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Biggest Imba's That Need Balancing

By on May 18, 2009 9:26:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

1. Rooks Towers. Simply too strong when spammed and abused - especially at higher levels. On small maps like prison they just become a joke when 8 towers are plopped up infront of your base. Something about them needs to change. Either the max cap of them goes down, the mana cost, the cooldown, the HP of it (imo this is the best solution) - any one of those is fine. NOTE: Only OP in certain situations.

2. Heart of Life + Shield. This can be done with Oak, and can provide an easy 6 seconds of very high hp and mana regen. You can use this with any Demigod if you take Orb of Defiance. Whenever you get hit - whether you actually take the damage or not, the Heart of Life regen should be interupted.

3. Heart of Life and Cape of Plentiful Mana should not let Erebus regen mana in mist form. In fact, maybe this is okay - but I think that Erebus should only be allowed in mist form for a max amount of time - 10 seconds or so maybe? (figure can change). It feels like this move can be abused pretty easily.


4. Erebus - Despite his bite nerf, he is still clearly OP. His bite should not slow you down. The fact one move with a 7 second cool down can - 1. Damage you 2. Heal 3. Slowdown 4. Reduce Armour - is just too OP imo. I still dont see why his bite needs to slow enemies down if he already starts with a base speed of 6.3. Also, im thinking bring back the old mist. Mist should also do damage to Erebus. Not crazy amounts, just slight ones. If any of you were in the beta you will know what im talking about.

So far thats the only noticeable imba I can see that definately needs balancing. If anyone else has any other imba's that they think needs balancing post here and back them up with good reasoning and logic and I will add them to the list.

 

+26 Karma | 121 Replies
June 14, 2009 5:11:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I play rook pretty often, and towers really don't need a nerf.  The root of the problem is that upgrading to priests is suicide, so you're stuck rushing into towers which synch attacks on you immediately because all of the nearby troops can be obliterated by the rook's archers alone.

When priests hit the field towers become much, much more balanced, but priests don't hit the field until catapults and possibly giants can be purchased, so there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I think it's at the root of a lot of perceived balance issues on this game.  UB's spit is a perfect example.  It's an incredibly frustrating ability and whenever someone posts a counter it always involves being railroaded into a specific FP item, a specific armor set, and oftentimes getting support from a partner, when the ability is easily countered by just a couple priest heals every now and then.

Fix the issue with priest xp and you'll be able to handle towers much more easily in the early mid-game, and as has been mentioned here already they scale down on their own late game.

June 14, 2009 5:26:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

4. Erebus - Despite his bite nerf, he is still clearly OP. His bite should not slow you down.

bite itself is not the problem imo, its the fact he can:

1. mist - removes all debuffs, and makes him invincible whilst in that form.(makes symbol of purity/orb of defiance/oaks shield look bad)

2. mass charm - an AoE stun(makes ice TB look bad)

3. bite - converts mana to --> damage/HP/armor/slowing effect(makes all slowing + damage effects look bad)

4. bat swarm - a free blink away/into combat

the combination of these makes you better than half the heros in the game combined.

it also saves you a favor item, and ~9k gold(orb of defiance/warpstone), when comparing to other demigods.

that is why erebus is overpowered.

June 14, 2009 6:14:32 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting dgl-DalzK,

 swarm > bite > mist then come out and repeat. If he gets on low hp he can just stay in mist and wait till swarm comes back or help arrives.

 

That combo you listed is 2100 mana at level 10, to be "repeating" that you're gonna have to be letting him pop HoL between them (which is being addressed in 1.1 anyway), or he's going to have two slots taken up by helmets, which still only allows 2 uses of the combo and means he's much weaker in other areas.

 

And Erebus comes up pretty short against a good HP stacked Oak. Maybe Oak is OP since he can beat something?

 

I'm not even going to comment on people still thinking tower Rooks are OP.

 

EDIT :

1. mist - removes all debuffs, and makes him invincible whilst in that form.(makes symbol of purity/orb of defiance/oaks shield look bad)

2. mass charm - an AoE stun(makes ice TB look bad)

 

1. Shield can be cast on allies, Shield can be used whilst moving, you can be targetted by allies buffs whilst Shielded and most importantly you can perform actions whilst Shielded. Also Orb of Defiance is an item everyone can use, I don't think it's meant to outshine a Demigod's specific ability.

 

2. Deep freeze decreases movement speed of everyone that it hits, it also has a shorter cooldown.

 

June 14, 2009 6:47:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

As a Erebus player I don't really find the towers that OP. It sure takes a while to bring them down but at end game they don't really do anything. However if the towers and the rook is together it's silly.

June 14, 2009 7:04:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I stand by the assessment I made 3 weeks ago (who resurrected this thread?) that towers should have a little less hp at lower levels an much more hp at higher levels. They simply arent any use later on.

June 14, 2009 7:05:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

1. Shield can be cast on allies, Shield can be used whilst moving, you can be targetted by allies buffs whilst Shielded and most importantly you can perform actions whilst Shielded. Also Orb of Defiance is an item everyone can use, I don't think it's meant to outshine a Demigod's specific ability.



2. Deep freeze decreases movement speed of everyone that it hits, it also has a shorter cooldown.

you can point out flaws in my post, you really are amazing!

June 14, 2009 7:08:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting StAcK3D_ActR,

you can point out flaws in my post, you really are amazing!

 

I wasn't trying to do it in a mean/trollish way, I was showing you the stats and my opinions of why these abilities are much better than the ones Erebus has that you compared them to.

June 14, 2009 7:16:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I wasn't trying to do it in a mean/trollish way, I was showing you the stats and my opinions of why these abilities are much better than the ones Erebus has that you compared them to.

sorry for taking it the wrong way. i was just trying to point out that erebus has too much utility for a single hero.

June 14, 2009 7:22:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Point 5 >> Priest.

June 14, 2009 7:43:27 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Erebus does have fairly extreme utility, but he doesnt do much damage. He's a pain to kill because he can mist to remove debuffs and blink to escape (and the only way to stop these is silence/stun because theres no cast time) but he lacks any staying power in combat because he gets roasted pretty quickly by most if not all the other characters without doing much himself.

TBH I think Erebus is one of the few DGs that doesnt need tweaking. Everyone else has shit skills that need improving, whereas all of his are handy in different situations (minion Erebus works far better than, say, Yeti Sedna) which leads to a lot of variety in Erebus builds. Compare this to rook...who isn't' going to take towers? Or UB...who doesn't take spit (actually maybe some people don't against Sedna...but thats not the point)

June 14, 2009 8:15:33 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums


2. Heart of Life + Shield. This can be done with Oak, and can provide an easy 6 seconds of very high hp and mana regen. You can use this with any Demigod if you take Orb of Defiance. Whenever you get hit - whether you actually take the damage or not, the Heart of Life regen should be interupted.

Heart of life should either be removed from the game alltogether, or be interrupted even while shielding, and prevent the demigod from moving while using it. I hold that it's the most powerful combo in the game. Not many know how to counter it, and not all demigods can.

June 14, 2009 9:12:10 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It is being moved to the artifact shop in the next patch eobet, so I don't think this combo will be commonplace for much longer.

June 14, 2009 9:21:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This thread is a month old btw

June 14, 2009 11:11:39 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Obscenitor makes a very good point. Fixing priests would help a lot.

 

June 14, 2009 11:20:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting woppin,
Erebus does have fairly extreme utility, but he doesnt do much damage. He's a pain to kill because he can mist to remove debuffs and blink to escape (and the only way to stop these is silence/stun because theres no cast time) but he lacks any staying power in combat because he gets roasted pretty quickly by most if not all the other characters without doing much himself.

TBH I think Erebus is one of the few DGs that doesnt need tweaking. Everyone else has shit skills that need improving, whereas all of his are handy in different situations (minion Erebus works far better than, say, Yeti Sedna) which leads to a lot of variety in Erebus builds. Compare this to rook...who isn't' going to take towers? Or UB...who doesn't take spit (actually maybe some people don't against Sedna...but thats not the point)

 

Actually, twerless Rooks do quite well, as do non spit UBs. An Ooze UB is capable of some of the highest HP in the game.

June 14, 2009 1:22:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Oak Shield does not protect him from Stun or interrupt effects. Those shut down HoL. I play Oak enough to have experienced this plenty of times.

*sigh* Poor QoT with no stun / interupt.

But i thin that hol shoul not work when you are in oak shield, qot shield or misted (in mist you regen only mana, but still...)

The QoT shield does not equate to invulnerability! If the shield takes damage then the HoL will cease as if the Demigod themselves took damage.

 

As for the Rook... Well, this situation reminds me of "UB Spit is OP!!!!" (which I was a part of at one point) type of stuff. I do play a tower Rook, but I also find that the Hammer Slam build just isn't as effective versus players; and the tower build fits my preferred playstyle. The Rook is a juggernaut, it takes him a while to get up to speed but he is a major force when he does... but he can be stopped! The damage from his towers is reduced by Armor, and you should never underestimate the damage of his towers if you go with low armor. Use items to reduce his mana, specifically use Warlords Punisher.

If Rook is to recieve a nerf it would likely be to the last level of this ability, the one that reduces the mana cost of his towers.

Note: Stay the hell away from Rook+Oak, Rook+Erebus, or Rook+QoT as they make for nasty combinations. Erebus, QoT, and Oak all have abilities that will effectively increase the damage dealt to the afflicted demigod and so the towers will be even more lethal.

 

This thread is a month old btw

Have your views changed over that time frame?

June 14, 2009 6:47:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I do declare, what is the word on the street nowadays?  There was some phrase I recall that quite adequately summed up the traditional rebuttal to the Original Poster's post.  Now what was it... Oh yes!

 

"Cry some more, noob!!"

June 14, 2009 6:56:17 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

1. Rooks Towers

Dont agree, sorry. The toweres are fine as they are and utterly pathetic late game.

2. Heart of Life + Shield

HoL is going to be changed with the 1.1 patch. So yes, agreed.

3. Heart of Life and Cape of Plentiful Mana should not let Erebus regen mana in mist form

Really? Maybe. Hmm. Tough one that.

4. Erebus

No, no, no. He is very flexible and useful, but can be taken down rather quickly as he needs to buy mana items to keep his abilities going. I find fighting against him with Sedna is a good counter, just did so in a great match and he always ended up running out of health first. Bat swam on the other hand, meant he escaped me everytime and was down to teamwork to catch him.

June 14, 2009 9:13:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Just want to point out again I made these points one month ago, and so think differently on them. However its still open for discussion.

I do declare, what is the word on the street nowadays?  There was some phrase I recall that quite adequately summed up the traditional rebuttal to the Original Poster's post.  Now what was it... Oh yes!

"Cry some more, noob!!"


Actually its called intelligent discussion to help balance the game. But I forgot that wasnt allowed on these forums with people like you who state the game has no imba's and balance shouldnt be discussed. Anyway, like I said, I posted those points 1 month ago and things have changed.

Instead of claiming someone is a noob why dont we organise a 2v2/3v3 match and see how long you last ?

June 15, 2009 2:23:58 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting dgl-DalzK,
Just want to point out again I made these points one month ago, and so think differently on them. However its still open for discussion.



Instead of claiming someone is a noob why dont we organise a 2v2/3v3 match and see how long you last ?

I am up for that challenge 2v2 3v3 whatever it takes

June 15, 2009 5:07:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Oddly enough, I think the game is remarkably balanced compared to other GPG games that have come out.  I have played them all, Chris Taylor has serious talent in that regard.

So here is why I think this game is balanced.  Every game like this is either decided by a singular gameplay strategy (i.e. an imba strategy) that everyone adopts, or it is decided on the skill of the player.  Discussions like this will never get resolved because you have input comming in from all the different tiers of players. 

So, tier 1 - the Beginner..  just got the game....  this player will say anything they get killed by quickly is OP. 

tier 2 - been killed alot, this player has found 1, maybe 2 strategies that allow them to survive longer than some other player.  Not winning yet, but able to stick around and start seeing how fun this game could be if they just play more.

tier 3 - Killing some, getting killed some.  Still getting ganked by very skilled players.  Lots of frustration because they think they know the game well enough to be considered competent.  But they are not. 

tier 4 - Wins most games, starts seeing the real metagame that the good-great players have started to adopt.  They start thinking about mid game early, then start reacting strategically to advanced gameplay from their opponents.  This is where the game starts getting fun.

tier 5 - hey, your a good player, acting on instinct and thoughful consideration.  Talent defines who wins more often than not.  Everyone is good, sometimes you lose, sometimes you win...   sometimes you plain fk up and get ganked...   just not very often.

The problem here is that at any one point in these tiers, a player is going to have drastically different opinions about what is imba and what is not.  What combos are pissing them off today, as opposed to tomorrow. 

So far, I have found that if you play someone in the same tier as yourself, player skill has WAY more to do with the outcome of the game than any one of the proposed strategies.  Personally, this is what I would call the ultimate definition of balanced.

anyway, that is my assessment. 

For the record, Core lvl 1 bombers were imba. 

Snake

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