Demigod: Breakthru

Yes!

By Frogboy on May 2, 2009 8:25:44 PM from

Okay, I now feel confident in publicly saying that I think that the connectivity issues some have had is going to go away next week.

Here's what we've built:

1. If you open ports 6112 to 6200 and port forward them to your IP on your router (this is for people who are familiar with this stuff) you'll get what is called direct connect.

2. If you don't do this, we will try to do a quick NAT connect. This takes longer but works for most people.

3. If NAT fails, you will be connected to our Proxy server system. This is not going to be super desireable at first because the physical location of the Proxy server is going to make the difference between a good and a lagfest. When the proxy server is nearby (east coast US player for instance to the east cost proxy server) it's perfectly good. But, for instance, if you're in Japan and it uses a proxy server in Singapore, you're adding 200ms to your latency which can make the game a total lag nightmare. so this is clearly your last result.

...

Now, right now, the current version of Demigod uses a connectivity server that ONLY does option 2. That's because it was decided early on that users shouldn't have to open ports. This, IMO, should NEVER have been the first option because when you force even technically sophisticated users into this system, you end up having a LOT of unnecessary connections to these NAT servers.

...

So, I feel confident that this next week is going to be the turning point for those people who have had connectivity difficulties PLUS the whole range of stat stuff, pantheon stuff, etc. will all come into line as well because, as I've said elsewhere, because the connectivity thing was our #1 priority, everyone, including the people who would resolve favor items and favor points and accurate win/loss stuff have been pulled onto this.

Heck, this past week, I had the ART team from Elemental working on doing benchmarks for speeing up NAT (That's where we finally concluded that NAT, for P2P is just feasible when there's thousands of players, it would simply require so many NAT servers, located around the world, to make it not totally awful that it wasn't financially logical - we'd be better off just hosting all the traffic which is better anyway).

We absolutely do not want to do any more "betas". The betas don't really solve our problems. We're getting rave emails from people in support today saying how this beta "totally fixes connectivity". NO, it doesn't. The only reason it seems that way is because there's so fewer people using the beta servers. If you check impulsereactor.dll, it's still the same one from day 0. So the betas don't really help because it gives us the same false sense of success that the actual open beta had.

The other problem with the beta is that it splits the multiplayer community which is really a problem. Right now, the Demigod MP community is fragmented. You've got a ton of people on Game Ranger. a Bunch of people on Himachi, others on Demigod release and some on the beta. And you get some very poor results hwen you play Skirmish or Pantheon or just find games.

Now one of the things that I've always been painfully aware of in online games is that you need a critical mass of users to make it work. With Demigod, we have some plans on how to make sure there's always lots of people to play with once the MP is bullet proof both in terms of connectivity and stat tracking. As someone who has been ejected from a pantheon game during connection, I know we have to do some QUICK changes to some of this stuff in order for the MP experience to have any integrity.

First, one of the things we did is we have everyone's email address who has updated the game. When we start the next-gen pantheon with favor points, achievements, favor items, stat tracking, disconnects dealt with and of course bullet proof MP (all of which I expect to be done this week) we will email everyone letting them know where we are at.

Second, the Stardock marketing push will actually begin. After that day 0 debacle with the MP connectivity being so crummy, I made marketing halt all Demigod marketing efforts. Those will go into high gear probably in the third week of May.

Third, and this is where we need your help: The demo. We will be working with GPG on the demo but I was thinking of proposing that the demo for Demigod be multiplayer ONLY. Moreover, I would like the demo players to be able to play online with legitimate players. Here's where we need your help: What do you think would be a good way to limit this demo then in order to get people to still buy the game?

Fourth, we plan to start formal Demigod tournmants with cash and prizes for the winners.

Fifth, Stardock is working on an update to Impulse Reactor that will allow people to have more control over the types of people people are matched up with. Think of it being like eHarmony but for gaming. You'll be able to describe the type of gamer you are and the match making system will pick out people for you. This feature is actually being developed for Elemental but because Demigod uses Impulse Reactor, it'll get that for free.

Sixth, Stardock moderators will soon be introduced into the online community. This will probably happen in mid-May. The idea is, if we have forum moderators, why not multiplayer ones? Their job will be to provide enjoyable multiplayer experiences (i.e. good sports, skilled player, etc.) PLUS they will be able to add or subtract in-game karma from players. People who are just nasty or horrible to other players will lose karma points. People who are good sports and good citizens will get points. Those with higher karma will tend to get matched up. Yes, we know this is controversal. Players will see the karma as part of their account and there will be a way for users who feel they were unfairly negated to appeal.

Seventh, all people who have bought Demigod at retail or direct up May 10th (and didn't return the game obviously) will be getting a coupon that will let them purchase a second copy of Demigod for 50% off for a limited time as a way for us to show appreciation for this community that has put their faith and trust in us.

Thanks everyone!

+912 Karma | 288 Replies

Quoting Wagnard,

reply 25

Does opening port 6112 to 6200 invovle using the file : impulsereactoroptions.exe in demigod directory?

I hope not. It should just send a request on the port, and if it gets a reply it's got a direct connection (or a forwarded port). So it should just require setting up the router ports, and maybe flicking an option in the UI (but probably not).

I really think my conneciton issues are related to it trying to do #2 and failing, when I've already forwarded the ports and thus #1 would work. Now that it'll try to do #1 instead, happy days are here.

For the demo, I hope it's got some matchmaking logic. It would be bad to take a newbie trying the demo and put them into a game against 5 super experienced players. That would NOT be fun, at all.

whoops...double post. sorry.

Quoting Phalnax811,

reply 18

SWEET!!! Yeah that 50% won't really help me lol....umm...can it translate into 50% off the next Sins expansion? of even a free Sins Expansion "credit"?

Thanks again

-Phal

+1!

The horrible release and general broken state of demigod that fans suffered through is worth something more than a coupon that I can never really use. You screwed early adopters when you dropped the price after they paid for beta and then you screwed them with a horrible release. Give them something they can use, like a $10 Stardock gift certificate or a free game.

Microsoft did better when they had Xbox live become unstable during the holidays (they gave everyone a free game.)

50% off a game we already own isn't very impressive.

I agree with some of the others as well. I would not make the demo multiplayer. I would leave it single player with:

- One map...probably a 3 vs. 3 one.

- One assassin choice (Maybe Rook)

- One general choice (perhaps Queen of Thorns)

- No persistent stat tracking (but of course show end of round stuff)

- Enable all the AI choices.

- No tournament obviously...so just the skirmish option.

This will be more then enough to get people to want to buy it.

2. Hear me out on this - I think you're going about the whole "demo" thing all wrong. Pirates download the full Demigod, but they don't get the latest version so it has bugs, and they can't play "legit" online. You currently don't do anything to stop this, but rather try to add value to legit customers.

So here's what I'm thinking. You make the full version of Demigod a free download over Impulse. You can't log in to play online without a key, of course, which you have to pay for. It's the full latest game, all bug-fixed and patched, you can skirmish all you like, etc. It's what people are pirating, only with the bugfixes in (for crash to desktops, sound issues, and so on). Make sure that the game, when you're not logged in with a valid key to play online, has a nice big jolly button on the main menu that says "purchase Demigod for free updates, new demigods, online play, tournaments, and more!"

Basically, people who haven't paid or won't pay for Demigod have two choices:

1. They can warez the game. It will be unpatched and have some critical bugs not even related to multiplayer, so they'll maybe have an unfavorable impression and be less likely to buy.

2. They can download the demo. If it's a non-multplayer demo, it's a limited version of the game. And as you bugfix and re-balance the main game in the future, the demo gets out of date, or you have to apply those improvements to that version as well, which is more work. If it's an online play demo, someone "sampling" the game plays against experienced players and has a bad time of it, or experienced players complain about games being "tainted" with "demo noobs."

I say, give people the best of both worlds. Let them get the "full", latest game in a totally legal fashion even more easily than they would if they warez it. Make the value that you add for paying customers even more obvious, really hit the Free players over the head with it, and put a link right in the game for people to go right to Impulse and buy. Make sure people know, right from within the game, exactly what they're missing if they are Free players - free extra demigod or map downloads, online play, ranking, tournaments, building Favor, etc.

Basically, make the warez version irrelevant while simultaneously giving people a better, fuller demo experience, and making it easier for people to purchase the game if they like it (no need to re-download a non-demo or non-warez version, no need to patch up, just buy a key and log in).

I second the motion by JasonCross. I think this is an excellent idea and does precisely what Stardock preaches: treat the customer right and make things easier for the legit users.

I'm still waiting for my $5 credit since I paid $45 for demigod last year....

You could say that $5 was for beta access but it was never mentioned anywhere.

I finally logged in on the forums, just to say thanks Frogboy. I've been keeping up with the posts since 'launch' day. (The game got streetdate broken on my birthday. What a present! ) A bunch of my friends are looking for retail copies as of this week when I showed them the game, so I'm sure I can make use of the coupon. I'm not too keen on the moderators idea. It would take some serious effort. I just hope it's done well. As for the demo, I agree that you're taking the wrong stance with this. The demo should probably be SP-only AND with limitations.

How about giving us 50% off on a SD game instead? I don't need another copy of Demigod, but give me 50% off on Elemental and I'll go preorder right away.

As for the demo, I think you should offer people the full thing with a trial key good for a week or so. All you have to sell the game on are you and your existing customers. The pirates offer everything else and they don't charge for it, so you need the demo to show people how nice you (and we) are.

If I didn't have experience with the kind of service & community you guys offer, I wouldn't have bought Demigod. I know piracy sucks for you, but it's free for me, so if you had nothing more to offer you wouldn't have gotten my money. I'm nice, but not that nice.

How about giving us 50% off on a SD game instead? I don't need another copy of Demigod, but give me 50% off on Elemental and I'll go preorder right away.

There is a reason why they want to offer this. To energize the multiplayer community. If we want to give Demigod a jump after a sub-par launch, we need to give our friends a discounted copy. I for one am gonna try to convice my brother to buy my discounted copy. World of Warcraft has a firm grip on him. He thought Demigod looked neat but didn't feel like spending the money with all the Warcrack he was doing. Perhaps a big discount will perswad him

Simsun and others:

I should also say, that the coupons to Demigod users are really just the start of Stardock goodies. Without giving away too much, we are talking to publishers about doing specials for Demigod players on Impulse. I.e. early adopters of Demigod will get various coupons off of anything on Impulse as well but I can't be specific yet because we only started talking to publishers on Friday (We already have 1 BIG publisher lined up).

My opinion is that Stardock's reputation in the industry absolutely must be something people can trust in. Therefore, we MUST make up the early launch issues with Demigod up to our customers.

On a different note, for the first time since launch, I the team here at Stardock is feeling mighty good.

I don't know enough on IT to really explain what has been done behind the scenes. Does anyone here work in IT and want to take a stab at explaining what is involved in creating an international proxy server system -- from scratch -- that works without having to change 1 line of code in the game client in a period of 14 days?

Frogboy (or frogman in our eyes), and the rest of the forum. Remember one thing. A multiplayer demo is very rare, actually I can't remember ever seeing one before, and there is a reason for that. Limiting the number of demigods or maps will probably, in my opinion, make other players get almost the same restraints as the demo-players because a lot of the online players will only be able to join certain games, and we will always meet the same demigods. Plus limoting factions and maps is really the standard for offline demos. So I think it needs some really out-of-the-box thinking. And while it's 5am here and I just came home from work, I have a couple of suggestions that can hopefully be improved in some way by you guys.

For example limiting skill trees in a way will, while allowing the demo-players to max out their demigods, not allow them to customize their demigods, and therefore wanting that option enough to buy the game. In theis way other players will not be limited as i tried to explain above, and if we dont know they play the demo we wont know their build either. So in a way we don't excperience much difference with the demo players among us, and they dont get to "play" the whole game.

Okay, that was just one suggestion, but I think it was quite good, and I'm tired.

I totally digg this game. So does my CS-playing non-RTS-loving friend and my wow playing friend and my non gamer friend as well by the way.

Keep up the good work Stardock And GPG!

Awesome. Thanks!

For the demo, how about locking them down to 1 or 2 characters only. Perhaps block access to purchasing upgrades using favor points. 1 map only. And of course, a splash screen when they quit the game telling them all of the features they are missing.

I really dig the 50% offer... I already had most of my friends pick it up prior to that offer, but maybe I can find a straggler.

Quoting Christian Ons,

reply 13

Frogboy (or frogman in our eyes), and the rest of the forum. Remember one thing. A multiplayer demo is very rareG!

I've seen plenty of multiplayer demo's, sometimes you get multiplayer only demo's as well where you can't play the single player part.

Steam also does demo stuff like the free left4dead weekend where anyone can download the demo and play with everyone - so this is another option.

I'm not a big IT person either [yet]. But I've spent my whole life around them. I think you just flapped your arms and flew to the moon. (Assuming it works.)

@Christian Ons: Multiplayer Demos are very common in the FPS genre. Left 4 Dead, Quake III, Wolfenstein etc. etc.

However, demo players were restricted to playing with demo players. Infact, the demo version of Left 4 Dead was pulled entirely when the retail game was released.

There are some good ideas here already about demo restrictions, so I'll just give my thoughts on the demo users mingling with retail users.

It ensures they will always be able to hop straight into the action, when demo users run dry, there will always be lots of retail users. BUT BUT BUT, we're already talking about how the beta version caused rifts in the userbase, now imagine what a demo version will do. I think demo users may get shunned from retail games because of the limitations placed on them.

I'm going to bring in another online game that I think handled this situation quite well, Poxnora. (Turn based strategy with card collecting aspects)

They had 3 "arenas"/game modes:

1. Training Grounds, limitations in place.
2. Drums of War, ranked matches.
3. Custom Games, self explanitory.

Free users had limitations placed on them that didn't allow them to really compete in paying users ranked matches, they were allowed to play if they wanted though, it was just unlikely theyd win. It was 1v1 though, so they wouldn't be letting a team down. HOWEVER, the training grounds arena forced everyone playing there to play by the same limitations the free users did. This is where free users would generally play, but paying users could play matches there aswell, they would just have to play by the same limitations (so it wasn't an utter steamroll).

I will grant that paying users didn't rush to the training grounds in droves, but the ones who did go were generally there to help the youngins grow. It worked surprisingly well for the community aspect.

Not sure how well this would work/translate for Demigod, but it worked very well in Poxnora.

Quoting Chaosnaska,

reply 13

WTF WTF WTF WTF this is the ONLY thing i don't like at ALL.
Smack talk is a BIG PART of DotA, continued on to be a BIG PART of this game, and practically all online MP games. I'd rather not have karma points deducted because I am doing what the nature of the beast calls for!
I don't want to group up with nasty people, that would make is miserable for ME!

Are you kidding? If you feel it is ok to "smack talk," then you should be with everyone else who is smack talking. This is exactly why I don't like to play DotA unless I'm playing with just friends. The nature of the beast is not smack talk everyone.

Before I was pretty neutral on the idea of in-game moderators and karma points, but you just convinced me that it is a great idea, Chaosnaska.

Suggestions for the demo:
1. Only make 2 demigods available, 1 assassin from each side. Generals are harder to learn how to play well and could confuse new people. Everyone likes the Rook, but he's hard to play as a newb, so I would not make him one of the options. It would frustrate people. I'm thinking more like, Regulus and Unclean Beast. These DGs are both fairly easy to learn I feel and any newb can get a lucky snipe in and lol. This would be for all online modes.

2. 2 generals available in single player mode only.

3. Allow favor points to be accumulated, but you can only buy the first 1-2 items on the list

A good demo has to give them just a taste of everything after all.

On in-game moderators: It sounds like a joke. Do I lose karma if my ally drops and I don't want to play with the enemy-feeding CPU? Matching players with good karma together? Shouldn't the game automatically obviate the need to do that? Isn't there already a profanity filter?

Very awesome news. Although I think it should be 50% off of any Stardock or GPG game so that those of us who haven't had the pleasure of trying some of these can have a good reason to buy them. Ah well, can't look a gift horse in the mouth. This will be a great oppurtunity to bring in new players.

Strange, since -- for me -- the last few updates have broken, and left broken, MP.

Here's where we need your help: What do you think would be a good way to limit this demo then in order to get people to still buy the game?

You can play one assasin (rook) and one general (QoT), and no one else. Make them 'have' to play skirmish, with only conquest as the game type they can get into, and only on cataract. Restrict them to a small set of favor items, with the rest 'seen', but unpurchaseable, and don't allow them to generate favor, only have a 'set' ammount.

Does opening port 6112 to 6200 invovle using the file : impulsereactoroptions.exe in demigod directory?

No, it involves using your router.

Smack talk is a BIG PART of DotA, continued on to be a BIG PART of this game, and practically all online MP games.

The nice thing about this system, is you get to play with players who think that... and the rest of us don't have to deal with you!

I don't do IT, but the very way you phrased it makes it clear what a nightmare that must have been!

I'm not a big IT person either [yet]. But I've spent my whole life around them. I think you just flapped your arms and flew to the moon. (Assuming it works.)

Kit, a more sucinct answer could not be asked!

Wonderful news, and I eagerly await the future. As far as the moderators go, on one hand, I am not too sure on giving them the ability to dish out karma. On the other, they would simply be helpful players without it. I suppose more information on the whole "multiplayer karma system" would have to be gone through, etc. Hmm, yeah, so it is a really neat idea, so I await more info on this!

Stop doing betas on the weekend please

Awesome! Since I already bought 2 copies, one for a friend to use, and one for myself, I can get 2 more for friends. =D

As for a Demo, allow 2 playable characters. 1 Assassin, 1 General. I'd say give them.... Either Rook or Torch, and QoT or Oak.

No favor items. And, I dunno.... maybe even limit their use of the Artifact store. (Which will force them to spend more on the Cidadel upgrades)

EDIT: Also, try unlocking full access to the game for all demo users for 2-4 hours on a weekend day, like around 2-4pm Saturday. The devs of Hyperbol have done that with their game. It gets people playing, but they need more publicity. =/ (and it's not very newbie friendly)

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Demigod: Breakthru

Yes!