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Demigod: First week anniversary status report

By Frogboy on April 22, 2009 9:35:48 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Well I hope you guys aren’t getting sick of these status reports.  As I type this the build from last night is going up. Here’s what’s new:

  • Added check in Pantheon and Skirmish games to detect if host has cancelled or all the other human players quit, and pops up a message if this happens so that you can cancel instead of being stuck.  GPG is working on the other side of this fix to make it so that you won't have to cancel and the remaining human players can continue to the game.
  • Tweaked NAT punchthrough settings to try and make success more likely
  • Put in a proper error message for the case when the player quits rather than generic “Disconnected from NAT”
  • Put in a proper error message for the case when someone who started a pantheon game quits before others get in (should largely take care of the staring at the connecting thing forever).
  • Added additional check in the connection code to make sure that both players have connection data for each other before handing off the connection data to Demigod, which may prevent unidirectional
  • Fixed the connection dialog to refresh the players connecting more aggressively.
  • Optimized Friends list code for people with no friends
  • Messages for Disconnected from NAT facilitator now contain more useful information (disconnected because game was cancelled, game has already started, etc)
  • Reduced delay before allowing people in the lobby, which may cause more people to get in the lobby without being connected to all players.
  • Fixed an incompatibility between Direct3D and the Overlay which would cause players to crash, particularly on alt-esc.
  • Ground work for UDP Proxy, you should notice connections being faster and better if you’re in Europe.

This update should hit Impulse later tonight.  As you can tell by the change log, this is really an interim update.  We have a much more significant update in testing but we didn’t want to wait until that build was ready to get a new build out there that improves things. 

A preview of what’s next:

I can’t promise that we’ll have another update tomorrow. There’s a lot of coordination that has to take place between GPG and Stardock and we’re 3 hours apart time-zone wise.  But let me give you a head’s up on things we’re pretty close on:

  1. Taking care of the timing problem where player says they’re connected to everyone but they don’t get into the game. It’s a timing issue that’s hard to replicate but it doesn’t happen for us under normal circumstances. But it is probably the #1 issue for those who don’t have NAT issues. This really shows up in pantheon and skirmish games in particular (a player has left the game – right at the start).
  2. Custom Game player queuing. You set up a game, someone joins, another person joins but they have a yellow ping. That’s because they didn’t know about the other player. This is something that if we had another few hours would have been in tonight’s update.
  3. Experienced players not getting AI players in skirmish/pantheon.  This has been a lot trickier to do than it might seem because we really are trying to keep expert players from just reaping havoc on relatively inexperienced players.  The consensus seems that people would rather have the touch players against them than AI so we’re going to broaden things.

So those are the 3 things we are hoping to deliver tomorrow.  You may have noticed there aren’t a lot of “bug fixes” here.  That’s been the most challenging thing here. Like I say in the video below, launching Demigod has been practically like launching an ISP for us in terms of infrastructure.  What once seemed like a simple matter of tossing up a NAT negotiator that puts people into games has really become a lot more than that.  Our fault of course, we couldn’t leave good enough alone and had to have the Pantheon and the smart Skirmish mode and such but I think in the long run it’ll be worth it.

In defense of Peer to Peer

One thing I really want to stress here is that there is nothing inherently wrong with peer-to-peer.  Supreme Commander is peer-to-peer and it works fine.  The difference, of course, is how they were released.  Digital distribution is a godsend in most ways but having people from around the world playing together immediately has created a lot of the challenges that we must overcome.  That’s an over simplification here I just don’t want to see people bashing Gas Powered Games for choosing to make Demigod P2P.  They’ve had great success with it in the past and Demigod will soon be up to speed as well.

My point is, GPG has a lot of experience in this area with a proven game (Supreme Commander) that demonstrates that this works. They know their stuff.


 

+912 Karma | 81 Replies
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Reply #51
Javaslinger
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April 23, 2009 5:26:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Only played a Pantheon game last night, but here are my observations.  Connections for all players are much much faster one a 'connection' is established.

However, it still took 4 tries to actually make it into the Pantheon game.  I understand this is related to another timing bug that is stil being worked on.  But the connections do seem much better.

Once in the game, there was no long despite all pings being around 200.  That is an improvement.  No on was kicked or otherwise.

The match was a 3 vs. 2 of all human players.  Seemed at first unfair, but the Pantheon matchmaking system is undeniably smart - putting me in the 3 - resulting in a clear win by the 2....   

Thanks!

Javaslinger

Reply #52
aussiedoc
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April 23, 2009 5:38:58 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums


Reply #53
Koenigstiger
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April 23, 2009 6:26:35 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So uhh, any word on fixing the problem with resetting Favour points?  It's the only reason me and my friend are holding off playing right now.

Reply #55
aLap
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April 23, 2009 6:37:07 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Just tried multiplayer for the first time. Tournament, as Oak, light side. Here's my reaction: W00t!!!

That's one heck of a game you have there. And my team actually won! 

Now, apart from fully-fledged MMO's, I usually don't like multiplayer. I steered clear from DOTA and most DMs, TDMs, CTFs and whatnot. But here I was, learning how to play, on-the-fly, and actually being able to understand what to do... and having fun... and winning the match?!?! 

Perhaps my enthusiasm is amplified by my lack of immersion to this type of game, and Demigod is certainly appealing to the eye. All I can say is that I quite enjoyed it. Sure there was some lag and all, but no major problems.

Now, because of the great potential for addictiveness, I'm staying away from this game for a wee bee longer. I'm sure things will get even better by the time I'll get back to it.

Oh, and I actually bought Demigod before my May purchase plan because of these very same status reports. Supporting those who care enough about their customers causes no pain at all.

Reply #56
Stalja
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April 23, 2009 7:35:22 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You can't say "My point is, GPG has a lot of experience in this area with a proven game (Supreme Commander) that demonstrates that this works. They know their stuff." if you had any decency. Being unaware of so many issues and still releasing the game (and after having a beta for so long) is a sign of ignorance and poor programming as well as poor network code design choices. This has put the whole game (which in essece is an OK game) in jeopardy. We don't care if it runs on little elves and dwarves turning magical wheels in fairyland - we want to see "Connecting to game, connected, PLAY". Opening a few ports on the firewall for the game is an OK request but constantly trying to educate us about P2P, NAT, networking instead of making work the product you sold us is just plain insulting (along with the sentence quoted above). You guys are just lucky that you had such a supportive community that withstood all of your failures and still stick with you.

Reply #57
Haree78
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April 23, 2009 8:52:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Stalja,
reply 5
You can't say "My point is, GPG has a lot of experience in this area with a proven game (Supreme Commander) that demonstrates that this works. They know their stuff." if you had any decency. Being unaware of so many issues and still releasing the game (and after having a beta for so long) is a sign of ignorance and poor programming as well as poor network code design choices. This has put the whole game (which in essece is an OK game) in jeopardy. We don't care if it runs on little elves and dwarves turning magical wheels in fairyland - we want to see "Connecting to game, connected, PLAY". Opening a few ports on the firewall for the game is an OK request but constantly trying to educate us about P2P, NAT, networking instead of making work the product you sold us is just plain insulting (along with the sentence quoted above). You guys are just lucky that you had such a supportive community that withstood all of your failures and still stick with you.

Seriously, with no amount of 'fanboy'ism I can say your post is a good example of ignorance.

Reply #58
dasolid
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April 23, 2009 9:23:13 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Seriously, with no amount of 'fanboy'ism I can say your post is a good example of ignorance.

 

Hmm, no I agree mostly with his point of view... The problems that people are getting now are game breaking! Betas are there for fixing all the problems that we are getting now...!

 

It's not a small glitch or whatever, the game is unplayable for most players right now.

Reply #59
Meta
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April 23, 2009 9:27:22 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Stalja,
reply 5
You can't say "My point is, GPG has a lot of experience in this area with a proven game (Supreme Commander) that demonstrates that this works. They know their stuff." if you had any decency. Being unaware of so many issues and still releasing the game (and after having a beta for so long) is a sign of ignorance and poor programming as well as poor network code design choices. This has put the whole game (which in essece is an OK game) in jeopardy. We don't care if it runs on little elves and dwarves turning magical wheels in fairyland - we want to see "Connecting to game, connected, PLAY". Opening a few ports on the firewall for the game is an OK request but constantly trying to educate us about P2P, NAT, networking instead of making work the product you sold us is just plain insulting (along with the sentence quoted above). You guys are just lucky that you had such a supportive community that withstood all of your failures and still stick with you.

Actually, some of us that actually know our stuff enjoy hearing about what issues they're working through and what fixes they're going to put in place.  I'm sorry if his reports aren't layman enough for you, and that they're not fixing it as fast as you'd like.

The fact of the matter is that games have issues on release... always.  I remember when Halo 2 first came out, TONS of bugs when they first released it online, and that was for a console game.  World of Warcraft, even worse.  The servers were up and down constantly during the first few months while they ironed out all the kinks.  Warhammer Online or Age of Conan?  Those were like paying a subscription fee to play a beta!

If you don't like it, don't play it.  Heck, you can even return the game to them and get your money back (How's that for customer service?).  Complaining about stuff they already know about and are working on isn't going to help it get resolved any faster.

 

Quoting dasolid,
reply 7

Hmm, no I agree mostly with his point of view... The problems that people are getting now are game breaking! Betas are there for fixing all the problems that we are getting now...!

 

It's not a small glitch or whatever, the game is unplayable for most players right now.

I don't think the game is unplayable for most players right now...  I think you just like making stuff up in order to make your point seem more valid.  Just because there are posts on the forums saying "it's not working for me!!!" doesn't mean that's the majoriy.  Most of the people that the game is working for are probably too busy playing it! (I would be if i wasn't stuck at work )

Not all issues arise in beta, especially connection or server issues.  That's just the nature of game development... it's impossible to test EVERY scenario, especially the ones relating to having a heavy server load.

Reply #60
Chirmaya
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April 23, 2009 9:30:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Loving these status reports! Though my main question is if anyone has hosted that 22 minute (or however long it was) video somewhere. I totally missed it, and I love watching behind-the-scenes footage

Reply #61
Sinfulvoid
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April 23, 2009 9:32:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Stalja,
reply 5
You can't say "My point is, GPG has a lot of experience in this area with a proven game (Supreme Commander) that demonstrates that this works. They know their stuff." if you had any decency. Being unaware of so many issues and still releasing the game (and after having a beta for so long) is a sign of ignorance and poor programming as well as poor network code design choices. This has put the whole game (which in essece is an OK game) in jeopardy. We don't care if it runs on little elves and dwarves turning magical wheels in fairyland - we want to see "Connecting to game, connected, PLAY". Opening a few ports on the firewall for the game is an OK request but constantly trying to educate us about P2P, NAT, networking instead of making work the product you sold us is just plain insulting (along with the sentence quoted above). You guys are just lucky that you had such a supportive community that withstood all of your failures and still stick with you.

tever, the game is unpla

 

That's what I'm screaming. I don't see why the things he points out make him ignorant. It isn't anyones fault but Stardocks/GPG you can't just pass the blame on routers/isp's etc. These thigns should have been taken into consideration prior to launch these do this for a living. This isn't a free MOD or some shit. This is a game people PAY for. When you BUY something you expect it to work.

 

If you get in ur car and it gets you to work even 70% of the time! Would you like your car? Would you want to give it back to the dealership? I'll qq till my eye's bleed I don't even play with my router to try and avoid issue's. I won't talk about the pathing bugs Character glitchs when they don't follow demigods properly. Just the networking is pure blah...

 

BLAH

Reply #62
dasolid
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April 23, 2009 9:38:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

STOP comparing MMORPG (5000connections and more) releases to a small game (10 connections max) like this!!!

I hate the gaming situation right now... games are being released in alpha status... thats so retarded!

 

Just me being a blizz fanboy: When Warcraft 3 and Starcraft came out, you could play it right from the start. The bugs that where in there where not comparable to an untested and broken netcode!

 

The status reports are a good thing though.

Reply #63
Meta
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April 23, 2009 9:45:16 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting dasolid,
reply 11
STOP comparing MMORPG (5000connections and more) releases to a small game (10 connections max) like this!!!

I hate the gaming situation right now... games are being released in alpha status... thats so retarded!

 

Just me being a blizz fanboy: When Warcraft 3 and Starcraft came out, you could play it right from the start. The bugs that where in there where not comparable to an untested and broken netcode!

 

The status reports are a good thing though.

 

That's because blizzard has used pretty much the same infrastructure design for their RTS's since Warcraft 2.  Things get a little more complicated when you're working with a new type of netcode or connectivity.

The MMORPG comparison wasn't supposed to be a direct kind of comparison like "every game starts off like this".  It was more along the lines of showing that when something is new to a company (WoW) even if it's been done effectively in the past (Everquest) there are often still VERY big speedbumps along the way.

Reply #64
Haree78
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April 23, 2009 10:04:34 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting dasolid,
reply 7

Seriously, with no amount of 'fanboy'ism I can say your post is a good example of ignorance.

 

Hmm, no I agree mostly with his point of view... The problems that people are getting now are game breaking! Betas are there for fixing all the problems that we are getting now...!

 

It's not a small glitch or whatever, the game is unplayable for most players right now.

Hi Dasolid.

The reason I'm calling him ignorant is because he thinks that bugs in release versions of software are because of "is a sign of ignorance and poor programming as well as poor network code design choices.".  The truth is simply because these issues they are seeing now did not show themselves in the same quantities during the beta.  Believe me releasing software that ends up showing bugs that you could have never have predicted isn't the case of any of the reasons he cited, it's completely normal, the problem is the impact of these bugs is quite large (for some).

It's a mistake that the connection issues occurred, it doesn't prove they are idiots, just human.

Reply #65
FuriousBroccoli
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April 23, 2009 10:34:49 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Moonlapse,
reply 12

That's because blizzard has used pretty much the same infrastructure design for their RTS's since Warcraft 2.  Things get a little more complicated when you're working with a new type of netcode or connectivity.

Hilarious.  Warcraft 2 and Starcraft use Peer-to-Peer networking, and those games are over 10 years old now...not exactly a new type of netcode there

Here's to hoping GPG gets the matchmaking worked out soon.  The patch last night made server listings much more responsive, but I still gave up when I couldn't get into game lobbies after several minutes of establishing connections.

Reply #66
SmellyIrishMan_
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April 23, 2009 10:48:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

quoting post
Well I hope you guys aren’t getting sick of these status reports.

Supreme Commander is peer-to-peer and it works fine.

 

The updates are the reason I bought the game. You've convinced me that you're in it for the right reasons and I support that (along with the Gamers Bill of Rights).

But SC/FA does still have connection issues to this day (and need(s/ed) more bug fixing).  

Reply #67
lemmingjesus
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April 23, 2009 10:51:48 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

quoting post

Supreme Commander is peer-to-peer and it works fine.


My point is, GPG has a lot of experience in this area with a proven game (Supreme Commander) that demonstrates that this works. They know their stuff.

Yeah, it works fine now. Supeme Commander had the same problems as Demigod when it was released.

Reply #68
DeadMG
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April 23, 2009 10:53:39 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sinfulvoid, you're an idiot. The point he makes about Supreme Commander is extremely valid. The difference between buying a car and buying Demigod is that every road is the same. A car is an isolated system. On the other hand, there are a billion third, fourth, fifth party things on your machine that can interfere with the game. Like ISP. They often set themselves to filter BitTorrent and other P2P traffic for legal reasons and because they consitute a massive amount of traffic. What the hell do you want Stardock to do, pay every ISP for all the bandwidth lost to BitTorrent?

Moreover, you can get a fuil refund if Demigod doesn't work as advertised, just like a car.

Reply #69
eX^
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April 23, 2009 10:57:18 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting PurplePaladin,
reply 21
Hey Exile96, yup, what you said.  I could not get into your game, or any or ther game.  So I finally tried a Skirmish/Quick-match.  It took about 10 minutes to get it going, but I finally did get into a game. 2v2, but that's the humans; it added 6 AI's for a 5v5.  But the game ran smooth till the end after that.

 

Haha, we saw you a few times .  For some reason you could never connect, no hard feelings for the eject, eh?  Was mainly because you were connected but could not join or stuck connected to everyone and could not join the lobby of the game.

Reply #70
CariElf
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April 23, 2009 11:01:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

We are also very close to fixing the favor point bugs.

The new queuing system that we're working on will make the NAT code a lot better as it will eliminate a lot of the timing issues, and the proxy servers will allow you to connect to people you previously wouldn't have been able to connect to so getting into  a game should go much more smoothly.

As for those of you who cannot connect to the facilitator at all, we're working on that.

 

Reply #71
/b/
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April 23, 2009 11:31:10 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting CariElf,
reply 19
We are also very close to fixing the favor point bugs.

The new queuing system that we're working on will make the NAT code a lot better as it will eliminate a lot of the timing issues, and the proxy servers will allow you to connect to people you previously wouldn't have been able to connect to so getting into  a game should go much more smoothly.

As for those of you who cannot connect to the facilitator at all, we're working on that.

 

 

Reply #72
mrmud
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April 23, 2009 11:40:55 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting CariElf,
reply 19
We are also very close to fixing the favor point bugs.
 

 

Thats good, I have suspended my playing until its fixed.

Reply #73
Awbee
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April 23, 2009 11:44:53 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting CariElf,
reply 19
We are also very close to fixing the favor point bugs.

The new queuing system that we're working on will make the NAT code a lot better as it will eliminate a lot of the timing issues, and the proxy servers will allow you to connect to people you previously wouldn't have been able to connect to so getting into  a game should go much more smoothly.

As for those of you who cannot connect to the facilitator at all, we're working on that.

 

 

I seriously can't wait. Gameranger is a great partial solution but I'd like to use the official lobbysystem.

Reply #74
Ultroman
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April 23, 2009 11:45:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

We LOVE the status reports!! Your support is phenomenal.

And just to bring a little sunshine: I played 5 successful matches without a hitch last night. There was a bit of lag in the first match, but one had horrible ping. This made the game resync once in a while, but nowhere near unplayability. It was more like convenient pauses, in that everyone stood still and could do nothing. Sort of like bullettime, for 2 seconds every 5 minutes or so

What I'm trying to say is, my online experience has been very positive, and I was very impressed by the way lag was handled and the gameplay in general. The game is so much more intense and unpredictable in online matches. All I need now is the ability to join a game with a friend, without having to depend solely on luck, then I'll be the happiest unclean beast with Internet. But I know that's coming in a month or two, No rush, though. I'm sure everyone agrees we'd rather it works well, than it getting there fast.

This will be an online sensation, guys, so give it all you got! I wouldn't even mind if you started taking $5 per new map or something. GO STARDOCK and Gas Powered Games.

Reply #75
damoose
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April 23, 2009 12:10:58 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

And the Goddess spoke to the unworthy....

Quoting CariElf,
reply 19
We are also very close to fixing the favor point bugs.

Verily...

Quoting CariElf,
reply 19
The new queuing system that we're working on will make the NAT code a lot better as it will eliminate a lot of the timing issues, and the proxy servers will allow you to connect to people you previously wouldn't have been able to connect to so getting into  a game should go much more smoothly.

And lo...

Quoting CariElf,
reply 19
As for those of you who cannot connect to the facilitator at all, we're working on that.

As spoke the Goddess, so shall it be.  And woe to those unbelievers as they shall be cast into the pit underneath to suffer for eternity.

 

Reply #76
chaos40
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April 23, 2009 1:16:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

No!! I wanted to see video.  30 minutes would have been fine!

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