Forces of Light, take a look at their top players.

Quoting Number 9,

Quoting nivina,
reply 16
UB = spit and run. Honestly the most worthless demigod in the game. morso then the torch bearer. and that's saying a lot. no wait, 2 way tie between UB and Rook. Both are unbelivabley terrible.

It confuses me to no end when players die to assassins. I don't mean in gang up scenarios, i mean in general play. Assassins cannot compete with generals 1v1. The only way for assassins to kill generals is to gang up on them and hope the general is dumb enough to walk into it.

Your analysis is thorough and enlightening. The scientific community owes you a great debt of gratitude.

On another note, it's a good thing this game is largely regarded as team oriented and most kills will be the result of strategy and careful planning. But boy are you right! LAWL all over those assassin's faces, man. Only for the nubs, amirite?!

Let's get together sometime. I'll bring some people, you bring some people. It'll be great fun.

No, but he's right. Most intelligently played generals are able to repel assasins single handedly, but it's a rare situation when the same can be said for an assasin vs. a general. Perhaps the only exception to this is a Rook with a full set of Towers of Light set up, but of course that takes quite a bit of time to prepare.

And not only that, but in a 2 v 2 situation, 2 generals or 1 general + 1 assasin is typically going to have the upper hand on 2 assasins. Assasins have little durability or utility to rely on for survivability, aside from some stuns or snares which generals also posses on top of shields, temporary invulnerabilities, heals, and the like.

Also, of course it's a team game, but even in a team game, there will be instances where a player is facing another one on one, even if it is a brief amount of time. And what happens during that brief 1 on 1 showdown can have an effect on the game later on when the other teammates catch up.

Don't get me wrong -- assasins are far from useless, but only if they're being backed up by a general. The same is not true for generals: an all-general team will do just fine, even if they are a little lacking in burst.

Quoting Protocept00,

reply 24

ONLY with the catlady do I survive, and that's only because I might be able to spam a heal as I run away the second I see him. But that's all I can do; run away. Killing him with her is not an option. . .

Also, lol @ catlady...

cat lady!

They should definitely make her a demigod.

BWAAAHAAAHAAA

Rook is great for forcing ground on a UB. His structural transfer skill even at level 2 can pretty much negate spit if you have the mana. Pop towers and even if you cant kill the UB, you can push him back by moving your towers forward. Oaks pretty good vs UB 1v1 if he has his minions. If not just run away. I think spit DOES need to be tweaked to have a much longer recharge time. You can kill a demigod early on with just 2 spits. (Regulus atleast) Thats kinda silly.

I play Rook and Oak and very rarely do I get killed, because I play like a coward and always make sure Ive got a wide avenue of retreat. Take it slow and crawl your way across the map and all those UB spits will just amount to annoying.

Quoting Protocept00,

reply 22

I swear most Darkness forces use him. It's annoying. And I am tired of seeing the same combo over and over again. Spit, run, spit, chase + other UB moves sometimes.

Ok, I may not be able to tell you how to beat the Unclean Beast players (and since he's my preferred Demingod...no offense, but it's not in my vested interest to tell you ALL of my tricks!!) but I'll help you with why they're beating you.

A) UB is faster than other DGs, yes...but only very marginally, and not enough that he'll catch you if you keep a modicum of distance from him early on. The thing is, many UB players supplement his speed by getting the 10% speed boost boots right off the bat. If he does, and you don't...then he has the speed advantage. Personally, I get them booties about 8 of every 10 games I play. Speed is my bread and butter on that class.

Spit alone is not going to kill you, even at the very beginning of the game. It doesn't do really nasty damage until later when, I fully admit, it seems to be too much of a good thing for a melee Demigod to have, in my opinion. But just to set the record straight; I have an alternate build for the Unclean Beast that DOESN'T use Spit beyond level 1, and this build is *harder* to deal with than the Spitting UB.

Ok, so I've given you two pieces of info; yes he's faster than you off the bat, but not by much...and yes, Spit is annoying but it won't kill you when the game first starts. Now think of the following....

I don't know about you, but I play the same no matter what Demigod I am using; I try to get levels early on without having to engage the enemy. Creeps, capturing flags, and DENYING those flags from my enemy; fighting them just enough to make them give up on a flag my side holds. I don't feel the point of the game, right from the onset, is to kill everything that moves. The point is to strengthen my Demigod by any means necessary, to build up my Citadel, and THEN go after enemy Demigods. So what does that mean?

Harass, harass, harass. Everyone says the UB is the "perfect harassing Demigod", but the same can be said of Regulus with his Mine/Snipe spam. or the Rook with his Tower creeping, or Oak with his "Shield/Hit/Hit/Run" tactics, or Sedna with her damn "Peck-peck-peck-HEAL-run" tactic. The thing about UB is; no matter what the player does, UB's got two glaring weaknesses early on which you can exploit. They are (you watching here?): ONE, low hitpoints. UB cannot take damage for beans early on. Seriously. Two to three solid hits and I'm down to half hitpoints. TWO, limited mana pool and a REALLY mana hungry early ability. Sure, I can Spit on you. Once. Twice. Then I'm just about done. I won't be spitting again for a nice while. I've also (probably) gimped my income early on as I have spent all my gold on Speed boots and don't even have enough at first for a teleport scroll or any kind of potion.

So what to do? Well, for starters...carry a health pot or three. If you see a UB coming, go where he is not...kill some creeps, capture a flag, go for his partner, attack one of his towers. Early on, focus on getting some levels and NOT on killing him. If you really want him dead, call one of your allies for help. Bait him, make him chase you, get your partner to jump him and keep running away. The UB may feel you've run off and stay to fight your partner; turn back, and surprise the UB. If you get spit on, pop a potion and run away, then go back. You can heal yourself, he most likely cannot.

Also, keep in mind that most players tend to think the UB is really tougher than he is at first. Later in the game, he is a truly scary animal (give me a Heart of Life and NOTHING ELSE and my UB will make most players cry for their mommies) but early on, he just doesn't have the sort of advantage you think he does. Being Spit on isn;t the end of a fight at levels 1 or 2 or 3. Use that to your advantage, and use the tools the game gives you to suck up his mana and then it's melee only. And early on, he just...doesn't...hit...that...hard.

I guess I am saying; use your head, don't psych yourself out, and do to him what he is (no doubt) trying to do to you; make HIM run, make HIM avoid YOU, and don't bother trying to kill him right off the bat. Make him give up on what he needs; flags, map placement, and easy access to Creeps.

Quoting Fractallicon,

reply 5

Quoting Protocept00, reply 22

I swear most Darkness forces use him. It's annoying. And I am tired of seeing the same combo over and over again. Spit, run, spit, chase + other UB moves sometimes.

Ok, I may not be able to tell you how to beat the Unclean Beast players (and since he's my preferred Demingod...no offense, but it's not in my vested interest to tell you ALL of my tricks!!) but I'll help you with why they're beating you.

A) UB is faster than other DGs, yes...but only very marginally, and not enough that he'll catch you if you keep a modicum of distance from him early on. The thing is, many UB players supplement his speed by getting the 10% speed boost boots right off the bat. If he does, and you don't...then he has the speed advantage. Personally, I get them booties about 8 of every 10 games I play. Speed is my bread and butter on that class.

Spit alone is not going to kill you, even at the very beginning of the game. It doesn't do really nasty damage until later when, I fully admit, it seems to be too much of a good thing for a melee Demigod to have, in my opinion. But just to set the record straight; I have an alternate build for the Unclean Beast that DOESN'T use Spit beyond level 1, and this build is *harder* to deal with than the Spitting UB.

Ok, so I've given you two pieces of info; yes he's faster than you off the bat, but not by much...and yes, Spit is annoying but it won't kill you when the game first starts. Now think of the following....

I don't know about you, but I play the same no matter what Demigod I am using; I try to get levels early on without having to engage the enemy. Creeps, capturing flags, and DENYING those flags from my enemy; fighting them just enough to make them give up on a flag my side holds. I don't feel the point of the game, right from the onset, is to kill everything that moves. The point is to strengthen my Demigod by any means necessary, to build up my Citadel, and THEN go after enemy Demigods. So what does that mean?

Harass, harass, harass. Everyone says the UB is the "perfect harassing Demigod", but the same can be said of Regulus with his Mine/Snipe spam. or the Rook with his Tower creeping, or Oak with his "Shield/Hit/Hit/Run" tactics, or Sedna with her damn "Peck-peck-peck-HEAL-run" tactic. The thing about UB is; no matter what the player does, UB's got two glaring weaknesses early on which you can exploit. They are (you watching here?): ONE, low hitpoints. UB cannot take damage for beans early on. Seriously. Two to three solid hits and I'm down to half hitpoints. TWO, limited mana pool and a REALLY mana hungry early ability. Sure, I can Spit on you. Once. Twice. Then I'm just about done. I won't be spitting again for a nice while. I've also (probably) gimped my income early on as I have spent all my gold on Speed boots and don't even have enough at first for a teleport scroll or any kind of potion.

So what to do? Well, for starters...carry a health pot or three. If you see a UB coming, go where he is not...kill some creeps, capture a flag, go for his partner, attack one of his towers. Early on, focus on getting some levels and NOT on killing him. If you really want him dead, call one of your allies for help. Bait him, make him chase you, get your partner to jump him and keep running away. The UB may feel you've run off and stay to fight your partner; turn back, and surprise the UB. If you get spit on, pop a potion and run away, then go back. You can heal yourself, he most likely cannot.

Also, keep in mind that most players tend to think the UB is really tougher than he is at first. Later in the game, he is a truly scary animal (give me a Heart of Life and NOTHING ELSE and my UB will make most players cry for their mommies) but early on, he just doesn't have the sort of advantage you think he does. Being Spit on isn;t the end of a fight at levels 1 or 2 or 3. Use that to your advantage, and use the tools the game gives you to suck up his mana and then it's melee only. And early on, he just...doesn't...hit...that...hard.

I guess I am saying; use your head, don't psych yourself out, and do to him what he is (no doubt) trying to do to you; make HIM run, make HIM avoid YOU, and don't bother trying to kill him right off the bat. Make him give up on what he needs; flags, map placement, and easy access to Creeps.

Nice post.

After playing more games, I still run into the same problem. It doesn't matter what DG I use. I just fully think that Spits range is just too far. Spit wouldnt be so bad if it didn't sap your health as fast it does... it also has a relatively low cooldown... combine that would Ubs natural speed advantage... spit (from quite a long distance).. then run... wait for cooldown... catch up with DG.. and then spit again.... is just brutal. If I get caught by UB I usually have to run back to base. And by then, they've already estabilished the map, controlled the flags/creeps, and gianed exp whether they were able to kill me or not. Frustrating... and atm I still think it is just too overpowered. Just so you know, I wouldn't care if it happened in only a few games. But every game I play? Screw that. It's annoying and not very fun to fight the same DG in pantheon everytime and beaten by the same tactic everytime no matter what me or my teammate do.

Quoting Protocept00,

reply 6

Nice post.

After playing more games, I still run into the same problem. It doesn't matter what DG I use. I just fully think that Spits range is just too far. Spit wouldnt be so bad if it didn't sap your health as fast it does... it also has a relatively low cooldown... combine that would Ubs natural speed advantage... spit (from quite a long distance).. then run... wait for cooldown... catch up with DG.. and then spit again.... is just brutal. If I get caught by UB I usually have to run back to base. And by then, they've already estabilished the map, controlled the flags/creeps, and gianed exp whether they were able to kill me or not. Frustrating... and atm I still think it is just too overpowered. Just so you know, I wouldn't care if it happened in only a few games. But every game I play? Screw that. It's annoying and not very fun to fight the same DG in pantheon everytime and beaten by the same tactic everytime no matter what me or my teammate do.

I'm having the same issue at the moment. Between a group of friends there is one player I sometimes compete with that has just suddenly worked out how to use UB (I told him ). For sake of playing the game as it should, and Pantheon practice I am playing Light side against him. But my usual love, Regulus, is just completely useless vs. UB.

Now I'm not saying Regulus at level 10 can't beat an UB at level 10, the issue is at the start of the game he is going to do better than me, I feel there is nothing I can do. He spits and runs, so now unless I bought pots right off the bat I'm extremely vulnerable 7 seconds later when his spit is off CD again. So even if I have a pot I get 750 hp back. Now assuming I'm not even being hit by the other DG, the UB player comes back to me and spits and runs again. So now I'm low again, he just runs up and starts melee, my dps doesn't compete with his melee dps when I'm such low hp, I have to run/port back to base.

The UB player will always get the early game advantage against me and an UB that is higher level than you is impossible to deal with. Not to mention when he is playing with other people it only takes someone with half a brain who knows how to intercept someone running from UB for an easy kill. The problem with the spit and run, is UB is doing one of the highest damage attacks in game and taking close to 0 damage.

So I've been trying different light side DGs to try to find a nice counter, and in a 2v2 situation I just can't counter this early game spit and run tactic. There must be some beta players out there who have got this figured out?

I have another thread on this (sorry), but I had to comment on this "defence" of the UB:

Quoting Fractallicon,

reply 5

UB cannot take damage for beans early on. Seriously. Two to three solid hits and I'm down to half hitpoints

Bullshit. I can't even dent him with Regulus.

Quoting Fractallicon,

reply 5

Sure, I can Spit on you. Once. Twice

Well, that kills Regulus early on.

Quoting Fractallicon,

reply 5

If you see a UB coming, go where he is not...

Great. So, I can take on any other demigod, but if I see an UB, I should run? That doesn't really make the case for a balanced game.

Quoting Fractallicon,

reply 5

If you get spit on, pop a potion and run away, then go back.

Ok, so say I didn't run even though I saw the UB, but then get spit on. So NOW I should run still before I even get close to him because of the range of spit, and even waste money on an item.

Quoting Fractallicon,

reply 5

Later in the game, he is a truly scary animal (give me a Heart of Life and NOTHING ELSE and my UB will make most players cry for their mommies)

Great, so early in the game, you want me to run from the UB, so that later in the game he is even more invincible.

Sorry, but this is really, really broken, imo. It means that the UB can roam freely early in the game and get the experience and gold flags, and then later in the game, you STILL can't do anything because he's gained an even greater advantage.

And people complain about this Erebus guy? At least his overpowered bite is close range (though with charm combo it isn't), and the bat swarm means he's pussying out.

Edit: Never mind, didn't read other replies. Delete, please.

two spits early is only 800 damage and I guarantee that that isn't enough to kill a regulus. do the math and you'll see that the actual dps of spit isn't very good until the last upgrade. it's the range and annoyance that is ticking people off.

I'd rather get hit by 1500 over 10 seconds than 1050 in one blast from TB. Not to mention that in the 10 seconds spit takes to do 1500 I'll likely take two 1050's from TB.

When I play UB I have a lot of trouble with Oak, because shield completely negates an important/finishing spit if Oak uses it at the right time not to mention how much his melee damage hurts if built right.

I also have soo much trouble with tower Rooks, because I can spit and spit harassing him but if I chase him through those damn towers he's gonna heal off one or stun me and I'll be stuck in the middle of 4 towers which really hurts and is often fatal except for at the very end-game. Not to mention there's no chance of pushing into/taking down anymore than one tower with anything other than spit if there's another enemy DG anywhere near them.

But both of these can be overcome if there's someone on the other team who's stupid enough to run in close range without full health offering themselves up for a spit, foul grasp then melee for some free gold, which happens way too often.

Quoting scyldSCHEFING,

reply 1

No, but he's right. Most intelligently played generals are able to repel assasins single handedly, but it's a rare situation when the same can be said for an assasin vs. a general. Perhaps the only exception to this is a Rook with a full set of Towers of Light set up, but of course that takes quite a bit of time to prepare.

And not only that, but in a 2 v 2 situation, 2 generals or 1 general + 1 assasin is typically going to have the upper hand on 2 assasins. Assasins have little durability or utility to rely on for survivability, aside from some stuns or snares which generals also posses on top of shields, temporary invulnerabilities, heals, and the like.

Also, of course it's a team game, but even in a team game, there will be instances where a player is facing another one on one, even if it is a brief amount of time. And what happens during that brief 1 on 1 showdown can have an effect on the game later on when the other teammates catch up.

Don't get me wrong -- assasins are far from useless, but only if they're being backed up by a general. The same is not true for generals: an all-general team will do just fine, even if they are a little lacking in burst.

I am typically/always QoT. And I've single handedly gone up against 2 tower rooks and repelled them early on. One was a bad player, one was ok. But really, how do you screw up planting towers and sitting back? But in any case, I agree. Rook has the ability to push back generals, he's the only assassin. And generals can always push back assassins early game.

The reason why I think assassins are entirely worthless, save Regulas, is because if an assassin can't get kills early on, they are completely out of the game. If a team denies an assassin their kills, then everyone is sitting with the same pool of gold. One side isn't going to have more then the other. So given that, good players will buy siege demolishers and healers to slant the game into their favor. Then once they have pulled ahead in war score, they will continue to slant the game by upgrading to catapults and extra damage/armor for creeps. And when that has happened, the assassin is basically out of the game for good. Assassin's have nothing that can compete with general's minions. Minions require multiple aoe's and lots of mana to kill. Then you have to deal with the general themselves. Assassins have to do nothing but buy expensive items that they can only get by getting kills. So by denying them kills, again, they are taken out of the game. Or they ignore their citadel and lose the game because they are too selfish with their gold.

And i say all but Regulas because of this: Generals have a hard time finishing off players. Bad players will die, but the better players will run off and heal, come back and harass some more. So how Regulas fits in is he provides a way to finish off enemies with his snipe ability. It's the one assassin i'd ever accept on my team.

Happy Number 9?

Just to sum up quickly, anyone who thinks Spit is overpowered has never played against a good General who actually modified their playstyle ever so slightly to stop it.

Oak's Shield removes it, Sedna's Heal removes it, Erebus's Mist removes it, and Queen's Shield reduces it to around zero damage.

And there is a favor item which removes Venom Spit as well.

If anything, I think Venom Spit should be looked at in terms of reducing damage overall, but making it do more of it upfront, precisely because of the above factors.

Quoting nivina,

reply 12

Quoting scyldSCHEFING,
reply 1
No, but he's right. Most intelligently played generals are able to repel assasins single handedly, but it's a rare situation when the same can be said for an assasin vs. a general. Perhaps the only exception to this is a Rook with a full set of Towers of Light set up, but of course that takes quite a bit of time to prepare.

And not only that, but in a 2 v 2 situation, 2 generals or 1 general + 1 assasin is typically going to have the upper hand on 2 assasins. Assasins have little durability or utility to rely on for survivability, aside from some stuns or snares which generals also posses on top of shields, temporary invulnerabilities, heals, and the like.

Also, of course it's a team game, but even in a team game, there will be instances where a player is facing another one on one, even if it is a brief amount of time. And what happens during that brief 1 on 1 showdown can have an effect on the game later on when the other teammates catch up.

Don't get me wrong -- assasins are far from useless, but only if they're being backed up by a general. The same is not true for generals: an all-general team will do just fine, even if they are a little lacking in burst.

I am typically/always QoT. And I've single handedly gone up against 2 tower rooks and repelled them early on. One was a bad player, one was ok. But really, how do you screw up planting towers and sitting back? But in any case, I agree. Rook has the ability to push back generals, he's the only assassin. And generals can always push back assassins early game.

The reason why I think assassins are entirely worthless, save Regulas, is because if an assassin can't get kills early on, they are completely out of the game. If a team denies an assassin their kills, then everyone is sitting with the same pool of gold. One side isn't going to have more then the other. So given that, good players will buy siege demolishers and healers to slant the game into their favor. Then once they have pulled ahead in war score, they will continue to slant the game by upgrading to catapults and extra damage/armor for creeps. And when that has happened, the assassin is basically out of the game for good. Assassin's have nothing that can compete with general's minions. Minions require multiple aoe's and lots of mana to kill. Then you have to deal with the general themselves. Assassins have to do nothing but buy expensive items that they can only get by getting kills. So by denying them kills, again, they are taken out of the game. Or they ignore their citadel and lose the game because they are too selfish with their gold.

And i say all but Regulas because of this: Generals have a hard time finishing off players. Bad players will die, but the better players will run off and heal, come back and harass some more. So how Regulas fits in is he provides a way to finish off enemies with his snipe ability. It's the one assassin i'd ever accept on my team.

Happy Number 9?

To be fair, I think that setting up what I call an effective "tower garden" is a lot harder than it seems for reasons I don't completely understand. I'm a pretty good player with my main DG (Regulus), and I thought that using Rook's ToL would be a cinch. However, I think the real secret is that you have to basically have no weak points where an enemy will get hit by only one ToL: every point of approach has to be covered by two or more ToLs. In this way, while an enemy is attacking one, he'll be getting hit by other ones, and will have to retreat early, at best only taking a single one down.

Anyway, I'll add this about Regulus: his strength is affecting combat far from where is physically is located on the map.

That's to say: he isn't only effective because of Snipe; he's also extremely effective because of Mines. I don't think I've seen many or any Regulus players mine as effectively as I have, which is a good thing since they can be an absolute pain. Observe where most frequently the paths of retreat and advancement are by the enemy DGs, put mines there, and wait for "scyldSCHEFING killed x Demigod" or "...assisted by scyldSCHEFING." It's delicious.

But don't underestimate Rook's ToL. They can be brutal if they are set up properly, and with support from TB, Regulus, or a general, they can be a major pain.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that UB is actually a pathetic DG, and as players get better, I bet his popularity will wane as people realize that when confronted with proper support, the most he can do is spit and run, or strike opportunistically when another assasin is alone.

I'm also starting to believe that, as the assasin archetype stands now, the whole concept of a melee assasin is a flawed one, and that is why UB's spit is his one and only saving grace...

UB is easy to handle as Sedna unless he's being fed by others.

Quoting nivina,

reply 16

UB = spit and run. Honestly the most worthless demigod in the game. morso then the torch bearer. and that's saying a lot. no wait, 2 way tie between UB and Rook. Both are unbelivabley terrible.

It confuses me to no end when players die to assassins. I don't mean in gang up scenarios, i mean in general play. Assassins cannot compete with generals 1v1. The only way for assassins to kill generals is to gang up on them and hope the general is dumb enough to walk into it.

Really? i mean really. Assassin's are kinda built for doing heavy damage while the general's are set up to help their partners. The generals are pretty good for new players that are coming into the games while the assassins take abit of skill to use (like the rook). I play the UB time to time, it one my favorits. I get very in your face with him and i have, while being double team, push two generals back into retreating (as long one not QoT). Really it does come down to skill and useage of the character. I have battle Rook's and though "Geez that was easy" yet in another game i go "God i hate fighting that Demigod".

Also remember something about the spit... it a damage over time, not a pure one shot like Fireball or that sniper shot. It gives you time to drink a potion, teleport to safety, run behind your base (If your close), ect. This is why the damage is so high, while it ticking down... you also have health Regen which if it very high, could reduce the damage by 1/4 or more.

I played a game with sedna vs UB, the UB was pushing me back untill midgame and i proceded to rape him. Then late game he had better items and owned me again.

Ive had decent games vs erebus when im oak, just sheild at the right time and have him waste his bite. Its pretty much over for him if hes out of mana or if your alot faster.

No love for TB-Ice against UB? UB's primary advantages speed and the dreaded spit / run. TB-Ice handles it nicely with a speed debuff and attack debuff. (it's just the rest of the game TB-Ice stuggles with)

Also I realize this thread is a look at the dark forces primary players being UB but noticed a tangent and have played quite a few games against him. Anyone remember the early threads about the unstoppable QoT?

Quoting Haree78,

reply 7

Now I'm not saying Regulus at level 10 can't beat an UB at level 10, the issue is at the start of the game he is going to do better than me, I feel there is nothing I can do. He spits and runs, so now unless I bought pots right off the bat I'm extremely vulnerable 7 seconds later when his spit is off CD again.

The UB player will always get the early game advantage against me and an UB that is higher level than you is impossible to deal with. Not to mention when he is playing with other people it only takes someone with half a brain who knows how to intercept someone running from UB for an easy kill. The problem with the spit and run, is UB is doing one of the highest damage attacks in game and taking close to 0 damage.

See, thing is...in the early part of the game, I can't handle a Tower spamming rook. Sure, I can Spit on him...but he has popped 2 towers by the time he sees me, and to spit on him I need to get in range of them. So I spit...his towers start zapping me, he hits me once or twice and we're both hurt, but *I* am worse off.

I can't handle a Shield-using Oak, either. We see each other...move towards each other...and either I Spit just as he hits his Shield (my Spit is negated), or Spit lands and he then Shields (Spit is again negated). We trade blows, neither of us is really getting anywhere...and it's another stalemate.

A lot of Demigods give me a problem early on. That's why I don't look to kill them right out of the gate. I just try and *drive them off*. I'm not killing anyone 1 on 1 early game with just 2 Spits. It doesn't do that much damage. I move in, hit, do some damage, and then move off to look for a Creep wave to feed on, or a flag to capture, or an injured DG that one of me partners has hit and weakened.

Don't think that you've failed because you've taken damage but haven't killed me. Odds are I am low on health, out of mana, and scrambling to get somewhere where a ranged DG like TB or Regulus won't kill me. That's sort of the point; deny me my XP from flags, Creeps, and kills. Worry about outright killing me later, when you have gotten the XP you've denied me.

I just started playing UB the other day because I get pissed that Regulus has a ranged ability to hit me from the other side of the map. I think the damage is adaquate. In fact, I don't have a problem with the ability other than he can cap a flag half across the map AND hit me just enough to kill me while I'm finishing off his partner at the same time.

But that's just me ranting. So I picked up UB because I heard that Reg. players seem to hate him. After playing two matches, I realized how much fun it was to just outrun Regulus' mine ability before they arm, spit on him, then wind back. It makes me smile inside.

But, I played him again later in a 2v2 match. One side had 2 UB's and the other had 2 Rooks. It was a Fort battle. We started off okay, but the two Rooks started stacking Def. + HP gear and it came to the point that I couldn't kill them no matter how much spit + mele damage I could do. They then got a 3-5 level advantage and slowly finished us off. Even 2 v 1 we couldn't kill them since they would just leach a tower and keep going. And damn those towers they just love to throw up!

So, point in case, it's not impossible to kill a UB. Even with Spit maxed, you can survive with the right play style. Thank goodness I played QoT's later and just whipped the floor against a few Rooks.

--Xetoris

As a fairly experienced UB player I can say that Fractallicon is right on in his analysis (+Karma!).This motivated me to finally get around to putting down my own thoughts on Beast balance, but instead of slamming a massive wall of text down in the middle of this thread and derailing the discussion, I slammed down a massive wall of text over here. I think you may find it worth the read.

I dont get I JUST dont get it! Whats wrong with people!

The spit is an DoT = DAMAGE over TIME. If your not familiar with the difference between BURST and DoT damage The spit looks overpowered because you just add the numbers together ans see ZOMGWTF! 2K dmg skill!!!!

Burst= Fireball in a guys head. Pure 1200dmg and he´s dead. Assuming he has 1100hp.

DoT: Spit. 300damage(burst). 1200dmg DoT. 1100hp...dead? NOOOOO!. First you have your base hp regen. that withdraws a lot of the damage. Assume the dot is over 10sec so its 120dmg/sec. Then withdraw 5hp/sec from the basic armor. Thats 50.

Withdraw a possible sedna passive...12-36hp/sec or whatever. Another 120-360dmg reduced. Now we´re down to what? 900dmg. By the time spit does 1500 damage you prolly has another armor, taking off another hundred-few hundred. Then you can use a consumable to surive. You can walk to base and survive. NO its NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT! O-V-E-R-P-O-W-E-R-E-D! It doesnt do a whooping 1500dmg to a person! It does at MOST 900-1100. and then the guy has a serious lack of regen.

This is w/o taking into account all active spells that removes dmg. Don´t get hung up on the numbers I never seem to remember them This is more a general post so people might understand that a DoT doing a LOT more damage then an burst skill are of equal strength.

sidenot: TB-ice rules. So much fun, nice disabling skills, slows and all you want for a good fight

I think people are stuck in static playstyles. They buy certain things at the start of the game, try to follow their build strictly that they know has success, largely only adapting their lane control and killing playstyle as needed.

If you don't get out of this bad habit, your going to be stuck dealing with spit forever. It will get worse if more decent early game harrasment heros get introduced.

I know people hate Demigod being compared to Dota, but it is similar in this case.

The Lich King in dota is an early game harrasser/lane controller. He has high damage frost spells (frost nova can outright kill you if casted on most heros at lvl 3 two or three times), combined with the fact he has near limitless mana right from the start of the game, by sacrificing one of his creeps and converting it to mana. So he can KEEP harrassing you.

HTF?? do you deal with that. Simple, you deviate from your ideal build and strategy, get some hp regen items before your completely denied from the lane. Everyone always start with some "potions" in Dota because harrassment and mistakes happen. Failed gank attempts against you can also leave you hurt, this saves you a trip back to base.

The same posts were all over the Dota boards at a stage, but back then, everyone was buying Boots of Speed as their staple first item with their starting cash. They have since learnt spending their starting cash on Boots of Speed gave them virtually no staying power in their lane and they were brushed aside by strong early game heros.

IMO starting without any form of health regeneration in Demigod, just like in Dota (esp. combat potions) makes the assumption that you are going to have perfect lane control, never make a mistake where you take damage, never get ganked, never have a decent opponent in your lane etc. Spend a little extra cash, and stay in your lane longer.

Last but not least, if your still getting denied from your lane and just cannot cope, ask for a lane swap, theres nothing wrong with this. Some heros are just better suited to dealing with other heros.

Wow, now thats what I wanted to say. Gj man!

Quoting NeoVain,

reply 25

Try Oak. Put your exp points into shield, it negates the effects of spit and a lot of UBs other moves. Pestilence or whatever it's called it's extremely useful because not only does it do high damage.... it slows UB down. So if he runs off after finding out his spit bullshit didn't work, Use pest... and then give chase.... however... here's the bullshit part.... by the time you give chase and start wailing at him, he's got spit back... it has a low cooldown...and guess what... your shield will still be charging. Now you're screwed, unless you can find some creeps to keep your health up if you have divine justice and the AOE skill. Oak is the cloest I can get to beating UB... however... because of UBs fast cooldown of spit... he can still just as easily kill you. Gawd it sucks.

With his low mana pool UB can spit 3 max 4 times. Oak can survive this and with smart shield usage+ a potion stay relatively fresh aswell. Then UBs out of mana for spit or other abilities, while oak is angry as hell and ready to rumble!

QFT! Why does nobody ever seem to buy potions? The can absolutely destroy opponents who are mana dependant and hoping for that single combo to get you out of their lane and into their pocket.

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