely lose when you play the game the way your opponent wants you to. 

 

an example:

 

I am playing Oak. my items are Tanking oriented. I have Blood of the Fallen, Nimoth Chestguard, Unbreakable Boots, maybe even a Heart of Life and a Level 2 Priest Idol. my skills are "assassin style", so no raise dead wards, i'm working with Penitence, Shield, Surge of Faith, and Divine Justice. 

 

when I play this build of Oak I don't dance. I go where I want it and do what I'm gonna do when I get there. its on you whether or not you can stop me from doing so. If a Regulus or Beast or Torch tries to harass me and tries to get me to follow him he's going to be dissapointed. I ain't moving. Its my flag. Its my lane. My strategy is to outlast. You cannot force me out of the lane with harassment, I have a nearly limitless ability to recover health and mana. You can only force me out of a lane by direct confrontation. 

 

if I dance with you, i'm already losing. you run faster than i do, your range is better and your mana pool is deeper. its a greater advantage for me to simply eat your Fireballs or Spits or Long Range Auto-attacks. i'm on the flag and you aren't, i win. if you come in to confront me, i have more health than you and an invulnerability shield, i win. 

 

and this goes equally for a team where this build of Oak is one of the partners. as my partner you should stand with me. you'll heal from my Divine Justice and Priest minions. you'll get buffed by my Surge of Faith. if you come under fire i'll Shield you. stand with me and we win. Oak don't dance. 

June 3, 2009 12:36:56 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Oak don't dance.

I like it, I use it, and in 1v1 it works.  Does Oak need to kite in a 1v1?  Not unless he's built around minions.  Most oaks are melee tanks and support.  Does Oak need to consider exposure though?  Of course, especially if he has nearby allies he has to think about their exposure as much as his own.

Insisting on an immovable object build might not kill you but it can place your allies in jeopardy and shielding them means you lose your invincibility..

Oak can be a powerful anchor, especially with broken synergies like shield and HoL...take the broken mechanics out though (and eventually they will) and even you will have to back up.

 

 

June 3, 2009 12:50:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

everybody has to consider exposure. just how much you can get away with depends on <everything else in the game> but there's still a fundamental difference between these 2 playstyles.

 

a kiting/harassing/dancing playstyle deliberately overexposes for very brief periods of time to get in opportunistic attacks and then withdraws back to safety before bad things happen. you loathe conflicts on open ground because you can't adequately defend yourself if you need to. 

 

a tanking/creeping/pushing playstyle works to slowly advance the line of safe vs. overexposed. you're perpetually fighting on the edge of your team's safe zone and if left alone you'll advance the safe zone right into enemy territory and start knocking down towers and taking over the map. you invite conflicts on open ground because you can win the stand and fight scenario. 

 

its possible to hybridize, some DG's are switch-hitters so to speak, or will change their modus operandi at some point in the game (e.g. common for beast to start as a harassing Spit build and switch to a tanking Ooze build later on). however, you must know your role and stand behind it. misassignment of role equals game loss. 

 

some matchups are naturally mismatched due to this dynamic. Regulus vs. Sedna is a good example. there's basically no way in hell Reg can succesfully harass or kill a Sedna in a 1on1 scenario. just a mismatch. cases like this completely force the mismatched player to either avoid his mismatch or lean on a team-mate to work through it. 

 

i think as our experience and skill grows we will all start to have greater intuitive understanding of these dynamics. role assignments, DG vs. DG matchups, and the possible monkey wrenches that can get thrown in to cause surprising reversals.

June 3, 2009 12:58:22 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting themadmanazn,
Nice guide for noobs, most of this is common sense for anyone who knows what they are doing. The names are nice, but they are kind arbitrary and it might just confuse people.

 

Agreed....

June 3, 2009 9:02:43 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

a kiting/harassing/dancing playstyle deliberately overexposes for very brief periods of time to get in opportunistic attacks and then withdraws back to safety before bad things happen. you loathe conflicts on open ground because you can't adequately defend yourself if you need to.



a tanking/creeping/pushing playstyle works to slowly advance the line of safe vs. overexposed. you're perpetually fighting on the edge of your team's safe zone and if left alone you'll advance the safe zone right into enemy territory and start knocking down towers and taking over the map. you invite conflicts on open ground because you can win the stand and fight scenario.

 

Good explanation.  I think I'm drawing from a majority of my skilled teams matches being on Prison, where a push build will get crucified if outnumbered.  I'll have to look at lane-based play a bit more but I see what you are saying. 

Cheers

June 3, 2009 9:08:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

People are acting like he is speaking a different language... These are well-established gaming terms. He's not just making shit up here.

 

October 21, 2009 12:08:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

nice read, didn't know about dancing so far

October 21, 2009 10:50:14 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Above post is a necro. Totally excusable though, because the OP is very helpful.

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