Demigod: Staging updates – v1.01 talk

By Frogboy on June 2, 2009 12:35:49 PM from

It’s hard to believe that the updates we’ve done so far have all been on the v1.0 series. v1.01 is the first update that GPG and Stardock consider significant enough to give a new version number.

Of course, that means testing and testing and testing and if we’ve learned anything in the past month is that the on-line testing procedures were inadequate. So on the one hand, we want to get these updates out quickly because there are so many important improvements and on the other hand, we don’t want to put something out that has glaring problems for some people.

For example, one of the things we’re struggling with today is that occasionally Skirmish won’t start games. That is, the players will be connected and it’ll send the message to start the game but it won’t. So we are trying to figure out what causes that.

On the other hand, other key things are working so much better. In-game connectivity is vastly improved. The handling if quitters and disconnects is improved. The stats are far more robust. The AI is noticeably better. A lot of command queuing issues are resolved. The bandwidth use is significantly reduced which should have a pretty big impact. So we have all those things nailed down and yet, we have the issue where skirmish games just get stuck about 25% of the time which is simply a show stopper.

Last night I played a game with just AI. It was the first time I’ve played against AI since shortly after release that was “fun” since before, the AI’s were just cannon fodder – throwing themselves at towers and just being ridiculously easy to manipulate. I can still see areas for improvement with it but kudos to GPG for taking this stuff seriously.

Now all that said, we have a list of things that we think need to be focused on in the coming weeks – both from a business point of view and from a game play point of view.

Finding ways for friends to get into skirmish games on the same team.
Dealing with “rage quitting”. v1.1 (not v1.01) will have a concede option so hopefully that will help.
Finding ways to provide more free maps and Demigods that doesn’t break the bank.
Coming up with new powers that are fun and increase strategic depth.
Finding ways to keep retail sales up. Sales are good now but let’s be real here, updates are fueled by new sales. If you guys have ideas on what it would take to get more of your friends to buy copies at retail and on Impulse let us know.
Building a system where we just host the games. Demigod would think it’s “peer to peer” but we would actually make it client server with Stardock hosting all the games ala Elemental.

But right now, we’re working on the skirmish issue still. I’ll keep you guys up to date on where that is. I’ll be on the chat area too today.

+897 Karma | 120 Replies

I don't want any DG vs DOTA discussion here, but can we please stop the DOTA comparisons here? DOTA had a LOT of bugs. They are fixed now because DOTA is what.. like 4 years old? Comparing a new game to an old mod is not constructive. Not that the argument about DG's bugs themselves aren't valid, they are.

If the 2 games were similiar and one isn;t based on the other I would agree with you. Second of all DOTA was a free mod and built by 1 guy in his free time. THis game costs 40+ bucks. Dota's bugs are much more acceptable becuase it was made using an old architecture. There realy is no DOTA vs. DG becuase hands down one is still pushing copies out and has paid tournaments and a serious infrastructure.

YOu can't review a sequal without talking about the original.

Quoting Sarebroman,

reply 2

YOu can't review a sequal without talking about the original.

*sigh*

Demigod is a brand new IP.

lol, clearly you read that literally sigh....

If you're going to make skirmish have prearranged teams please make it seperate from normal skirmish. The main reason I play skirmish is that I currently don't have a partner. I have a 90% winrate on skirmish and patheon and a 20% win rate joining random custom games (they generally don't advertise that they're playing with their buddies). I've only been playing for a week or so and if I didn't have the option to play against nonpremades I probably would have given up on the game in the first day or two.

Quoting Sarebroman,

reply 2

Like I said you can't really compare. Sure one guy made it, but it was programmed with a game SDK that came ready with a lot of 'building blocks' and a mostly bug free game engine (go blizzard!). Also, he had hundreds and thousands of gamers playing it and finding all the bugs for him, something you can only do with lots and lots and lots of players (testers can't create every test scenario). That doesn't mean it's not a great job of him, I'm simply saying comparing the two doesn't tell you anything. DG is a new IP, new game with (as far as I know) a new engine. It comes with it's own set of hurdles to take. The price of this game is actually quite low compated to other games. I agree, DOTA has a much bigger community, which is ofcourse fueled by a lot of gamers already having WC3.

Reviewing the 'sequal' is once again not constructive. They are by different developers, on different game engines. And if you want everything to be like DOTA, as some ppl on this board do, then by all means play DOTA.

If the balance was really tightened up Blizzard-style

The balance is tight. It's well balanced, it's the players that are the problem.

Point by point…

Point 1:
I think is simple, have a team setting where you can join with friends….in essence first you need a decent communication interface, in essence a friends list and such. Then make it easy to allow someone to join as linked but only with mutual friends.

Point 2:
If you quit, you do not get points for the combat….however I think they really need to rethink their point system. If people are going to be playing long term they need many items and or more powerful items, but there should also be games that limit the choices…like only items from 1000-2000 points…

Point 3:

This is a biggie. Maps…have to be free. Skill sets do not, new demi gods do not. In essence every character can only have 4 active skill lines (and they currently do)…but if you add ultimately 2 more sets of active powers…might be amusing.

Along this line, it would be cool to have 3 and 4 two man teams playing each other, with central flags and central reinforcement zones.

Lastly, one has to have a basic concept of what goes in to map creation, but if a generic map was created with fog all around or based on current locations, and a tool that allows you to move just walls, turrets, flags and such for half the map…the other half is a mirror. For 3 team or 4 team battles you work off of a third or a quarter…but if that really increases load times, I would rather not.

You need to first figure out how to get more people playing in normal setups, and the game running well…then figure out how expansions will go, I can not recommend this game to my friends at the moment, but it looks great, and plays great solo, and it is made for PvP.

Point 4:

Addressed in passing in point 2.
Have many scenarios for combat, 3 teams, 4 teams, starting at Lv 10 with ~10K gold, Timed practice missions…where AI has top settings and the players start from scratch, but the AI can not make it to the defenses, New active powers so you can only pick from 4 active powers lines…or power lines that automatically exclude other lines. In reality the possibilities are endless.

Being able to buy defensive / fortification units and place them where you want. But only on your side of the board. Can only place one at a time and make them worth their value. Really strengthen your defaces or upgrade what is already there???? This allows for the nature of the board to actually change drastically. Or to rebuild destroyed fortifications.

Allowing for Open combat where you can have more then one artifact in use at a time…up to 4, allow limited only up to Value X, and normal.

Speed games where the citadel gets upgraded automatically over time, all money is spent for personal use. But as the citadel is getting upgraded quickly so should exp and all sorts of things…in essence almost guarantee a game ends in 20~30 minutes.

There a dozens and dozens of ways to make the game interesting and have value, but first it needs to work. I need to be able to log in and spend 45 minutes or 4 hours and feel I got something done and made friends playing…not wanted to jump up and down because I keep getting kicked off or other players do.

Point 5:

Sales…require the game to work!!! This is a game made for internet gaming and that is the part that works the least well.
This is a really good game, you need to fix the Network issue first, add new content that has not been seen in a game like this second through a patch (forcing game magazines to reevaluate the game).
Then put out an expansion that also contains the whole game ($15 for current players, full single game price for new players) again force the game media to reevaluate. You are up against the clock as many RTS type players are just waiting for StarCraft 2.
Ultimately you can not plead to reevaluate the game was not done when we released it…you released an unfinished game.

Demo, Make fully playable demo with only one character that only accumulates X number of points to that account. I would recommend that you force the person to make an account and pick the character they will play in the demo, and then they are stuck to only that character…if they like the game in 2~3 weeks they will pay the retail price for it and unlock all the others... or log in as a second account and play a different character…perhaps demo can only play skirmish and custom.

Make a much more community based system, easier communication and where it is easy for me to make allegiances with other players. This will keep the Demo players and others playing…it is easy to stop playing a game, much harder to let go of relationships.

Have voice chat for teams…this is almost a necessity. In a cooperative game, where you are using keyboard shortcuts…you need voice chat or easy communication…like shortcuts saying “multiple enemies on me, loosing my flag, need healing, need to run, easy pickings…”
also need taunts….why do we not have amusing taunts…and an ever increasing number? Other then having to have the Voice people back in the studio.

Tournaments, have team and single Tournaments. Like other parts getting people to keep on playing is as important to new sales as one feeds off the other. (can’t have these until the game is stable!!!) it is one thing to play all the time, another to be good and start from scratch.

Not opposed to the subscription model, but you need to provide more then what you should have provided from the inception…content upgrades every 6 months, where it is a retail expansion, either download the patch for $X or subscribe. Have some subscription only content like time challenges and prized tournaments. You need a legitimate value add that does not make people who bought the game initially get pissed as buying something that I now have to subscribe to.

Point 6:

Might be your answer to the network issue…why was this not the case early on?
However I would rather you guys allow it as a second or third system for group play…this would be the “leader board” the standard and such.

Create ways for people to have a dedicated host (none client) running the game, like many of the FPS’s that where successful.

Quoting Sarebroman,

reply 23

Subscription fees, make it a small amount. 2.50-5.00 bucks a month. Even the biggest penny pinchers can't cry over that amount.

Yes I can and I'm not even much of a penny pincher. I do not like paying subscriptions for games, period. For a game like Demigod, no offense, but the only people willing to pay any kind of subscription are the highly competitive who have the time and are going to be willing to commit a sizable amount of that EVERY MONTH to Demigod. I play Demigod at least five times a week currently but from experience tha won't hold-up. I tend to spread my time between numerous worthy games (currently, Company of Heroes, Act of War: Direct Action [I finally got it working on Vista x64 so I've dusted it off and started playing again], Team Fortress 2, Killing Floor, Trials 2, Dawn of War 2, StarCraft, and Sins of a Solar Empire: Entrenchment to name just a few). Slapping a subscription on Demigod forces me to feel like I will have to play it x amount of times a week/month... which I am don't want to be forced into and therefore won't subscribe.

Plus, no one has an issue with slapping a subscription on a game post-launch? That's the kinda thing that influences your decision on whether or not to buy the game- for example, one of the draws of Guild Wars is that it doesn't have a monthly subscription fee. If they suddenly slapped a subscription fee on it... well, I'd definitely want my money back because that isn't what I signed-up for.

And if you're going to argue that the subscription is only for "premium content", then you are segmenting the community because you can't have those with premium content playing with those without it (unless you take some serious care to ensure that it all balances perfectly with the non-premium content... but with a subscription-based format, this is easily going to run into some major problems down the road; for example, while Company of Heroes managed the Opposing Fronts expansion well for CoH + OF users vs. just CoH or just OF users, imo if you're using the Allied Tank Command Company chances are good that if you don't have access to the M18 Hellcat because you didn't want to plop $30 down for Tales of Valor you are at a bit of a disadvantage currently) and if you are segmenting the community... well, Brad Wardell has already talked about the problems with beta patches so that very obviously seems to not be Stardock's desire.

And frankly it's unnecessary. The potential audience for Demigod is huge and frequent content updates keep existing players coming back to the game. I'll admit that I will go for sizable periods without playing great games. I may not even be tired of them, there just might be another game that has caught my attention or eating my time. But new content is a rather surefire way to get me to boot-up such a game once again- and it's also an excellent excuse to bring some more friends along while doing so. That is the role of free content, is that it constantly keeps the game current across a majority of the player base and continues to provide word-of-mouth long after the game's release- and particularly for something like Demigod, where reviews have been tepid because of the rocky start, word of mouth coupled with free weekends and/or a very effective demo (definitely consider changing-up the demo client once you have new Demigods or maps so that only those new ones can be used if you are only planning on allowing for usage of four Demigods anyway) are what will be the big sellers for Demigod.

You are up against the clock as many RTS type players are just waiting for StarCraft 2.

Except this game doesn't compete with MicroCraft. Two totally different games, except that they are both played in real time, with an RTS interface.

you released an unfinished game.

No, they released a game with a major bug (or set thereof) that was, given the knowledge they had, effectively unpredictable. They treated networking libraries like they would sound or video, and it turned out to be a mistake.

There is a difference between having a bug, however major, and not having properly tested the game. I was there for the beta test; I was satisfied that with some tweaking for known bugs (which they assured us they'd done) the game was finished and good to go. The connectivity issues, which were present but minor, was barely a blip on my radar. I, personally, thought it was just bad case handling and had been dealt with in the more recent versions (in fact, I think that's what it was, and the real problem didn't happen untill post release).

Now, I will agree they should have done a stress test to vary "N" (the number of users) up to the numbers they expected to see post-release; then they would have discovered their networking software scalled as O(N^2) instead of O(N). (Computer Science terms that say that the time it takes to do stuff increases by the square of N, which is really really bad for something like this, rather than linearly with N) That said, I didn't think of it beforehand and should have (computer science, aka programming, is my major).

Just because it isn't exactly the same genre as starcraft doesnt mean that they arent in direct competition.

Ron Lugge:

Saying that this game will not have to compete against StarCraft is like saying animated movies with dragons in it won’t compete against an animated movie with robots in it.

In the gaming world there is genre and subgenre, for the most part the average gamer purchases about a game every two months, enthusiasts purchase much Much more.

For a game to have legs it must reach a tipping point, that is to say become the defacto game in that genre or one of 2/3 if it is a really popular genre. I has to be the game many people play, for more people to play it.

Football games compete against RTS games against MMO’s against FPS…for your time and attention. This is more important with games focused on online /community content. Then for me to enjoy this game and recommend it to my friends, I need to have an experience that gives me satisfaction.

This is a game whose main selling point is internet Based PvP. It was not able to do this smoothly at release, nor have they done so to date….the graphics work, the sound (mostly), the controls…but one part does not work as intended.

If you bought an tent rated at -45 degree. But if you close it there is no circulation of air and the only vent system would have it loose warmth in less then a minute. It keeps the cold out, it circulates air, keeps you dry, is light, is wind proof…but it does not do what it’s main selling point is well, give you a comfortable place to rest in a harsh enviroment.

As to say they did not do a stress test…the entire networking architecture was a poor choice, unless everyone is playing over a Lan.

Ultimately we will see in 2 months (when I hope all of this is solved) if there are still enough people playing the game to give it legs.

I like the game, I like the concept, the game play etc. But if someone can not launch the game and get playing within 3 minutes, it will not have the legs many seem to hope it has.

If this was a console game, it would be dead, or would not have gotten past the certification process for the console…but as a PC game we are willing to drudge on.

All that said I am hoping for it to be a mainstay, I like the concepts, it is not Rock Paper Scissors, everything has it’s reason for existence. Well thought out game.Well balanced for the most part, Except for the network portion.

Fine then, they aren't in direct competition. It'd be like saying an action movie competes with a drama -- sure, there is some common ground, but if I want action I'm not going to drama, and vice versa.

Quoting Ron Lugge,

reply 13

Fine then, they aren't in direct competition. It'd be like saying an action movie competes with a drama -- sure, there is some common ground, but if I want action I'm not going to drama, and vice versa.

Actually the only fact that really matters is that SC2 will supposedly be coming with more then enough capabilities for a fan-made DOTA, will have better ladder support, and most likely better online connectivity.

You combine these three factors and I would say subgenre, genre, and competition won't really mean anything. Simply because people will go play SC2.

DOTA took years to make, and even with SC2 it's basic flaws -- that its a single map that mods a base game, not a game in itself -- will still be there.

Quoting Sarebroman,

reply 4

lol, clearly you read that literally sigh....

Demigod is neither a 'spirital successor' nor a 'continuation' of DotA. They are made by two different sets of people.

And you wrote 'Sequel'. If you meant something else, you should have wrote that. Is Starcraft a sequel to Dune 2? Of course not.

I know how to sell copies.

Sell the game on Steam.

Steam's great for client/server games. I played Dawn of War 2 through Steam. I nearly cried.

The 3 main things that were stopping me from buying the game were these:

1) Connection problems: These are being/have been fixed.

2) Limited maps/demigods.

3) No form of map editor (which would partly fix the first problem).

Quoting borichka,

reply 6

Frogboy,

Thank you so much for the update. I just want to quickly get a word in and respond to this point:

5. Finding ways to keep retail sales up. Sales are good now but let’s be real here, updates are fueled by new sales. If you guys have ideas on what it would take to get more of your friends to buy copies at retail and on Impulse let us know.

In reality, I think your sales will be fueled by the updates. This game is part of a unique genre, so it is often being compared to other games. There is a huge community of people out there ready to jump on a next-gen game such as this. First and foremost, you have to fix and provide all the things you mention in points 1-4. If you had done this already, your sales would have probably doubled or tripled. I personally have brought friends to this game which have not been satisfied due to mainly bugs and issues with multiplayer connectivity. Once this is truly solved, you will have a large boost to sales. The only other factor is the number of demigods. Add 8 more Demigods and you will see a MASSIVE increase in sales, I promise this. You say that updates are fueled by sales... but in reality sales will be massively boosted and fueled by potentional updates. Especially more Demigods. I understand how much work is involved in this game.. but do not forget that the game feels very empty right now. 8 Demigods is far too few... its more like a tease rather than a full game. Another 8 demigods with the depth of the first 8 would really add something to this game but ideally there should be much more.

I definitely agree that this is the case. I have three friends who are looking to buy this game now so we can play online instead of just LAN but the reality is they are too scared they will get bored too quickly to justify the money. 8 Demigods was a start, but as much as I simply ADORE this game, I definitely feel that this number is going to have to increase significantly, and in a reasonable timeframe too.

I hate to compare, but...The DoTA guy may not have to make new models and AI for his mod, but he also doesnt generate income from it, and the extensive and ever growing number of heroes is definitely a large factor to its continuing success. DG has a team (I'd assume) and an income with which to generate new Heroes (and I'm looking forward to them!).

I think the trend that game has shown, is that the more effort the developer puts into it, the more people will flock to it. "If you build it, they will come!"

The Forums Are Now Closed!

The content will remain as a historical reference, thank you.

Demigod: Staging updates – v1.01 talk