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Demigod: A new day

By on May 4, 2009 11:24:27 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Our story so far...

The initial release of Demigod was marred due to us not taking into account pirates trying to get validated when we set up our network infrastructure. This resulted in the multiplayer game being basically unplayable which resulted in some pretty negative first day reviews.

48 hours later, we set up an alternative network for legitimate players, released a Demigod update and most people were able to connect - but with a big catch:

Demigod also debuted with a technology internally referred to as "Super NAT". The idea was to let people be able to connect to other people without having to mess with routers or anything.  And it worked great in theory.  In the beta, we noticed that the connection servers required a lot of resources to do their thing quickly. No problem, we added more servers and added still more again for the release.  But that turned out to have been a vast under-estimation still as it wasn't a linear progression but an exponential one.

So over the past 2 weeks, we ditched what we had and started from scratch.  Late last week, because we realized that time is of the essence, the Impulse team at Stardock got assigned to the project and we began to use Impulse tech to build something new.

The new system supports Direct Connection (which is pretty traditional - port forwarding). If that fails, it will use NAT negotiation. And if that fails it'll hook up to a series of Proxy servers to handle it.

Tonight

The proxy services will not be in tonight's build because of the lateness and we don't want to put that up and then leave for the evening only to wake up in the morning, go over to Shack News or Voodoo Extreme and see a headline "Stardock's Network becomes sentient, begins world conquest!" or something. So we'll wait until Wednesday during the daylight hours to turn that part on.

We are marking this build as a BETA still since it's so late into the evening we don't want to take any chances.

Expected Results

This update isn't the end all, be all update. This week is the week of putting this pain behind us.  Tonight's update is just the first step. Without the proxy, you'll still have people who will fail on the NAT and we are sure, given the sheer quantity of changes, that there will probably be some problem in there since we've had to take out most of the licensed code and replace it with Impulse code. But based on what we're seeing it should be much better for most people.  

If you are one of the people who it doesn't work for, hang in there.  If you are part of the majority who is having no problem with Demigod, I realize that we keep focusing on connectivity versus game enhancements or improving the Pantheon and such it's just that my first priority is to make sure everyone can play the game online as well as single player.  

The team at GPG and at Stardock are already working on v1.01 which will have the kinds of new features and such our users are used to seeing in Stardock games.  But we have felt it would be in bad taste to talk about new features while there are people who couldn't play online so I hope you understand why we've not been talking about that yet.

Testing

So now we’re testing it with people on the chat channels and learning lots of things that we can now pass on to you.

Below are some suggestions for connecting faster. You don't have to do them but they will make a huge difference in how fast you connect and how widely you can connect to other people.

First if your router has an SPI “firewall” you may find you have a better experience if you turn it off. SPI firewalls provide good protection against random packets coming in but the downside is that on some consumer routers, it will prevent you from directly connecting to another player forcing the NAT servers (which are far slower) to pick up the slack.

image

 

Next: You need to make sure your router is port forwarding to ports 6100 through 6200 to whatever IP address your computer is using.  Don’t assume your machine is that IP address because there’s a good chance it’s not.

image

 

If you do these things right, you’ll be able to DIRECT-Connect with the new Impulse Reactor we’re releasing tonight. If you don’t, it will fail over to the new Impulse Reactor NAT negotiation system we’ve been working on the past 2 weeks which is a thousand times better than what we already have out  but it will slow everyone down.

If THAT fails, then it really gets painful because then you’re going to be sent over to one of the Proxy servers. These sound great in theory and they have the nice advantage of working basically 100% of the time but it will probably take us weeks to set up enough of these to make everyone happy because we have to locate them near you otherwise lag will be high.

If you're afraid of port forwarding go here: http://www.portforward.com/

ONCE IN GAME

The next thing we’ve discovered: There is a lot of software out there now that packet sniffs.  Anti-virus programs even Google Desktop.  How do you know if something is sniffing packets on your system? The game will stutter – go for a couple seconds, then pause a bit, go for a couple seconds, pause, and so on.  There’s not much we can do on our end to stop that. You can try lowering your graphics settings but odds are, someone you’re playing has something that’s sniffing through your packets and slowing things down. And it only takes one person in the game to have this to make it stutter for everyone.

BTW, in the 10 person game we were playing, *I* was the one with the firewall applet I had forgotten to turn off that was monitoring packets. So it can happen to the best of us.

The update status

So they’re putting it together now.  It’ll still be a couple hours because of all the uploading that has to do. Everyone’s very excited.

Again: If there are any IT people hanging around reading this, I’m not a network guy but I am being told by people that the fact that the entire backend for this game has been completely re-designed and re-implemented in 2 weeks is super insane.

Once this is up, our team will be talking at length at what was learned.  What I keep being told is this: What works fine for 500 people can totally fall apart for 5,000 people and that’s what we’ve run into in a nutshell for these past 2 weeks.

Known bugs

Tonight's build does have an annoying bug in that it says Sim speed is 0 for you so you can't tell how well you're running. We've informed GPG and it'll get fixed in an upcoming update.

Favor points should acrue without a problem with tonight's build as well.  

+912 Karma | 159 Replies
May 5, 2009 1:39:40 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I have a number of computers behind my router, 2 of them are likely to be playing demigod, usually in the same games.

Is it going to be impossible for me to have both computers use a direct connect?  

Is it possible to direct demigod to use a specific port range?  Or even just a specific subset of the 6100 - 6200 range?

May 5, 2009 1:40:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting sheared,
This is certainly great news, but I ran a test on my computer at Shields Up! with the SPI Firewall turned off versus on (I also have Norton Internet Security 2009 installed on this PC with firewall enabled), and the result was considerably worse after turning off the SPI Firewall in the router.  

Any comments on the loss of security by turning this off versus leaving it on?  Is the risk worth the benefit to one game?  Just looking for others input, because I have no knowledge to base a decision on.  With SPI firewall on, Shields Up! shows stealth on all ports, with it off, most ports were shown as Closed, a few were stealth and port 53 (DNS I think) was opened.  The test indicated I failed.

 

Was just looking into this too.  Netgear states:

"Disable SPI Firewall - The SPI (Stateful Inpection) Firewall protects your LAN against Denial of Service attacks. This should only be disabled in special circumstances."

My results for Shields Up! test were fine.  I have norton firewall as well, but my GF does not have anything on here mac (please don't start, I agree).  She was also fine.  So it doesn't seem to affect me.

May 5, 2009 1:43:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

EDIT - Oops, accidental double post

May 5, 2009 1:49:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

good read, thanks Brad!

May 5, 2009 2:05:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I also forwaded port 6073 to my computer. Is this right, wrong?

May 5, 2009 2:20:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thanks looks like you are starting to sort the problem out... just 2 things:

 

1. Everyone checkout http://portforward.com/  for instructions on how to port forward different software on hundreds of different routers - this place is awesome.   Might be good if someone or stardock got them to put demigod on there.

 

2. I don't understand why no other game I have played, including games on STEAM have no firewall issues like demigod does.  What makes demigod so different that it is so sensitive to things like SPI unlike most other games?  My last router had SPI and it was on all of the time, I played heaps of different online games with no problem.

May 5, 2009 2:23:52 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The port forwarding sounds good - disabling the firewall doesn't!

I don't really want to put the family network open to the elements and I certainly don't want my PC on the DMz. I'll cross fingers you're just been overly cautious regarding the firewall aspect - shouldn't be any reason why a open port would be blocked by the firewall - that is the point of the port forward

May 5, 2009 2:32:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hmmm with the thime to set up the prxys makes me upset. Not for me, my game is wworking fine, beside the bag of bugs:p, but for some i ppl i want to play with its annoying. And putting the firewall down is NOT an option.

I come back in 2 month when he game is more polished. The overall trend ist to release unfinished gams, sad but true.

$Good Luck Stardock keep your work going.

May 5, 2009 2:37:55 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Maybe a list of good firewalls can be created? I mean there must be firewalls with minimal stutter. And I asume having a fast computer will help. That way people can choose to disable firewall or buy a better one.

May 5, 2009 2:45:39 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Sheezwack,
Thanks looks like you are starting to sort the problem out... just 2 things:

 


2. I don't understand why no other game I have played, including games on STEAM have no firewall issues like demigod does.  What makes demigod so different that it is so sensitive to things like SPI unlike most other games?  My last router had SPI and it was on all of the time, I played heaps of different online games with no problem.

 

EVERY RTS out there (and I mean literally EVERY ONE) requires open ports.  If by "games on Steam" you mean like Team Fortress or Left 4 Dead that's because you're connecting to a dedicated server or a dedicated host, a totally different thing.

May 5, 2009 2:49:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Frogboy,


EVERY RTS out there (and I mean literally EVERY ONE) requires open ports.  If by "games on Steam" you mean like Team Fortress or Left 4 Dead that's because you're connecting to a dedicated server or a dedicated host, a totally different thing.

 

Thats fine I have no problem with port forwarding - but I am pretty sure I have NEVER had to turn things like SPI off even with any RTS.  I wasn't referring to port forwarding - if you have a firewall you should know how to port forward.

 

To my understanding the whole point of port forwarding is to allow things to connect while you have your firewall active - you should never have to disable your firewall.

May 5, 2009 2:59:22 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Part 1?

 

Jeez .

 

You really need this on the video game somewhere.  Not everyone comes to visit forums of a video game they play.

May 5, 2009 3:01:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It has been asked in the breakthrough thread, but I have to ask again: can we still use ImpulseReactorOptions.exe to forward our own defined set of ports?

And has the update been released yet?

 

Quoting TheTrav,
I have a number of computers behind my router, 2 of them are likely to be playing demigod, usually in the same games.

Is it going to be impossible for me to have both computers use a direct connect?  

Is it possible to direct demigod to use a specific port range?  Or even just a specific subset of the 6100 - 6200 range?
It's possible with ImpulseReactorOptions.exe. (Hence my question.)

May 5, 2009 3:05:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

2. I don't understand why no other game I have played, including games on STEAM have no firewall issues like demigod does. What makes demigod so different that it is so sensitive to things like SPI unlike most other games? My last router had SPI and it was on all of the time, I played heaps of different online games with no problem.

The reason demigod is different is that it is a peer to peer game.  In most other games there is one server that everyone else connects to to play a game.  In Demigod, every person is connected to every other person.  SPI makes it so that your computer will only accept connections if you have connected to that person first.  In a single server game this works because you connect to the server and it then connects to you.  It seems should be just as easy with peer to peer right?  Well what happens when two people using SPI try to connect to each other?  There is no way for them to connect since they are both denying the connection attempts from each other because they haven't connected to that person first.  Kinda a catch 22.  The way you get around this is by having a 3rd party server that they both connect to.  That server will then help to facilitate their connection to each other.  Apparently the problem with Demigod is that this 3rd party server is slow (Although I think the bigger problem is really that there are just a few edge case bugs with the networking like it thinking people are connected to each other when they really aren't)

When you disable SPI and setup port forwarding you don't have to use the 3rd party server.  Even people with SPI enabled will be able to setup connections directly with you.  The downside is that SPI is a pretty great security measure since people can't just scan your ports for vunerabilities or send you random packets.

May 5, 2009 3:11:16 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I am slightly confused, why would multicast traffic be needed?

Is the reason why the SPI firewall needs to be shut off because OTHER people who do not have ports forwarded might then fail the NAT redirect to you even if you have the right ports open?

A complete answer to the SPI firewall thing would be really appreciated.

 

Edit: didn't see Dest's post before I posted. Seems to answer my important question lol.

May 5, 2009 3:16:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Sheezwack,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 10

EVERY RTS out there (and I mean literally EVERY ONE) requires open ports.  If by "games on Steam" you mean like Team Fortress or Left 4 Dead that's because you're connecting to a dedicated server or a dedicated host, a totally different thing.

 

Thats fine I have no problem with port forwarding - but I am pretty sure I have NEVER had to turn things like SPI off even with any RTS.  I wasn't referring to port forwarding - if you have a firewall you should know how to port forward.

 

To my understanding the whole point of port forwarding is to allow things to connect while you have your firewall active - you should never have to disable your firewall.

It depends on the router.  On the one pictured, port forwarding was NOT happening with that firewall on.

May 5, 2009 3:17:24 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

[quote who="eX^" reply="12" id="2187049"]Part 1?

 

Jeez .

 

You really need this on the video game somewhere.  Not everyone comes to visit forums of a video game they play.[/quote]

Page 20 of the user manual has this in the box.

May 5, 2009 3:18:24 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Known bugs

Tonight's build does have an annoying bug in that it says Sim speed is 0 for you so you can't tell how well you're running. We've informed GPG and it'll get fixed in an upcoming update.
Err, that bug was already in since the latest update (or just the beta update maybe).

May 5, 2009 3:33:53 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
[quote who="eX^" reply="12" id="2187049"]Part 1?

 

Jeez .

 

You really need this on the video game somewhere.  Not everyone comes to visit forums of a video game they play.[/quote]

Page 20 of the user manual has this in the box.

Well, I ordered online.  But great nonetheless.

May 5, 2009 3:33:56 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I know this is probably a lower priority compared to the remaining connection issues (and I appreciate your dilligence in working to resolve these), but have you guys considered adding stutter detection?  I've had many games marred by this and it would be extremely helpful to be able to see this in the game lobby ahead of time.  In many ways this is a larger problem than high latency.

May 5, 2009 3:35:26 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting eX,
Well, I ordered online.  But great nonetheless.
The manual is in the Demigod\bin directory.

May 5, 2009 3:36:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
It depends on the router.  On the one pictured, port forwarding was NOT happening with that firewall on.

 

Okay no worries, I have noticed this on older routers, sometimes the port forwarding just doesn't seem to work correctly.

 

Disabling your firewall should probably be noted as a last resort though, port forwarding should work fine in most modern non-budget routers.  I would imagine it would even work with SPI on for some routers, but you probably have a better chance with it disabled.

May 5, 2009 3:40:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I noticed you updated the OP as well, it is worded much better now and a much more informative post overall - good job.

May 5, 2009 3:48:26 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Update is here!

May 5, 2009 3:51:35 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Keep up the good work! I live on Guam and tend to keep a ping of somewhere above 300 so far, but hopefully that will resolve with time, and I can honestly deal with it if I can play some 5v5's

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