Life in the Demigod lane

By Frogboy on May 2, 2009 12:43:45 PM from

Last night we got the update out. The change log can be found on Impulse (right click and view the change log). Lots of improvements.

We ultimately marked it as a beta because we ran out of time and couldn't integrate the updated connection code which meant that the existing connection DLL had to be included which has a launch bug that causes an occasional crash when combined with this new build.

Anywyay, we had been hoping to surprise people by having the update include the Proxy server update. But it too wasn't quite ready. We had pushed until Friday to try to surprise everyone but we didn't want to go a second weekend without showing some substantial improvements for those people who have been having difficiulties.

We're going to have an update probably on Monday to move the beta from release.

The problem with betas, as some of you no doubt have noticed, is that you split the multiplayer community and that can make the skirmish and pantheon games a lot less fun because you end up with a lot fewer 3 on 3 human games. So we have to do these sparingly.

Now, that said, I want to address a nmber of points in one place that keep coming up online:

Comment 1: "Stardock is overstating Demigod difficulties, to get coverage, the game works fine for me"

Comment 2: "The multiplayer match making is totally buggy, how could they release it like this???"

So at the opposite end of the spectrum, we have the people who are having trouble getting into games with the built in match making. I share your frustration. But Stardock was in no rush to release Demigod. Demigod was done as far as we were concerned.

Now, as the publisher, it's our responsibility to make sure problems in anything we release are addressed. But we haven't been fixing "bugs". We have been getting a crash course in P2P scaleability (or lack there of).

Should Demigod have had a big huge open MP beta? Yea, in hindsight, yes. If we had a time machine, we would do that. But we've released games that have MP before (Sins of a Solar Empire, The Political Machine, The Corporate Machine, and OS/2 games before that). The difference here is the difference between MP-centric and a game that's mostly played SP that has MP.

And how does that difference translate? Well, in Sins, you might (and Sins players can attest to this) a game that tops out with 200 people playing online at once versus a game that has 1000 people in games online and another 8000 people who are online in the process of looking for games. And as many people have said, it works decently overall.

There are programs like Game Ranger that largely take care of the match making for people who want to use that while we migrate towards a system where we host the games for players but it's not something that's easily done overnight.

PC game expectations have come a long way over the past several years. Leaders in our industry like Blizzard have raised the bar with things like Battle.net and our friends at Relic have created RelicOnline which works very well. And of course there is GameSpy Arcade which has evolved over a period of years.

We appreciate the patience of those who are having difficulties. I can assure you that Gas Powered Games and Stardock are working inhuman hours to solve their problems as quickly as possible (70 to 90 hours last week for instance per person involved). But these hours aren't about "finishing" a game. The game shipped finished. It's the scale of things that we were (clearly) unprepared for. We can't change the past, we can only take things from where they are now.

A lot of progress has been made internally. In less than 2 weeks, we've taken a game that is a peer-to-peer game and developed an infrastructure from scratch to make it so that the publisher's servers will be handling potentially 100% of the network traffic for all games played throughout the world. This was not contemplated prior to release but we are commited to making sure that MP is bullet proof even if it takes longer than we all wish.

We're working on it even now.

+912 Karma | 77 Replies

Whew.. I thought I was doomed to not work. Knowing the proxy servers aren't out makes me feel a whole lot better haha (never thought I'd say that).

On another note though, I actually like being set up with bots when connections don't work, so that I can work up my favor points and start buying those items for the multiplayer side lol. A polish thought for later on down the line I had was that it might be nice to have a 'couldn't make a connection.. wanna play against bots?' pop-up after failing to connect, for the guys that might not want to play against ai, or have already maxed favor items, or for whatever reason.

Just an idea! I'm sure once the connection stuff is worked out this wont be that big of an issue anyways.

-Orothin

Thanks for the updates once again

I can't wait for this connection stuff to be laid to rest so that the actual gameplay can come into focus for improvement. In particular I think the UI could use a lot of tweaking, and the various little bugs that many have complained about (particularly the "I can't cast that unless I try walking first" bug).

Does that mean the proxy servers might be ready for the monday update?

Good explanation one again! Keep up the good work there at Stardock and of course GPG!

Personally, I just enjoyed another 2v2 custom game without problems and it was a blast! It does sound like things are moving in the good direction, so for those with problems: Hang in there! Its worth the wait.

This is what is expected of video game companies these days. The server problem is not so much of an obvious thing, but everything else. Many important things, mainly customization of many different things online to actually be on par with games out today. Like filters, sorting, friends options, chatting, voice comms, etc. The bar is always raised, you need to raise it more if you want to be noticed and more successful than the other games out.

Frogboy, Stardock, GPG et. al,

I appreciate the intense service and dedication you are showing in solving the connectivity problem. However, as the connectivity finish line is coming into view, and we are playing more and more, my gaming group and I are beginning to need some sort of acknowledgement that other problems will be dealt with in the same fashion.

There are several other bugs, and these are bugs not miscalculations, which are inhibiting our enjoyment of the game FAR more than the connectivity problems.

I'm speaking of things like the attack-move bug. Problems with Unit pathing. Demigods/minions not always responding or responding strangely to commands. These issues seem to have been floating around the discussions since early/mid beta.

I'm also referring to missing features which have been floating around since at least September. Namely more Self/Minion/Ally interaction via the HUD. And (my personal preference) the addition of a "stop" command.

As we play more and get better at the game it gets more and more frustrating to run into these kinds of problems. We are dying to see these issues resolved with the same tenacity as the connection problems, or at least acknowledged some time soon.

I would love to go easy on you for these issues as I have with the connection stuff. But unlike the connectivity issue which was a simple miscalcluation, the fact that Attack-move doesn't work is a BUG, the result of a faulty QA process. And these things are extremely difficult to tolerate with patience. (especially as you stand and vehemently defend your QA)

We would love to see these journals begin to acknowledge and address some of other severe issues with the game beyond connectivity because your response to the two comments above fail to stand their ground. Comment #1: the loud, forceful discussion of connectivity IS taking attention from other significant and fundamental problems with the software. Comment #2: while the connectivity problems may not have been a QA problem, there most definitely are several other debilitating issues which reflect severe, inexplicable, and unacceptable QA fail.

Harsh words I know, but the more we hear nothing but optimism about connectivity and new content, the more difficult it is to accept these other issues unresolved, even unacknowledged.

Thanks for taking the time to read.

(some feedback on where I and several of my previously very excited, very enthusiastic friends stand)

I'm having trouble seeing this change log... I have to right click Demigod in Impulse?

"our friends at Relic have created RelicOnline which works very well"

except reliconline never worked that well which is why they gave up on it and decided to go with a multiplayer system that functions correctly called GFWL.

Quoting mehoo462,

reply 7

I would love to go easy on you for these issues as I have with the connection stuff. But unlike the connection issues which was a simple miscalcluation, the fact that Attack-move doesn't work is a BUG, the result of a faulty QA process. And these things are extremely difficult to tolerate with patience. (especially as you stand and vehemently defend your QA)

GPG is in charge of that stuff. A GPG dev said in another thread just yesterday that they tracked down the cause of the bugs that cause abilities not to go off and for you to stop chasing. Hopefully we see those soon.

quoting post

In less than 2 weeks, we've taken a game that is a peer-to-peer game and developed an infrastructure from scratch to make it so that the publisher's servers will be handling potentially 100% of the network traffic for all games played throughout the world.

I take this to mean that you're abadoning the peer to peer hosting (like in SupCom) and going towards having servers that people make one connection to (like fps games, counterstrike, team fortress, etc)?

Wont that mean you'll have to have an extraordinary amount of servers and it will cost a great deal, maybe more than the profit you stand to make off the game?

An idea just popped into my head (this may have been discussed before, or it may be the proxy update, I'm not sure): why not have a hybrid system where a game is hosted, everyone connects to it on a stardock server. Now the game attempts to make connections between players, and people who have low latency and stable connections between each other, connect to each other, thus the server has to send out less infomation overall (saving money, less bandwidth used). For other players/connections, a server handles them, thus making sure they have connectivity.

Quoting Shock0311,

reply 9

"our friends at Relic have created RelicOnline which works very well"

except reliconline never worked that well which is why they gave up on it and decided to go with a multiplayer system that functions correctly called GFWL.

On the contrary I find RelicOnline works much better than GFWL. Consider the following points

1) Random match making, 1v1, 2v2,
2) Lobbies

The only thing that's still not working too well is the drophacking and awarding of wins and losses. To me, that's not as important as being able to play in a game... with real people..

Nice post! Can't wait til the beta is final...so I can get it....(not too keen on betas)

Thanks!

-Phal

Quoting Scyle,

reply 11

quoting post

In less than 2 weeks, we've taken a game that is a peer-to-peer game and developed an infrastructure from scratch to make it so that the publisher's servers will be handling potentially 100% of the network traffic for all games played throughout the world.

I take this to mean that you're abadoning the peer to peer hosting (like in SupCom) and going towards having servers that people make one connection to (like fps games, counterstrike, team fortress, etc)?

Wont that mean you'll have to have an extraordinary amount of servers and it will cost a great deal, maybe more than the profit you stand to make off the game?

An idea just popped into my head (this may have been discussed before, or it may be the proxy update, I'm not sure): why not have a hybrid system where a game is hosted, everyone connects to it on a stardock server. Now the game attempts to make connections between players, and people who have low latency and stable connections between each other, connect to each other, thus the server has to send out less infomation overall (saving money, less bandwidth used). For other players/connections, a server handles them, thus making sure they have connectivity.

They are merely adding a safety net to help users who are unable to connect through p2p for whatever reason. So the game still will use p2p for the most part but for those who are unable to connect via p2p there is the saftey net of the proxy servers to help connect them to the other peers. So basically your idea is what they are doing just in reverse:

1. User tries to connect via p2p to other users.

2. If that fails, route connection through proxy servers.

quoting post

First, yes, while the game works fine for most people. There are a significant number of people who are having problems connecting through the built in multiplayer match making. While I may seem to focus a lot on those issues, in the long run, this is a game that will live and die on its ability to sustain a MP community and it is important that people know that we are taking their issues seriously.

But these hours aren't about "finishing" a game. The game shipped finished. It's the scale of things that we were (clearly) unprepared for. We can't change the past, we can only take things from where they are now.

I do not understand how it can be stated that "the game works fine for most people" when Favor remains horrendously broken? Surely Favor remaining horrendously broken indicates that contrary to the quoted statement, the game does not work fine for most people at all.

If "the game shipped finished", then shouldn't a fundamental feature of the game, Favor points/items, have been working prior to it being shipped? I know in another dev journal it was stated that tracking got messed up when you migrated servers or whatnot, but in my lay opinion there seems to be more bugs to it than just those tracking problems since most of the time it lists me as having 0 Favor points and therefore rendering me unable to buy any Favor items. Yet sometimes it may occassionally list me as having ~1300 Favor points that don't get spent when I purchase Favor items (which makes the game functional on the occasions when it happens, although still broken).

But the point is, most of the time Favor is still bugged at 0 and Favor items are unpurchasable, and that needs to be fixed. Only then would the game be "working fine for most people".

Why did you lock the other thread? https://forums.demigodthegame.com/350207/

Moreover, my post listing the non-connection related issues was deleted? What the hell?

Not only that, but you didn't address a single one of my concerns in this post. The game did not ship finished, there are many issues which do not concern the connection issues.

I'm very unhappy now. My post was aimed at getting people to realize what the OP of that thread was talking about, and though I may have come off as annoyed (for those who didn't see my post: no, I did not swear or anything even remotely close to that), My previous state of mind was "well yeah it's kinda buggy, but I have faith they'll sort it...", and asking for a refund was not something I honestly considered.

That changed. What's up with deleting my post? My opinion of you is much, much worse now, and if previously I was much more patient with all of the game bugs and connection issues and wouldn't have asked for a refund, there's a very good chance I will now.

Hmm, that post is indeed gone.. that is weird.. Where did it go?

I wanted to quote it before but didnt.. I wish I did now..

I really appreciate all these (very honest) updates. Thank you so much for being honest with your customers and not dancing around the issue like so many others in your position would. I know I speak for many people when I say I can't stand it when a company can't admit they made a mistake and give you a PR answer. So kudos to you and your team - you respect us and we'll respect you.

Thanks for the great game by the way, I have experienced a few issues so far but I still enjoy the game very much and can still play custom games for the time being

Ohh and also, does anyone know how arranged teams/clan support will be handled or if/when or anything? I know that is probably a ways down the pipeline but I'm just excited for it haha

I saw it too comanoodle. What's up Stardock? starting to shut people's mouths now?

Despite Brad's seemingly transparent policy about ingame issues, it's starting to feel like you only want people to be aware of certain problems and not others.

This behavior is infuriating. If you think you can censor your community without good reason you're dead wrong. I'm starting to lose any respect I held for Stardock.

I was more optimistic around launch, when the game was completely broken, and everyone kept repeating "give it a couple of weeks" like good little trained pets. Well guess what, that time has passed, and the game, although not nearly as broken as the first few days, is still in beta shape (they're even releasing beta fixes... this isn't an mmo, talented developers know how to patch their games). If you're gonna be honest with your community don't half-ass it.

got a quick question for you frogboy, was the skill bug intended to be in the game , no way this was overlooked in the beta , happens approx 1-2 times in every 2 games , and can be the difference between a loss/win in a game.

and ofc im talking about the hero not using his skill when applies and instead resets the DGs actions , so he stands still or starts to attack other mobs

Yeah, matchmaking is borked, but I'm sure you've noticed the daily feedback they have giving us about how they are working on and releasing fixes. It would be fraud if they released the game as it was and never planed on fixing it. It was "done" to them, they just underestimated the possible multiplayer problems that were possible. People make mistakes. Even the people that make our computer games. If that's not enough for you, just pretend you pre-ordered Demigod and you are actually playing the beta right now

This behavior is infuriating. If you think you can censor your community without good reason you're dead wrong. I'm starting to lose any respect I held for Stardock.

I have an idea why it got locked,

Stardock, why would you release a game that doesn't work? If you did any QA on the game, there's just no way you could miss the countless bugs in-game

He starts of insulting stardock and then procceds to to list bugs that they and everyone else is well aware of. They are fixing it. That's why he posted a link to the blogs. It's a work in progress. Big update coming Monday, chill out guys.

Frogboy,

Thanks for this post. You addressed a lot of concerns all in one place. I am looking forward to the build on Monday and I appreciate all the work you and other devs are putting into ironing out the remaining issues. I completely understand the pain of long hours at work when needed. I hope you and the team get a nice break from this very soon!

Quoting Connatic,

reply 21

Trying to portray the game to have been released in a finished state is an outright lie. This game is first and foremost a multiplayer game, it would fail to return the investment completely if shipped only with its single player component. So saying the game was "done" is so misleading and deluded it feels like outright fraud.

Yeah, matchmaking is borked, but I'm sure you've noticed the daily feedback they have giving us about how they are working on and releasing fixes. It would be fraud if they released the game as it was and never planed on fixing it. It was "done" to them, they just underestimated the possible multiplayer problems that were possible. People make mistakes. Even the people that make our computer games. If that's not enough for you, just pretend you pre-ordered Demigod and you are actually playing the beta right now

This behavior is infuriating. If you think you can censor your community without good reason you're dead wrong. I'm starting to lose any respect I held for Stardock.

I have an idea why it got locked,

Stardock, why would you release a game that doesn't work? If you did any QA on the game, there's just no way you could miss the countless bugs in-game
He starts of insulting stardock and then procceds to to list bugs that they and everyone else is well aware of. They are fixing it. That's why he posted a link to the blogs. It's a work in progress. Big update coming Monday, chill out guys.

So I should pretend I payed for a beta in order to feel good about buying a game that weeks after launch still has serious, game breaking issues in its multiplayer component (and as I mentioned, they would probably see a fraction of the sales they did if the game shipped with its single player only)? I'd rather face the fact that I've purchased a malfunctioning product than delude myself.

If we as consumers continue to accept these issues than companies will continue to sell incomplete projects. What got me all riled up is when a company's CEO starts selectively acknowledging issues and dismissing others. If they deemed a certain part of his post as inflamatory, delete that part. You don't delete a post containing a legitimate list of issues with your project simply because they've been mentioned previously, and then link to a post that refers to some of the issues while writing off others. This isn't a Beta. We aren't here by anyone's grace or good will. If they fail to address these issues, they can kiss their fanbase goodbye.

Looking forward to it Frogman!

The game still has many bugs, that are not related to the connection issues. So i don't know what you mean by "game shipped finished".

For example, the click ability bug is so common and frustrating, that it's an enigma how it eluded beta.

The Forums Are Now Closed!

The content will remain as a historical reference, thank you.

Life in the Demigod lane