About Beta Builds Of Anything

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By WarlokLord on January 12, 2009 5:35:54 PM from

A number of people have posted on these forums regarding their disappointment in either the stability or the raw state of Demigod Beta 1 and then Beta 2 (as well as the Entrenchment expansion for Sins Of A Solar Empire). For those who were unaware that the pre-order allowed access to a Beta rather than a full & complete game - due to exposure only to the product listing in the Impulse store for example - I have both sympathy and understanding. Not everyone is plugged into forums, and the listings could have been listed as "beta" incarnations.

Otherwise however I am afraid I cannot sympathize. From my own perspective everything regarding the beta process on these titles - from these companies - has been extremely clear. I have never once been surprised by terms or conditions beyond a sudden unexpected beta version update getting released before its predicted schedule. From the very moment the products were announced it was clear what conditions applied to pre-orderers, what such would allow you to partake of before the real retail game was released. GPG and Stardock and Ironclad have been very forthright in every regard.

As for being disappointed in a beta, welcome to the world of beta code. Thats why many people opt not to participate in betas - sure, you get to contribute to the development of a game you may enjoy, but a number of caveats apply. You may become sick of the game by the time it gets released. You may become so familiar with the elements of the game that by retail a great deal of the 'magic' may have disappeared (since despite polish and flouirishes you know how things work). The final development of the game may take a path you do not favour, turning the experience into one you are not as in love with as you were with the initial concept. Net code - which is arguably the most challenging aspect of a computer game - might be the part of the code base that *requires* the most testing and patience. Some people get paid to do this, remember.

I recall my experience or lack thereof with the beta for SEGA`s Universe At War from Petroglyph Studios. The beta looked intriguing, but the first taste of actual gameplay took place for me only when the demo was officially released and the beta had long since ended. I was able to comment upon the menu interface, my failed experience with Games For Windows LIVE, and the overall feel of the subject matter. To be blunt, that beta sucked, and not necessarily due to any slackness of the developers: I volunteered, I contributed what I could, missed out on the fun to be had, yet participated and was grateful to do so to that degree. It was generous of SEGA and Petroglyph to indulge folks, simply unfortunate that things worked the way they did.

Games For Windows LIVE sucks.

(grin at-least-back-then`ishly)

By contrast the Impulse experience has been remarkable. With Demigod we have thus far played on 6 (?) maps, with 6 of 8 initial Demigods (maybe more! MORE! MORE! ... he said hinting`shly), with a multitude of item types, with access to special persistent items, with a range of flag types, and with access to citadel upgrades. Thats alot of elements from the full game (!). With Entrenchment, we get to play with newer models & textures, graphical enhancements that keep flowing from the art departments & engineers, the primary assets from Entenchment including Starbases/Starbase tech trees and Minelayers, and new net code. Unfortunately that code is problematic, but again its a beta. Thats the whole point of a beta. The developers who are already busy dealing not only with their current projects but future ones - including additional expansions to the very games we currently speak of - leap onto the forums to read our comments & complaints, sifting through, absorbing, and **very often** discussing issues with us (the gamers). Now, if you object to the gameplay, finding it somehow unfun or not your cup of tea, thats fine, but to object to the actual beta process and the overall code quality is I must declare both unfair and nonsensical. These folks are civil and responsive. The code is overall top-notch work. The manner in which these betas have been conducted deserves praise, not condemnation.

+18 Karma | 22 Replies

I agree warlocklord that this is a beta not final product and stardock has to me the most communication i have ever seen between developers and gamers. just give stardock time to fix what we want to be fixed but no i beleive they are concentrating on netcode so we can test it better.

I agree. Excellent post. I am very happy that GPG and Stardock are handling the beta as well as they are.

Well spoken! I am happy to be part of the beta because I am excited about the project. Also, I really want Stardock to do well so I am happy to give them encouragment in the form of my preorder.

I think the community and the forums for the most part has been pretty decent as well. I have seen forums become examples of the worst kind of human behavior. Senseless, anonymous noise. Not the case here.

Overall, I am happy with the whole deal.

I haven't actually seen anyone complain about the beta process.

A public beta is a marketing exercise as well as a wide bug-test. But I broadly agree with the thrust of your post.

Great post, I have wanted to post something very similar to this, but it wouldn't have come out as eloquently. I had it all figured out, it was basically:

"Stop bitching on the netcode and new generals. Shutup about not enough items."

Your post was much more productive and I applaud you.

Sorry but I must add some constructive criticism to this because I feel GPG (From my experience with Demigod Beta only) should have delayed the beginning of this whole process. Maybe you guys just really needed the money or something but I'd rather see a beta where your plan has followed through and there isn't any "winging" things. You had an "idea" but your idea hasn't really followed through as the game is coming together and both Assassins and Generals need alot of reworking. (Assassins just don't seem overly "lethal" to me and I expected battles to be a bit faster paced and micro-oriented) I just feel a beta works better when you as a company feel the game is at a good point and needs balance testing instead of a game that is mid-development and things haven't really been looked at to any extent. Beta's are where everything happens but it's still nice to get the obvious errors out of the way before we gotta deal with them.

Alot of these internet issues etc. could have been avoided just by delaying things and letting the work that needs to be, be done. It just doesn't seem fair to a customer that you constantly tell us "Ok I swear this beta version will be the fun one" and then have the defence of well we are still at an engine test etc. If you still plan on releasing this game in February this game will be nowhere to the point it needs to be. I hope the true "polished" beta will start soon and we can have a few months of helping this game become truly a fun competitive game.

I believe GPG had the right idea with this game and if they put the work that needs to be done into it will be a unique and fun expereince for everyone.

Quoting mrgerry131,

reply 7

If you still plan on releasing this game in February this game will be nowhere to the point it needs to be. I hope the true "polished" beta will start soon and we can have a few months of helping this game become truly a fun competitive game.

Frogboy stated, "If I had to guess, I think Demigod is going to end up coming out in April."

Quoting mrgerry131,

reply 7

You're welcome to that opinion but that is NOT what stardock betas are. The benefit of true betas this early in the process are your suggestions can actually be incorporated. You can actually make changes that effect how the game plays, not just minor tweaks to character stats. This is a true beta, most companies release Gamma version which only need stat changes and call them betas. Typically betas from other companies are used more for marketing than changes to the game. If you look at the early dev diaries, stardock explicitly states how this beta will work.

Quoting mrgerry131,

reply 7

Alot of these internet issues etc. could have been avoided just by delaying things and letting the work that needs to be, be done.

Well I can agree with you here to some degree, people were screaming bloody hell. Those in the beta and those waiting to get in were pissed that beta 2 was already pushed from Nov 15ish to Dec 18th. In other words, fans really demaded this.

Quoting mrgerry131,

reply 7

It just doesn't seem fair to a customer that you constantly tell us "Ok I swear this beta version will be the fun one" and then have the defence of well we are still at an engine test etc.

Some of us, especially those from beta 1, find this fun. If you think this is an engine test, good thing you weren't in Beta 1. The only major test this round is internet connections and generals' play style.

Quoting mrgerry131,

reply 7

I believe GPG had the right idea with this game and if they put the work that needs to be done into it will be a unique and fun expereince for everyone.

Add suggestions to help improve the game, wait for the next patch, or if you really need it polished wait for beta 3 or, hell, the April release.

Not to be rude, I really try to promote an open feeling, but you kinda walked into this one. You came into a thread about us being annoyed that people are complaining too much about betas and then complained like for three paragraphs. Please realize this is an actual beta, this is how stardock does betas, and this is not a gamma meant for balance only. Please be patient.

Frogboy stated, "If I had to guess, I think Demigod is going to end up coming out in April."

Good

I find it hard to really critique a game when we are only given half-versions of it. A great beta to me would be one where they have the game ready and are WILLING to make changes to the game play. Only company out there that will do this is Blizzard though. Blizzard has been doing this from the start as well it isn't just because they make insane amounts of money from WoW.

I didn't mind Beta 1. I played it a week and had some games with you if I remember right. They did start this 3-4 months ago... They already knew the online interface was slow there was really no need to release this beta so early other than to keep people interested in the game because they felt the need to hurry it out.

I didn't mean to derail this thread I was just hoping to have a discussion on what I feel a beta should be like.

No, a great beta is where they have a game that ISNT ready, but are willing to make changes. That means we actually get to change how the gameplay works early on and make sure everything turns out good. Thats the whole point of a beta. Us consumers want to have as big as an impact on the game, and in order to do that they have to give us a version of the game as early as possible. I dont want a beta where the game is already ready, and the only impact I have on the game is "regulus attack +2, Rook defence +4". We are actually gifted with the chance to choose how the game is when it is ready. Thats what a beta is...

How can you be completely sure if things work when you don't have a complete product ready for you? And I didn't say the changes would be simple stat changes.... I'll repeat my sentence "A great beta would be one where they have the game ready and are WILLING to make changes to gameplay" We can still have our input and the company will make changes that are needed. A company can't rely too much on the consumers because people want so many different things from a game.

You would be pissed if beta 1 worked flawlessly then they release this to get people in beta 2 and you cannot play take your comment and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. The whiners is why I can't play and I pre-ordered this game within 2 hours of its announcement which will be a whole year in advance of release not one of these I pre-ordered in august hell I pre-ordered April 8th!!! I paid and I can complain when something doesn't work it's a beta you have good and bad and that is life if you can't handle it go live in a glass house so I can throw stones at it. People have a right to their opinion like you had so I am giving you mine shut up!!!!

As I've said elsewhere in the forums, the reason I think betas like this are so successful is that the developers get a lot of honest, constructive criticism at an early enough stage that they are capable of making sweeping changes.

Everything said, I've had no stability problems in this beta, and half of the bugs other people seem to have are absent with me. The only thing I take issue with is the netcode at the moment, but I'm told that's being sorted and I'm happy to wait.

I think your missing the point. To get the game ready, they have to beta test it. Thats what this is for...so when the game is out it will be "ready". And we are here to make sure it is.

Not to insult blizzard or anything, i mean their games are awesome except Wow because to me it killed warcraft. Their beta process wasn't as good as this. Their giving it to us early so we can make major changes which for the most part have already been done. but now they continue to put more stuff in the game and make changes depending on how we react. Usually their is an idea that most people agree with at end of thread. Now as was said earlier beta 2 was released because wanted it to. they told us they wanted to work more on it so instead of delaying they said they would make patches. If u think beta2 isnt that good now wait till they put what they wanted to put into it.

The Elemental beta begins this June and the game won't be released until the following February. And you can be assured, the beta for Elemental will be a LOOTTT rougher than Beta 1 of Demigod.

The whole point is to have the final released game have the same benefit that usually doesn't show up in most games until well after release.

Games are an interative process to develop. Getting feedback and suggestions makes for a better game. The earlier, the better.

For me, the best part of a Stardock produced app or game, is going through it andlookiing at this or that and know that this or that was so-and-so's idea or "remember th discussion about that?" or, best of all . . . "That's me. I did that."

Whatever preconcieved pre-Stardock idea of a beta you had . . it's not what this is. This isn't (just) marketing. This is community. This is gamers that play and gamers that develop coming together to make something better.

I just feel a beta works better when you as a company feel the game is at a good point and needs balance testing instead of a game that is mid-development and things haven't really been looked at to any extent. Beta's are where everything happens but it's still nice to get the obvious errors out of the way before we gotta deal with them.

You are obviously in the wrong beta then because this is exactly whay this one is about. Dealing with the "obvious errors" which. as strange as it may seem, may not be affecting the Devs.

It just doesn't seem fair to a customer that you constantly tell us "Ok I swear this beta version will be the fun one" and then have the defence of well we are still at an engine test etc.

I don't think they ever claimed that the betas are supposed to be like an unofficial demo. If you see posts about them, they explain pretty well that almost none of Stardock's previous betas were any fun until almost the last minute. So in the end, yes, beta1 was is an engine test. You're supposed to be hunting for engine bugs, not only trying to fix the gameplay (although of course the Devs are open to that as well). Beta2 is about the netcode bugs. When we're trying to fix the gameplay bugs and improve the "fun" factor we'll probably be at beta3

I perfectly understand that they said alot of those things db0 but I just feel that this would be a more efficient process if the beta didn't start 5 months ago. I also love the amount of effort you guys are putting in to posting with the community. Only companies I really follow now is GPG and Blizzard. Relic and EA lost my faith (Though CoH, the original, was fun).

I'll go a bit more depth on the efficient statement, if those whole process had been delayed and waited till we had an easier means of playing games online you would get much better input because more people would have experience with the game. When I played Beta 1 I couldn't get a feel of how the game should be played because getting games was quite a hassle in general and input was coming from a very small pool of people. There's only so much you can really comment on when you play against CPU players. Releasing an engine test with only LAN capability is fine but the better input would come with the majority playing (and playing at a competitive level).

*Note: Sorry If I'm misinformed on Beta 2's activity I couldn't join games

I'll compromise on how you guys release your beta's raw just so people can get a feel for the game but this beta will do wonders with online matchmaking.

Gerry, I think the problem here is that you joined too early. If you think you would have been more constructive at beta3, then you should stop playing until that comes out. There are others who think they can have a constructive input before that however (including Stardock employees) so for them, the option to play Beta1 and Beta2 is open.

The demigod beta is a lot rougher than many other betas. That is because many other betas only start bringing in players for stress testing or using it to generate hype. Yes, demigod is rough. However, that means your imput can influence more about the game since everything isn't set in stone. They have actually communicated things quite well and taken feedback as opposed to most companies that ignore it.

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 16

The Elemental beta begins this June and the game won't be released until the following February. And you can be assured, the beta for Elemental will be a LOOTTT rougher than Beta 1 of Demigod.

Looking forward to it. Ditto for the other Sins betas in the pipe.

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About Beta Builds Of Anything

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