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Demigod: Tuesday 5/12/2009

By on May 12, 2009 12:42:35 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Well last night we released an update to the general public and it was a cluster. After investigating it, it appears that much of it had to do with users with the beta and users with the release getting into each others games (the version numbers of the exe and dll were the same and that’s what the servers check on). We also found and fixed the issue where people were ending up with “Test” names which occurred mostly when people with the beta were joining games hosted by someone with the release. And lastly, we found a case where a debug statement could cause a lobby crash when someone exited.

Anyway, they’re copying up the new update now but due to the time of day, the interwebs, they be slow this time of day.

This update doesn’t have the new EXE we received from GPG.  We wanted to get an update out quickly that took care of as much of the pain from last night as possible.

Meanwhile, the Raknet developer is here working with the Impulse team on the proxy updates that we hope will be up this week also.  I want to double check with GPG to make sure the favor point stuff is really nailed down here.

For those of you having problems, I share your continued frustration. I apologize for the inconvenience.  We have our top people working on this.  I wish I could say “Oh, it’s a bug and here’s how to fix it” but it’s simply a lot more complex than that when it comes to putting together a P2P match making system that has to work with so many different setups.

One of the things we’re doing on our end is to come up with an internal proxy system that will let people connect to other people via people they can connect to (got that?).

Let me draw a picture.

Here’s how P2P works today:

imageAlice must be able to connect to Bill, Sally, and John.

1.00

When Demigod shipped (1.0) Alice would call a NAT facilitator that would give Alice the IP address and port number to connect with Bill, Sally, and John.  The problem with that is that if Alice failed to connect to anyone, she couldn’t get into the lobby and NAT facilitation is slow.

1.00.076

With today’s update, Alice will first try to directly connect to Bill, Sally, and John on port 6112. If those people have that port open and forwarded to their PC, it will connect quickly. If that fails, it will resort back to the slow NAT.  If they connect to at least the host in a custom game, they enter the lobby and then begin trying to connect to everyone else in the lobby. Then, the host can at least pick and choose which people to keep and not keep if there’s someone with a poor net connection.

1.01

With the next update, it will work like this:

imageIn the event Alice can’t connect directly to Sally but could to Bill and John, our system will route the traffic through Bill and John based on who has the best ping.

Now, if Bill and John both disconnected from the game, Alice would get zapped.  But on the other hand, if Alice could only connect to 1 person (some people with Qwest have this problem) she could still play in a 10 person game because the other 8 people would be connected to her via the person she has a direct connection to.  The good news is, we have this working internally right now.  It’s not some theory but something we’re testing.  The bad news is that it probably won’t come up until next week.  But if this system works, it opens the door to all kinds of highly robust multiplayer scenarios.  Now if only we had thought of this a month ago…


 

+912 Karma | 90 Replies
May 12, 2009 3:32:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting XaosII,
What i dont really understand about Demigod was what were you guys trying to do in the first place compared to "traditional" RTS games that warranted a different system?

I'm not a network guy by any means, but it seems like the regular model of joining a lobby, having a player as a host (and server), then launching the game worked just fine. What made you guys decide something different? What was it that made the traditional approach not desireable?

When a multiplayer game actually occurs, the results for the player seems fairly identical to many other RTS games, but there are added hassles of connection issues before the game starts.

 

The idea they were going for was that if everybody can directly connect to everybody else, you eliminate a hop and thus some lag in how fast things respond to commands.

 

IE: Normal client/server game. I do something. You're the host. Other people see it when I send it to you, and you send it to them. With the Demigod setup, I'd send it to all of them, and they'd see it one hop faster.

 

Now that obviously has other problems (namely getting everybody connected to everybody), but that was their idea. Just one of those cases where a good idea on paper doesn't work so well in reality.

May 12, 2009 4:06:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

ow is it that something that obviously broken could be so easily noticed by half a dozen forum regulars and not brought to dev's attention during the beta process? Are your testers doing their job, or should the question be "are your beta administrators doing theirs"?

 

I should probably point out that some of us never ran into that bug during the beta -- and while I wasn't in the 'ten thousand hours' club, I did have a couple hundred hours logged in.  I only started facing this bug post release, and then rarely.  As rook, I've encountered it maybe three times.  Maybe.

 

When I play UB, however...  well, lets just say there's something to be said for testing on a variety of characters more than just once or twice, since I run into the bug about 10 times a game when I try UB.

May 12, 2009 4:10:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So about two weeks ago when i thought to myself, "Why can't players act as proxy servers for each other", I should have actually said something

May 12, 2009 4:24:02 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

My multiplayer connection rating beta 2: 1/10 Beta 3: 3/10 Week before release: 4/10 Day 0: 1/10 Week 1: 5/10 Today: 6/10

Thats actually quite promising. Considering the outside factors(broken release date/pirates) drop Day 0 from that list and you get. .1, .3, .4, .5, .6

Thats a nice pattern.

May 12, 2009 4:36:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Ok.. Frog, when you see that Raknet guy in the office.  You need to whip him with a wet noodle for me. 

May 12, 2009 4:36:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I was having a wee tanty last night over not being able to connect at all and having people ask me to stop trying to connect to them but you know what? Stuff it. it will be fixed and when it does it will be awesome. Throw in some new demigods and more maps  to keep it fresh and this game will have people playing for a long time to come

May 12, 2009 4:45:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Got the update tonight, 113 or something. Oh my God it is good. Big up's to SD and GPG.

May 12, 2009 4:51:46 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

My last post didn't post, so I hope i'm not lagging in a double post here, but there's a few things I think you guys need to hear.

First of all I just got done playing with this new update installed and I can tell everyone that the problems from last night are gone. Getting into the lobby: great. Starting the game: great (everyone made it). Game: great (no disconnect, rage quits, or net splits).

So this brings me to my point. I have been an avid PC gamer for over a decade. I've noticed that game publishers recently just want to push out a game, give it a snappy cover and catchy jingle in the trailer and they are done with it. Buy it, and if the game doesn't work for you don't worry we'll patch it once and be done with it. Customer satisfaction is a dying commodity when it comes to PC game publishers and it's disappointing, because I find platform systems very weak with limited and poorly designed controls (just my opinion, go away fanboy). The "never buy a bad game again" commercial makes me crack up, a lot. Especially after buying the poorly-ported-to-PC Saints Row 2. Which doesn't work even if you exceed the recommended specs. They put out one patch that didn't even fix the game, and now I have a $50 lump of plastic that I'm stuck with for no good reason.

Thank you guys for not moving on to the next project and writing this game off. This game is great and I'm so delighted that the entire spectrum of involvment is still involved in making this game playable and enjoyable. Thank you, again. Above and beyond by today's standards.

May 12, 2009 5:07:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thanks alot for the hard work! I hope your internal, positive connection tests will also be positive in the world wide net.

 

Are you all thinking what I'm thinking?

Yep, Demigod has at least two girls playing.

 

OMG this must be like the funniest statement (in relationship to Fragboy's explanation) I read in the last months!      

May 12, 2009 5:08:58 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Obviously, people on Qwest need to call and threaten to switch providers if they don't fix their Interwebz.

May 12, 2009 5:10:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Who's Alice?  And is Nancy cute?

May 12, 2009 5:16:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

We need to have pics.  Make a thread called "Girls of Demigod"

May 12, 2009 5:17:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So, will favor finally get fixed? Points are not accumlating from playing custom games.

May 12, 2009 5:18:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

What if the ones you are connected through (because you couldnt connect direct to another player) are your opposition and they bail because they are losing? I'm talking about the new design

May 12, 2009 5:35:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Even when I do have technical problems, I am always made happy by the latest Frogboy journal.

May 12, 2009 6:04:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

personaly i think when you login for multiplayer the login server should test if your ports are open.

if it finds you have them opened correctly then it should keep you the fuck away from the useless peice of shit NAT servers which are still giving me errors / kicks even though i have a direct open connection and no need whatsoever for anything the fuck to do with NAT. (there you finaly drove me to swearing)

you could also set your custom game to only allow players with good connectivity ratings. It seems at the moment that the options are very dumbed down to allow the least amount of customisation when hosting.

also why not make some use of uPNP, since its so widely supported it seems silly to just ignore it when its essentialy design to facilitate what your trying to do with p2p in DG.

 

May 12, 2009 6:29:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, I tried for an hour today to get into a game (after today's update), could not make it into even one (first time ever).  Entire time was filled with people popping into lobbys (which happens very fast now), scanning everyones ping, and exiting the lobby.  It was like being at a buss station.  But I'll try again tonight to see if everyone getting the same patch/update might help.

May 12, 2009 6:32:17 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I have the same problem as purplepaladin. I could play fine before yesterday's update. 

May 12, 2009 6:35:42 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting novex,
personaly i think when you login for multiplayer the login server should test if your ports are open.

if it finds you have them opened correctly then it should keep you the fuck away from the useless peice of shit NAT servers which are still giving me errors / kicks even though i have a direct open connection and no need whatsoever for anything the fuck to do with NAT. (there you finaly drove me to swearing)

you could also set your custom game to only allow players with good connectivity ratings. It seems at the moment that the options are very dumbed down to allow the least amount of customisation when hosting.

also why not make some use of uPNP, since its so widely supported it seems silly to just ignore it when its essentialy design to facilitate what your trying to do with p2p in DG.

 
uPNP would be nice, but doesn't seem to be supported by their RakNet library. Why can't you have an implicit requirement that a host has ports open, then let the host system act as the nat server? Then you have a distributed NAT punchthrough system that wouldn't have the slowness problems. Proxy connections are a good idea too, but that obviously "doubles" ping. I wonder how practical it will end-up being.

May 12, 2009 6:47:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Shedding,
We need to have pics.  Make a thread called "Girls of Demigod"

 

They would be Demigoddesses

May 12, 2009 7:48:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

SkyNAT, scary!

I think we've all waited long enough now that we wouldn't mind waiting longer a bit longer.  You guys should test these patches for a day or half a day, to find problems that should be coming up within the first several games, before you release them.  There is no other way to get around the fact that each new patch that fails to work as intended makes you guys look that much worse.

May 12, 2009 7:50:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I really like how you guys are sharing all of these things your doing in detail. Its nice to know whats going into making this game great. I am one of those who has gotten really frustrated with it and would normally be pissed that I spent 40 bucks to play something so broke. But, reading the processes by which you guys are fixing all the problems has really made me love the experience. I can't wait to see what you guys have in store for us. Keep up the great work!

May 12, 2009 7:50:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting doubledigit,
My problem is, who's this Alice you keep talking about?  

Seriously, who the fuck is Alice?

 

scnr

May 12, 2009 8:11:14 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

hmm ...

worried you might be opening a new can of worms trying to go through one palyers machine to another ...

even if it does work, i'm thinking more lag, more desyncs, more disconnects

though i hope it works if you guys are commited to the design.

May 12, 2009 8:25:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hi Guys

 

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but could someone make a changelog page (instead of the forum format)? My friends and I are trying to keep up with the updates as we have multiplayer issues, but its confusing because when someone comments on Frogboy's post it changes the ordering of the thread - sometimes I end up reading the same post again, or am unsure which thread goes first (especially if there are 2 threads in quick succession within 24-48 hours so they are dated similarly).

 

A simple HTML page with dates and a link to the right forum would be sufficient.

 

Thanks.

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