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Demigod May 14th new version

By on May 14, 2009 3:43:13 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

It’s been another crazy week of re-architecting the way multiplayer match-making works to handle the number of users. 

Today we are pleased to announce the new update:

Here’s what’s new for this week:

  • Additional connectivity optimizations and improvements
  • Lord Erebus: Bite's Mana Cost increased, Damage decreased, Armor Reduction decreased
  • Fix for looping audio track after leaving character select screens
  • Fix for audio volumes not being reset on restart
  • Adding /skipintro command line to bypass intro movies
  • Players will remain connected to facilitator if they fail to connect to other players, provided they can connect to the host. The host ultimately can kick people with problematic connections to others.
  • Favor Items fixes, but still some assorted issues that should be addressed in the next update.
  • Major optimizations to audio on low fidelity settings
  • Fixed bug that occurred if you used an ability after issuing an attack command. This is the "won't chase the demigod I clicked" bug.
  • Sending deltas for partially completed achievements.
  • Each player now saves their own achievements and favor items
  • Fixed partial Achievement saves bug.
  • Fixed a bug that occurred if you accomplished an achievement in game.
  • Fixed a bug in disconnect dialog that would try to update it even if we had determined we did not want to show it
  • Changed resample rate to 24k in Low settings
  • Delayed FMOD initialization until audio LOD is set via options
  • Disabled hitbox interference from announcer messages.
  • Life's Child no longer removes Inner Grace (Sedna fix)

Now, that said, what’s NOT in this update?

  • Robust multiple IP support.  If you are talking to the Internet with more than 1 IP, you may have a harder time connecting. This is because you might connect to 1 player with 1 IP and to another player with a different IP.  We have gotten new code from Raknet to address this but it will take time to integrate and test.
  • Better NAT. We have a slew of improvements to the NAT thanks to the Raknet update we got this week but again, it will take time to integrate and test.
  • Route through host.  This works and we came “this” close to putting it in.  The problem is, not all players are really in a position to be routed through.  Now, my machine could do it. But we don’t have a way for Billy Bob with his DSL line from trying to host a game with 10 players. 
  • Route through dedicated proxy.  This too works but we do not have the code in that lets it intelligently pick which proxy (i.e. someone in Japan is not going to want to use a proxy in Virginia). 

And lastly, let’s talk about 5 on 5.

There have been other peer to peer games.  But the connectivity complexity is C = D * N*(N-1) where N is the number of players and D is the raw data being exchanged.   While Demigod supports 5 on 5 multiplayer in custom, LAN, and single player, I have to tell you, unless you know who you are playing with, you’re asking for trouble if you try to do this with strangers.  Even if you manage to find 10 random people to play with online and they all manage to connect to each other, when you get in game, because the game is synced, you’re going to likely have a non-ideal experience. 

Let’s work through the formula where let’s assume D = 10.

With a 3 on 3 game, which, according to what I’ve seen in Supreme Commander, is the typical largest game people get into, C = 300.  On Battle.net with Starcraft, the max number of players is 8.  C = 560.  But when you go to 10 players, C = 900, nearly double the complexity of trying to do an 8 player game.

What our work has been these last 2 weeks has been to re-architect the system so that we can bring down that D multiplier. That’s the only part we can control.

When trying to connect players together, each player, based on their internet connection and PC performance has their own threshold of what variable C can reach before things fall apart.

In the beta, we were able to bring our variable D down by adding more servers.  And most beta testers had high end connections and PCs so they had relatively high thresholds before variable C had problems.

But clearly, in release, that threshold turned out to be a lot less.  The first inkling that our D variable was way too high was that the pirates who were pounding the server that first week were able to overwhelm our servers.  To put things in perspective, Impulse typically gets around 300,000 users using it each day and it doesn’t even break a sweat.  But a mere 140,000 connections that first week brought Demigod’s online experience to its knees.

We were able to get a reprieve that first week by shuffling users off to a new set of servers to get them away from the warez users. But as the game has continued to sell (and it looks like it’s going to break the 100k milestone shortly).

So the thing we continue to do is try to lower that D variable so that more and more people with marginal systems can get in.  There will likely be lots more updates as we find new ways to squeeze it. In the meantime, your best hope is to try not to go nuts with the # of players unless you know them.

We will probably have another small update tomorrow as we continue to refine this.

+912 Karma | 75 Replies
May 14, 2009 5:12:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Xan,

Quoting Shink, reply 3Jesus Christ.

My best friend has had the game since day one, and hasn't been able to connect online. At all. To anybody.

He has Verizon DSL and I tested everything down to reinstalling windows, removing all routing, and plugging directly into the modem.

Every week, I throw out the hope that "The proxy stuff is coming, then you should be able to get through. Then you can finally play."

This is the third time i've been made to look like a fool.
I hear the waaaaaahbulance.  Tell your friend to return the game then.


I think I hear the....what?

Oh. the waaaaahbulance. I got it. That's funny. It is. Because i'm whining. Wah, wah. Yes. Very clever.

meanwhile, you make a double post of sycophantic pricktitude. You're a class act Xan.

dick.

May 14, 2009 5:15:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Shink,

Quoting Xan, reply 23
Quoting Shink, reply 3Jesus Christ.

My best friend has had the game since day one, and hasn't been able to connect online. At all. To anybody.

He has Verizon DSL and I tested everything down to reinstalling windows, removing all routing, and plugging directly into the modem.

Every week, I throw out the hope that "The proxy stuff is coming, then you should be able to get through. Then you can finally play."

This is the third time i've been made to look like a fool.
I hear the waaaaaahbulance.  Tell your friend to return the game then.

I think I hear the....what?

Oh. the waaaaahbulance. I got it. That's funny. It is. Because i'm whining. Wah, wah. Yes. Very clever.

meanwhile, you make a double post of sycophantic pricktitude. You're a class act Xan.

dick.

 

May 14, 2009 5:17:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This was a great update.

 

You start with patch notes, then lead into talking about how Demigod's P2P system isn't as good as Starcraft's and will take time to surpass Starcraft's P2P system.  Which then heads into piracy being the cause of Demigod's ability to compete with Starcraft's 10+ year old system.

 

I hope something works out but this babble makes me lose faith.

May 14, 2009 5:23:23 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

there is a waaaaahbulance emoticon , use it!  

May 14, 2009 5:26:23 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I just hope the netcode gets optimized. I can play a 4v4 COH with my connection, but can't play more then 2v2 DG.

Dota is fine 5v5, but its a client/server system where only the host needs to have good upload (although it doesn't really need to be that good - you can host a 5v5 with 768k upstream)

From this perspective, I think that p2p was not a good choice for a game thats has 5v5 games as a main feature unless its netcode is extremely overhead-free. Those typical RTS games with 1v1 and 2v2 can do p2p just fine though.

May 14, 2009 5:35:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yada, yada, yada.

 

No offense, but Warcraft 3 has been doing 6vs6 without lag for at least 5 years.

May 14, 2009 5:45:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Just wondering when we can expect Pantheon matches to be something other than 2v2?

May 14, 2009 5:52:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Covenn,

"Jesus Christ"..... Calm down.

Why are you here bitching for your "Friend", can your friend not read frogboy's updates himself. You realize that you do not need to be the "fool" messenger right? Perhaps if your friend actually read Frogboys updates, he would realize all the hard work and effort that is being put into fixing the connectivity problems. While yes the situation is highly frustrating, they are working extremely hard to correct the problems. Your friend can either continue to be patient, and wait it out, or he can take up Stardocks offer for a full refund.

That was fairly obnoxious.  Brad and co. are putting in a tremendous amount of work to get things fixed, to be sure, and I laud them for it.  But the guy's got a right to be complaining, and if his friend bought Demigod on his recommendation, he kind of owes it to him to be the one passing along updates.  I quite like Stardock, and I love Demigod, but I was in a very similar situation.  Until the last connectivity fixes, my best friend couldn't connect me, either.  For a LOT of players, there was a considerable period of "It'll be fixed real soon!" and it wasn't.  I don't blame Stardock that it's taken so long.  I'm a QA tester by profession, and my friend is a programmer.  We both know estimates slip, and well thought-out plans don't always work.  But at the same time, Brad Wardell (Frogboy) was the fellow touting the highly laudable "Gamer's Bill of Rights" a while back.  Ever read that?  Number two on the list Brad wrote up:

2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

For a substantial number of players, code/systems that would allow them to connect were not ready out of the box.  I totally praise Brad for the work he and his team (and GPG) have put in since launch.  I couldn't ask them to work harder, and wouldn't if I could.  But at the end of the day, people paid money for this game, and as long as they're going to be reasonably civil, they've got a right to feel a bit irate that they paid for something that's flat out non-functional for them, and all the effort in the world is only so much good without results.  My friend and I are all set now (thanks entirely to the work Stardock's done since launch), so thanks Stardock, truly.  But it needs to be born in mind that there are still people out there with a completely legitimate gripe right now, and Brad set the bar high for himself with that Gamer's Bill of Rights.

Best wishes, both to Stardock in their work to get it all resolved, and to those who still can't connect.

May 14, 2009 6:01:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

At least you get 2v2s.

My last 3 games have been:

1v1 (against another player) which didn't get registered.

3v3 with only me being an actual player.

2v3 where I have 2 AIs and the other team are both human players (altho looking at the stats, one of them isn't even listed as having played). 

Basically, it just becomes a game where as soon as u start, u know who has won cos it comes down to who has more AIs on their team (ie the more u have, the more u will lose).

The irony is, it's getting to a point where Stardock journals are counting AGAINST the game.

I used to love the daily (twice daily even) journals from Frogboy.

The problem is that now I think, well, u've had my cash for a month and my play experience gets worse with every patch.

Bit of a problem in a game in which there's no point in playing single player.

May 14, 2009 6:06:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thanks for keeping us updated, and try not to let the trollettes get you down. I am one of those who are having the connectivity issues, but I am adult enough to realize that pissing and moaning about it won't do anyone any good. I doubt that very few, if any of the whiners have the basic smarts to even begin to understand the enourmous complexity of what you are attempting to do.

Know that the overwhelming majority of players understand, to one degree or another, the task you are facing, and support you 100%.

IMHO, the only people that should be allowed to post on the forums are those who can prove that they are old enough to grow some fuzz on their nutsack.

My situation may be a bit unique, and there is the very real possibility that it may never be fixed. Even in that circumstance, I just want you to know that I had an incredibly fun run through the beta, and don't in any way feel cheated or misled. My respect for you has only grown through these difficult times, and I remain a strong supporter. Good luck, and in any case, I'll see you in the world of Elemental.

May 14, 2009 6:08:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Plankzula,
This was a great update.

 

You start with patch notes, then lead into talking about how Demigod's P2P system isn't as good as Starcraft's and will take time to surpass Starcraft's P2P system.  Which then heads into piracy being the cause of Demigod's ability to compete with Starcraft's 10+ year old system.

 

I hope something works out but this babble makes me lose faith.

 

You're right. It doesn't make sense and I lost faith 6 updates ago. This continued reassurance to "fix" problems is unnacceptable. GPG simply did not release a complete product and have been using our $40 to finish a title that should have performed properly out of the box--not to mention a full month after release.  And no, I do not want a refund--I want the finished product that is advertised on the box. This kind of nonsense needs to be reported to the better business bureau or something. Simply offering a refund to people that are not satisfied is quite the cop out, especially this late after release.

Hopefully Stardock learned something and does not have to deal with lackluster developers like this in the future.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong--I loved GPG's work with Dungeon Siege and SupCom--but none of those issues come close to the clusterf*%& of problems in Demigod. Quite simply, this release is an embarressment and is a perfect example of how developers are forced to release unfinished products due to deadlines/lack of funds. I'm assuming it was the latter, and to top it off they have the audacity to use the funds from consumers who bought the broken product to attempt to finish it. People don't buy a lawnmower (or anything, really) expecting it to work properly 6 months later.

May 14, 2009 6:23:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Mistralok,
Thanks for keeping us updated, and try not to let the trollettes get you down. I am one of those who are having the connectivity issues, but I am adult enough to realize that pissing and moaning about it won't do anyone any good. I doubt that very few, if any of the whiners have the basic smarts to even begin to understand the enourmous complexity of what you are attempting to do.

Know that the overwhelming majority of players understand, to one degree or another, the task you are facing, and support you 100%.

IMHO, the only people that should be allowed to post on the forums are those who can prove that they are old enough to grow some fuzz on their nutsack.

IMHO, the only people that should be allowed to post on the forums are those who can prove they will entertain me in some fashion. I'll show you my fuzz if you show me something that makes me chuckle. One of us will get to stay.

Really though, fuzz on the nutsack. You are clearly all growed up. And assuming anyone who expresses a dissenting opinion is doing so out of ignorance? WE BETTER JUST SHUT THOSE FUCKERS UP.

I know I haven't acquitted myself in a particularly mature fashion either, but damn dude. Fuzz on the nutsack? Really!?

 

In any case, I've been enthusiastically supporting and urging my buddy to hop on the community site and check out these updates. I constantly explained how hard these guys are working. And ever since that first time, a few weeks ago, I've been saying "It's coming, man. This time, FOR SURE!"

But you know what? It didn't. It hasn't. It doesn't even look like it will in any timely fashion at this point. And at this point, my reassurances have become comedic. And i'm sick of it.

If the hostility of my post puts you off from getting the point, good. I'm glad. Now you can scroll up and read Locklear93's more eloquent, less enflamed, astoundingly accurate take on why I'm getting uppity.

May 14, 2009 6:27:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

My situation may be a bit unique, and there is the very real possibility that it may never be fixed. Even in that circumstance, I just want you to know that I had an incredibly fun run through the beta, and don't in any way feel cheated or misled. My respect for you has only grown through these difficult times, and I remain a strong supporter. Good luck, and in any case, I'll see you in the world of Elemental.

 

WTF? Are you on their payroll? You don't feel cheated or misled paying $40 to participate in what is essentially a beta release? I wish I had your patience--or at least wish I didn't study business in college.

May 14, 2009 6:32:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Mistralok,
Thanks for keeping us updated, and try not to let the trollettes get you down. I am one of those who are having the connectivity issues, but I am adult enough to realize that pissing and moaning about it won't do anyone any good. I doubt that very few, if any of the whiners have the basic smarts to even begin to understand the enourmous complexity of what you are attempting to do.

Know that the overwhelming majority of players understand, to one degree or another, the task you are facing, and support you 100%.

IMHO, the only people that should be allowed to post on the forums are those who can prove that they are old enough to grow some fuzz on their nutsack.

My situation may be a bit unique, and there is the very real possibility that it may never be fixed. Even in that circumstance, I just want you to know that I had an incredibly fun run through the beta, and don't in any way feel cheated or misled. My respect for you has only grown through these difficult times, and I remain a strong supporter. Good luck, and in any case, I'll see you in the world of Elemental.

 

i loled , think a lot of us here who post are older then you think.

so your saying the older you get the more you let people sell you unfinished items  ?

the older im getting the more im going back with my stake when its not done properly ,people have the right to be pissed when its in this state.

May 14, 2009 6:47:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Locklear93,


That was fairly obnoxious.  Brad and co. are putting in a
tremendous amount of work to get things fixed, to be sure, and I laud
them for it.  But the guy's got a right to be complaining, and if
his friend bought Demigod on his recommendation, he kind of owes it to
him to be the one passing along updates.  I quite like Stardock,
and I love Demigod, but I was in a very similar situation.  Until
the last connectivity fixes, my best friend couldn't connect me,
either.  For a LOT of players, there was a considerable period of
"It'll be fixed real soon!" and it wasn't.  I don't blame Stardock
that it's taken so long.  I'm a QA tester by profession, and my
friend is a programmer.  We both know estimates slip, and well
thought-out plans don't always work.  But at the same time, Brad
Wardell (Frogboy) was the fellow touting the highly laudable "Gamer's
Bill of Rights" a while back.  Ever read that?  Number two on
the list Brad wrote up:

2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

For a substantial number of players, code/systems that would allow
them to connect were not ready out of the box.  I totally praise
Brad for the work he and his team (and GPG) have put in since
launch.  I couldn't ask them to work harder, and wouldn't if I
could.  But at the end of the day, people paid money for this
game, and as long as they're going to be reasonably civil, they've got
a right to feel a bit irate that they paid for something that's flat
out non-functional for them, and all the effort in the world is only so
much good without results.  My friend and I are all set now
(thanks entirely to the work Stardock's done since launch), so thanks
Stardock, truly.  But it needs to be born in mind that there are
still people out there with a completely legitimate gripe right now,
and Brad set the bar high for himself with that Gamer's Bill of Rights.

Best wishes, both to Stardock in their work to get it all resolved, and to those who still can't connect.

 

Best post in this thread. I wrote a civil but firm email to Stardock requesting a refund. They didn't reply, which was okay since I've decided to stay with DG for now.

But despite Brad's explanations of the situation, I simply cannot understand how this is a "new" problem in the gaming world. Trying to make a melee-heavy multiplayer game isn't something new, is it? It doesn't seem like the revolutionary part of DG is the tehcnology behind it at all...

Also, why wasn't some sort of "free weekend" stress test done during beta? Wouldn't that have invited not only more people onto the servers, but also people with inferior connections and specs?

I hate to add to the complaints here, but another thing which gets me is the paucity of content upon release. It's just a shame that all this time being wasted on fixing the game is not being devoted towards expanding the number of maps, making the items more interesting, working on new DGs, etc.

May 14, 2009 6:52:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This was a great update.  I've not really had trouble getting into games in the past but the speed in which games are getting going now it looks like you guys got it.

May 14, 2009 6:54:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The older you get, the less fanboy you become cos that money you spent, you worked hard for.

Not only that, you've experienced so many games that are simply unfinished at launch (SupCom was a steaming pile that basically memory leaked itself to oblivion at first and GPGnet... well.. less said about that the better) or didn't deliver what it promised (Aoc, WAR) that you get tired of putting up with it.

You also get tired of people saying, yeah, it's really difficult so give them a break.

I'm sorry but how many games have we seen where it totally falls over when it comes to multiplayer cos 'it worked in beta but there were loads more people at launch'?

May 14, 2009 6:56:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Additional connectivity optimizations and improvements

 

Thnx for the new patch... oww I forgot... Yeah, since you implemented those FIXES we've been getting NAT FACILITATOR / endless queues / random dc's problems...

 

tyvm for screwing the game experience once again.

May 14, 2009 7:05:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

so...

 

https://forums.demigodthegame.com/347031

 

...

 

do i get an "I told you so" award now?

 

in any case, thanks for the update. keep plugging away at it. 

May 14, 2009 7:10:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

 

Why didn't starduck license GameSpy or some proven system?  Wish I was playing Red Alert over Kali with a full house...at least that worked back in '96.

 

 

May 14, 2009 7:28:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting transitive,
so...

 

https://forums.demigodthegame.com/347031

 

...

 

do i get an "I told you so" award now?

 

in any case, thanks for the update. keep plugging away at it. 

 

we could try giving you an "I told you so" achievement, but they still not working... youll have to wait

May 14, 2009 7:50:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

There have been other peer to peer games.  But the connectivity complexity is C = D * N*(N-1) where N is the number of players and D is the raw data being exchanged.

Let’s work through the formula where let’s assume D = 10.

With a 3 on 3 game, which, according to what I’ve seen in Supreme Commander, is the typical largest game people get into, C = 300.  On Battle.net with Starcraft, the max number of players is 8.  C = 560.  But when you go to 10 players, C = 900, nearly double the complexity of trying to do an 8 player game.

I'm probably just not getting something, but... in many fps games there can be up to 32 players. 32*31=992, 10*9=90. So... is the D value in Demigod more than 10 times greater than you'd find in any fps? Because otherwise I don't see how this is such a huge problem...

 

*Note: Just curiosity here, I know you guys work hard.

May 14, 2009 8:08:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting SolaceAvatar,

I'm probably just not getting something, but... in many fps games there can be up to 32 players. 32*31=992, 10*9=90. So... is the D value in Demigod more than 10 times greater than you'd find in any fps? Because otherwise I don't see how this is such a huge problem...

FPS games use a client/server model. So there is just 1 connection for each client to the server, and the server would have up to 32 connections.

May 14, 2009 8:10:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Games for windows live imo

May 14, 2009 8:12:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I have to disagree with the statement that 3v3 is the max typical SupCom game.  I have played hundreds of custom games of SupCom, and at least half of those have been 4v4.  In the first couple months of SupCom's life, there were problems with desyncs, etc.  In the last year, it has worked pretty well.  So it is achievable, even with several thousand units in play, which is typical SupCom.

 

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