Stat upgrade skills - any use it? » Forum Post by Deepjay

Quoting Krazikarl,

Quoting woppin, reply 24

It's good for 1v1 situations and for killing towers and that's about it. Give me a mine Reg ally over a stats build ally any day of the week.
Uh no, not at all. Auto attack reg's main goal through most of the game is to support a player that can take more damage. Pair up with something like an oak, sit back a bit, and grind away. You dont have much burst damage, but you have superb damage over time. Of course, people will be putting you high on their target list, but AA Reg's I know are almost always fast, so they just retreat while the Oak pounds on the chaser. Eventually the chaser stops, and you go back to pounding. So AA Reg is really going to be working with teammates if at all possible until leve 8-10 where you are getting Mageslayer and can then 1v1 better.

Personally, I'd rather have an AA w/shrapnel mines reg, so my foes can't flee as effectively.

Complexity is not learning that you have to press 1 click, press 2 click or whatever to do damage. Just because you have to press a number key and then wait for a cooldown in one build and you dont in the other isnt really true complexity. The complexity of DG comes from working with your team, developing strategies for your team and the DGs used on both teams, understanding the necessary builds etc etc. An AA Reg is just as complex in all the things that really make the game complex as the other DGs.

I disagree here. Using abilities consumes mana, managing mana complicates item purchasing, balancing item purchases against upgrades is a team dynamic. So there's one element of complexity that's removed.

Managing cooldowns, picking whether to creep faster, harass a high HP target, or wait to use it until a kill opportunity comes up is more complex than just right clicking on the fly. It requires more planning.

AA builds are simple, ridiculously so. The build listed in this thread took absolutely trivial abilities just to skip out on grabbing mines. I really doubt that any of the DGs were intended to be played with one hand, and I would wager they'll take means to keep it from becomming dominant, likely through itemization changes (which isn't to say it's currently needed.

I disagree here. Using abilities consumes mana, managing mana complicates item purchasing, balancing item purchases against upgrades is a team dynamic. So there's one element of complexity that's removed.

Managing cooldowns, picking whether to creep faster, harass a high HP target, or wait to use it until a kill opportunity comes up is more complex than just right clicking on the fly. It requires more planning.

AA builds are simple, ridiculously so. The build listed in this thread took absolutely trivial abilities just to skip out on grabbing mines. I really doubt that any of the DGs were intended to be played with one hand, and I would wager they'll take means to keep it from becomming dominant, likely through itemization changes (which isn't to say it's currently needed.

AF uses mana. Plus "AA" builds almost always end up using MoB and Snipe as supporting skills, and if you are going to use AF, MoB, and Snipe you are going to tear through mana like you wouldnt believe - you are going have to buy Vlemish like everybody else. So that completely nullifies the first point. Really what an AA build means is that you arent mining, not that you refuse for some strange reason to not use skills like Snipe and MoB.

AA builds generally go AF, EA, MoB, and 1 point in Snipe. I dont consider any of those to be trivial abilities, so I dont know where the claim that they are taking "trivial" abilities just to skip mines is coming from.

I also think it highly unlikely that AA builds like the Reg ones werent intended given that the completely obvious use of the extensive EA line is for an AA build, plus there are a TON of items that increase attack speed. Why have all those items and the EA skill line if you dont intend AA to be a big part of the game?

Taking a build to minimize to intentionally increase your flexibility by not being reliant in large part on cooldowns is a strategic decision that adds depth to the game. Choosing something with flexibility while sacrficing burst damage is an interesting choice, and eliminating tough strategic choices hardly makes a game more complex.

Personally, I'd rather have an AA w/shrapnel mines reg, so my foes can't flee as effectively.

By the time you get to shranel mines, you are very close to the late game (level 10, by which an AA reg usually has or will soon be getting a Mageslayer, which is when the build becomes very strong) which is when the AA build starts to shine and the mines build starts to drop off. So I just dont get this argument.

Quoting Krazikarl,

reply 4

Personally, I'd rather have an AA w/shrapnel mines reg, so my foes can't flee as effectively.
By the time you get to shranel mines, you are very close to the late game (level 10, by which an AA reg usually has or will soon be getting a Mageslayer, which is when the build becomes very strong) which is when the AA build starts to shine and the mines build starts to drop off. So I just dont get this argument.

Who can afford a mageslayer at level 10? I understand that you get nice chunks of gold for killing towers, but even then, unless you skimp out on other stuff or sell everything, I can't see getting mageslayer that early.

About AA builds: Yes, they don't require as much clicking or mana management as mana intensive builds. But honestly, the clicking required in a mana build is generally a simple combo anyway. Managing mana is a bit more complicated, but working together and all the other ingame skills are still more important and hard than keeping a little blue bar just high enough to keep using your skills. AA builds are completely viable, and no build I've ever seen takes no skills (granted, my Ooze build only takes one point in foul grasp, but I've never seen a build with NO skills).

As Reg, I tend to use stats to minimise my dependence on mana and health items, which allows me to focus on spending money on damage items, or depending on how the game is going, cit upgrades, etc. This way I not only have slightly upgraded survivability and mana regen, without spending gold on it, but also attack speed and tons more damage.

However, skills are almost always necessary, and mostly depend on the game, facing support characters, MoB is perfect; against minion builds, mines are gold, etc. If the enemy stacks speed, slow is pretty good. If you need to help a teammate, then a point in snipe can change the game.

AF uses mana. Plus "AA" builds almost always end up using MoB and Snipe as supporting skills, and if you are going to use AF, MoB, and Snipe you are going to tear through mana like you wouldnt believe

Not to be terse, but you and I aren't talking about the same thing. On the third or fourth post someone mentioned a build in which they spend only one point in snipe (inexplicably since it's wasted late game) and use no other activated abilities. They're not using mark at all, nor snipe any other time than I guess when someone has an absolutely tiny sliver of life left when they escape. The AA builds you're talking about are not the ones I'm referring to, I'm hardly against ever taking a stats upgrade, they're there to be used, I'm simply against a build that does nothing but right click their targets.

Who can afford a mageslayer at level 10? I understand that you get nice chunks of gold for killing towers, but even then, unless you skimp out on other stuff or sell everything, I can't see getting mageslayer that early.

In most games (75%+) I have it by level 11. If the other team has a bad player I have it by level 8. I'm very good at exchanging kills (if you are playing an AA build this is an important skill IMO - you need money more badly than your opponent in almost any case) and I get a lot of cheap assists with Snipe. Really you should be assisting on nearly every kill on many maps. I dont even try to kill towers until after I get Mageslayer - its a very inefficient use of time early in the game.

I dont get HoL until after Mageslayer, so that might explain why I get to Mageslayer a bit faster.

Quoting Obscenitor,

reply 7

AF uses mana. Plus "AA" builds almost always end up using MoB and Snipe as supporting skills, and if you are going to use AF, MoB, and Snipe you are going to tear through mana like you wouldnt believeNot to be terse, but you and I aren't talking about the same thing. On the third or fourth post someone mentioned a build in which they spend only one point in snipe (inexplicably since it's wasted late game) and use no other activated abilities. They're not using mark at all, nor snipe any other time than I guess when someone has an absolutely tiny sliver of life left when they escape. The AA builds you're talking about are not the ones I'm referring to, I'm hardly against ever taking a stats upgrade, they're there to be used, I'm simply against a build that does nothing but right click their targets.

Seems like a pretty pointless argument to say, "one guy said he goes with no skills and said he did well" and proceed to worry about it. Reg is the most obvious character to focus on auto attacking because his skill cooldowns are long and one of his skills directly impacts his attack damage. This just seems like a case of stubbornness for the sake of being stubborn.

You're either making a strawman argument or you're misinterpreting me. My argument is not that no skill points should ever be spent on stats by anyone, that's an absurd statement that I never made, but isn't that what you're implying I meant?

The only reason why I posted here was because a conversation about builds which literally do nothing but auto-attack cropped up. Now the conversation has changed into something else, so please just don't respond to my early posts if you're talking in the thread's new context, because it's not what they were about.

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Stat upgrade skills - any use it?