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Science and God (One and the same?)

By Gh0st_Note- on April 11, 2009 11:18:21 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Gh0st_Note-

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Has it ever occured to anyone that, over the course of history, humans often come to the conclusion that anything that cannot be explained at the moment is automatically considered to be supernatural? For example, the Greeks. They had a god for just about anything that they could not explain with their means of science or technology at the time. How else could they explain the torrent of fire and molten lava that spwes out of a volcano? By claiming that Hephasteus is simply working in his forge of course.

But fast forward to today. And we know that isn't the case. The advent of computers, automobiles, airplanes, etc etc etc, would simply astound the Ancient Greeks. They would consider us gods. They would be unable to speak out of pure awe.

And since science is never ending in the sense that, with each question answered, more questions are formed... we still do not have a logical explanation for God. That being that supposedly judges us from afar, and moves through us all.

Think about it though... what if we just haven't reached the technological threshold to explain it yet?

It could be possible, that "God" is nothing more than a wave that interacts with our matter. Influencing our decisions with maybe electrical impulses or something similar. Religion is making "god" more important than it really is. With the advent of more powerful technology, we may be able to see what it is that moves through us all. More than likely, it is just another force of nature. It justs exists. It is there, always has been. But it is not a being, it is not something to worship... it is just not something we can understand. YET.

Basically, what I am trying to say is, we humans have proven over time that with the advent of better technology we can understand the ways of nature around us. So what's to stop us from unlocking the secrets of the universe? As well as explaining what "god" really is? We just can't comprehend it yet... but we will in time I think. Just like we did with volcanoes, oceans, telephones, airplanes, etc etc etc.

Religion is powerful in many ways no doubt. It helps certain people get through rough times, and to them, it explains the way things are as well giving them a code of ethics that they can follow. But religion is also on a way ticket to being obsolete. If science can bridge the gap between the two, what now?

Now just so everyone knows, I am not trying to attack anyones beliefs, I am merely wondering outloud if the above could be the case. I would also like to hear what other people have to say. Please be open-minded, and rational.

I will explain in better detail some ideas that I have heard as well some of my own if a great dialogue can be established.

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Reply #1
Daikaze
Join Date 02/2008
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April 12, 2009 2:15:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Why's there a thread about me and science?  I think it goes against the rules to have topics on religion.

https://forums.demigodthegame.com/132685

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Reply #2
unkn0wnx
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April 12, 2009 2:25:40 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

One word, no.  What you said isn't logical.  Just because caveman would be amazed at what we can do does not mean we can over come everything.  That is like saying lifting weights make you stronger and therefore you will be able lift an elephant one day.

And science simply brings forth more questions than answers.

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Reply #3
Jethro420
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April 12, 2009 3:06:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

No science and god are not one in the same, science has proved god is a hoax long ago.
as god is asociated with religion, wich is only a belief nothing more.

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Reply #4
landisaurus
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April 12, 2009 4:20:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think 'god' is vague with an ever broadening concept, and 'science' is something intent on being as specific and exact as possible.   So I'd say there were near opposites in concept.  Though "quantum science" might argue against me.

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Reply #5
Gh0st_Note-
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April 12, 2009 4:31:17 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I didn't say God existed. That's exactly my point, God doesn't exist. What I said science could prove, is the concept of god. It would show that the concept of god is nothing special, only a set of mathematical equations, formulas, and so forth.

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Reply #6
Gh0st_Note-
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April 12, 2009 4:36:37 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
"unkn0wnx

One word, no.  What you said isn't logical.  Just because caveman would be amazed at what we can do does not mean we can over come everything.  That is like saying lifting weights make you stronger and therefore you will be able lift an elephant one day.

And science simply brings forth more questions than answers."

I don't think you understood at all what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about physical strength. But if you want to use your little example, yes we could. With advancements, in medicine, genetics, robotics, so forth, we damn well could lift an elephant one day.

Anyways, I was talking more a long the lines of mathematics. AND if you had even read my post you'd see that I acknoloedged that science does indeed bring forth more questions than answers, but the point is, things that humanity at one time could not explain, are now explainable due to science! Understand now? Matter and space is next to be understood.

 

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Reply #7
Gh0st_Note-
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April 12, 2009 4:38:00 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Guys read the book "Dante's Equation" by Jane Jensen to get a better idea of what I am talking about.

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Reply #8
DWMiller88
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April 12, 2009 4:39:57 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Protocept00,
reply 5
I didn't say God existed. That's exactly my point, God doesn't exist. What I said science could prove, is the concept of god. It would show that the concept of god is nothing special, only a set of mathematical equations, formulas, and so forth.

 

Why should the concept of God need to be proven? What's next, using science to explain the true nature of the Easter Bunny?  Either you believe in God or you don't, if you don't, then there's no aspect of God which needs explaining, as those aspects don't exist in the first place.

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Reply #9
unkn0wnx
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April 12, 2009 4:40:27 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Someone please prove that there is no God. 

In fact that line of thought is illogical.

Anyone who assume there is no God is just arrogant.  Watch implies watch maker.  Especially when that watch is infinitely complex and infinitely large.

 

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Reply #10
unkn0wnx
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April 12, 2009 4:46:34 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't think you understood at all what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about physical strength. But if you want to use your little example, yes we could. With advancements, in medicine, genetics, robotics, so forth, we damn well could lift an elephant one day.

Anyways, I was talking more a long the lines of mathematics. AND if you had even read my post you'd see that I acknoloedged that science does indeed bring forth more questions than answers, but the point is, things that humanity at one time could not explain, are now explainable due to science! Understand now? Matter and space is next to be understood.

 
[/quote]

I used strength as an example.  lets talk again if you can lift an elephant.

I can make that argument all day as well, maybe in three thousand years we can understand this and that.  So maybe this post is thousands years too early. 

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Reply #11
DWMiller88
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April 12, 2009 4:58:40 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting unkn0wnx,
reply 9
Someone please prove that there is no God. 

In fact that line of thought is illogical.

Anyone who assume there is no God is just arrogant.  Watch implies watch maker.  Especially when that watch is infinitely complex and infinitely large.

 

 

The difference being that while a watch is something we know to be of intelligent design, the same does not apply to the Universe. Naturally, we like to assume that anything that exists had to have been created by something else, but you can prove that no more than I can prove that God does not exist, but I also can't prove the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist, so what?

Also, the very existance of a God in the first place is contrary to your argument that everything needs to have been precedented by something else. The argument that God has always existed is no more or less valid than saying the same of the Universe.

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Reply #12
b0rsuk
Join Date 03/2009
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April 12, 2009 7:20:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Faith vs Science

 

In general, it's much harder to prove that something doesn't exist than to prove than it exists.

 

I say Invisible Pink Unicorn exists. How do you disprove that ? Furthermore, I can quote two proofs:

Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them.

 

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Reply #13
alway
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April 12, 2009 7:22:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

http://www.stonemakerargument.com/1.html

The argument that God has always existed is no more or less valid than saying the same of the Universe.

Apply Occam's Razor here.

Can we disprove god? No. Therefore, it is not science.

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Reply #14
Infidel
Join Date 04/2009
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April 12, 2009 11:23:18 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

"The myth has to deal with the cosmology of today, and it's no good when it's based on a cosmology that's out of date. That's one of our problems. I don't see any conflict between religion and science. Religion has to accept the science of the day and penetrate it to the mystery. The conflict is between the science of 2,000 B.C. and the science of 2,000 A.D., and this is one of the problems with our tradition: where our inherited mythology, let's say our Judeo-Christian tradition relates to the Near East in the first millenium B.C. and it has nothing to do with life here and everything has to be explained. A mythological image that has to be explained to the brain is not working. When you move through a culture that is so alien to your own that the images don't click off any response, any recognition, then you're out of sync." - Joseph Campbell

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Reply #15
the_Peoples_Party
Join Date 08/2008
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April 12, 2009 1:57:43 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

First, just because we have technology that people in the past did not have does not make us any smarter/more intelligent than them.

Second, if I put you into a blacksmith shop (from the 1400s) and asked you to make me a sharp sword and a suit of amor I'm sure that you wouldn't know what to do.  That is even banking on that all of the appropriate tools are there as well.

Third, you say that THEY wouldn't be able to speak because they would be in pure awe of the technology that we have.  It seems that you think that everyone that lived prior to the 19th century on downwards was a complete mooncalf.  All of the technology that we have is just built off of some previous technology.

People did some amazing things way back in the day from the vikings extracting metal from marshes/swamps, to navigate accross the oceans by the stars, and I'm not even talking about the weapons they had.

To make a statement that eventually science will be able to explain everything as a scientist yes this is our goal but we are not foolish enough to speak such a claim.  So don't be lepton and make such a foolish claim.

Speaking of Leptons.  We thought that atoms were the smallest particles BUT it wasn't until 60 years ago that we realized oh wait atoms are made up of something as well called quarks. 

We don't even completely understand our very OWN bodies.  For example, it use to be a common procedure to remove someone's appendix because we didn't think it did anything.  Now, appendix aren't being removed unless necessary because people in the medical field are thinking may be it does do something.

I don't have the time nor the energy to discuss the irrational/illogical of borsuk's and alway's post.

As Scientists we are always exploring and looking.

 

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Reply #16
Daikaze
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April 12, 2009 2:17:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting unkn0wnx,
reply 9
Anyone who assume there is no God is just arrogant.  Watch implies watch maker.  Especially when that watch is infinitely complex and infinitely large.

 

By this same logic we can assume that God was created by a higher being." It exists, therefore it had to be made" so either God was made, or God doesn't exist... Or this logical arguement simply is incorrect, in which case we can simply assume that the Universe exists because it exists and there is no intelligent design behind it all.

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Reply #17
Leauki
Join Date 02/2004
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April 12, 2009 2:38:10 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Watch implies watch maker. 

Actually, "watch maker" implies "watch".

It's the "watch maker" who is defined by what he does (he makes "watches"), but the "watch" is not defined by who made it but how it behaves (it tells time).

If there were no watch maker, a watch would still be a watch by virtue of its telling the time.

But if there were no watch, there could not be a watch maker.

 

 

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Reply #18
Leauki
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April 12, 2009 2:38:57 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

By this same logic we can assume that God was created by a higher being.

A god maker?

What was there first, the god or the god maker?

Are we G-d's creation or is He ours? What if those are really the same things?

 

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Reply #19
Scoutdog
Join Date 07/2008
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April 12, 2009 3:29:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Actually, you would need a god-maker-maker, and then you would need a god-maker-maker-maker, and (s)he would have to have a god-maker-maker-maker-maker and so on, until you eventually get the "infinity over infinity" problem which could be used to reason that there is never really an end to anything, just more and more layers. In essence, a universe containing God would have to be infinite and self-organising, without an ultimate creator at all. So, if you look at it that way, it is completely impossible to have anything approachng a conventional god, as there is always  a next-higher being.

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Reply #20
astrath
Join Date 04/2006
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April 12, 2009 3:31:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The idea that there is a contradiction between science and religion is mostly a 20th century invention (along with intelligent design, ultra-Darwinism etc).  Darwin was supported by most elements of the church when he published the Origin of Species.

 

I don't believe in the title of the thread, mainly due to the fact that science is by definition a rational pursuit of knowledge about the world, while religion could be considered non-rational (not irrational).  You cannot logically deduce the existence or non-existence of God, hence religion and science are seperate.

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Reply #21
Vinraith
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April 12, 2009 4:59:31 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Google "god of the gaps," it's essentially what you seem to be getting at.

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Reply #22
Proletari
Join Date 12/2008
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April 12, 2009 5:13:38 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

sorry,I didnt read previous posts

Universe is God

Life is God

Nature is God

it is all,it is everywhere,it is connected

 

or if we try to explain god in a less brain washing way -it is  some kind of spirit that connects everything

here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

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Reply #23
unkn0wnx
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April 12, 2009 5:41:54 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

By this same logic we can assume that God was created by a higher being." It exists, therefore it had to be made" so either God was made, or God doesn't exist... Or this logical arguement simply is incorrect, in which case we can simply assume that the Universe exists because it exists and there is no intelligent design behind it all.
[/quote]

By that argument everything is nonsense.  The universe simply exist because it exist is nonsesense.  And no inteligent design is nonsense; it can't just appear out of nowhere.  Therefore we are back to where we started.  Maybe its just finite beings trying to understand infinite universe.  If you can accept that the universe always existed why can there not be a creator who always existed?  I would think having a creator who always existed who created this universe makes more sense than just have a universe that simply exist?  And by having no proof, the lines between science, science-fiction and religion seem to merge.  At any rate its pointless.

We can't prove and we can't disapprove, but we somehow know.....

Happy Easter anyway.

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Reply #24
Coelocanth
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April 12, 2009 5:59:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting unkn0wnx,
reply 23
If you can accept that the universe always existed why can there not be a creator who always existed? 

 

Because, if the universe always existed, it's unnecessary for there to be a creator and because there's no evidence that a creator exists.

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Reply #25
Sole Soul
Join Date 12/2007
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April 12, 2009 6:00:32 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

If you can accept that the universe always existed why can there not be a creator who always existed?

Science isn't arguing that the universe has always existed, for one.

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