[Gameplay/Balance] Stacking Demigods

By Ke5trel on January 7, 2009 3:13:04 PM from

Variations on a theme. We've looked at stacked stuns and items, now let's think on Demigods for a moment. What happens when you stack the same ability from multiple DGs?

One example (from an IRC convo with Gazpar and Mcmjon, thanks guys):

At full range and skill Regulus can snipe for a little less than 1000 dmg. 5 Regs on a team means almost 5k focused damage from one ability with a low cooldown and extreme range. An organized team of level 15 Regs could hypothetically destroy one enemy DG every 10 seconds until they ran out of mana pots.

Or what about Mines? At level 15 Regulus can produce 12 mines with high slow and damage properties and low cooldown. 5 Regulus players on a team could throw out 60 mines in about a minute. 6-8 maxed mines will kill most DGs.

Please note, I'm picking on Regulus only because he's the DG I'm most familiar with. I'm not calling to nerf him at all. I'm sure you could extrapolate any DG's abilities the same way. TB's fireball, Rook's Hammerslam, UB's Life Drain, etc.

So the conclusion I'm reaching is that few elements of the game at this point have been balanced in multiples. I'm sure that won't hold at release, but some potential solutions in this case:

1. Make 'each team may have only one of each DG' mandatory in tournament leagues where teams are organized. Limiting it to two each per team might be a more flexible approach in this vein.

2. Give stacked abilities diminishing returns, so the first snipe gets full damage, second snipe gets 70% damage, and dropping off steeply from there. This would be useful in the case of all other currently bent mechanics like stuns and favor items.

Other thoughts?

+118 Karma | 23 Replies

Beta 1 had an option in the game option to remove the dublicate dg.

Maybe I just dont't get it, but if 5 of the same demigod use a power all on 1 opponent or 5 different demigods focus their individual power on 1 opponent, either way that guy is screwed. That is the key to the game, in my opinion; work together and avoid groups of enemy demigods. The fix for this is the flag system. If the opposing team is too focused on stayingying close and in formation, your team can pick up spawn portal flags and push the other lanes to avoid them. This allows you to win by focusing on their citadel by going around them. And with the other team knowing this, they will tend to seperate more to save flags and work in teams of two and occasionally seperate off from one another and go solo. This is where the real strategy in demigod takes place. The strategy isn't simply your demigod and your item selection, but how you work in a team.

That might be just a reality to be lived with - I think any type of remedy would wind up being arbitrary and ultimately unfair.

The best solution is to control the number of duplicate Demigods allowable in a game. As the number of selectable Demigods increases a default setting of "Unique" for Demigod types would be more and more feasable. Ten to twelve Demigod choices would be ideal; let the fighting over The Rook, Torch-Bearer, and Lord Erebus commence...

(grin)

Keep in mind even just cooperating Demigods with Stunning abilities can bring about an enemy death factory... stacking abilities of the same type I would argue would just be a variation on this cooperative theme. Regulus is the extreme example to be sure, given his ability to tag an enemy with a marker that makes them visible (allowing the super-long-range crossbow shots to take them down from well beyond normal combat range... uggh!...). A potential trait/feature/hazard of playing maps with more than 3 Demigods per side.

Speaking of maps and # of players per side, I hope we see many more maps for fewer #s of players (1 to 3). The larger busier contests are quite fun, but sometimes the quieter adventures like Mine are appreciated.

Yeah 5 demigods no matter what will be able to destroy an enemy dg easily unless he is oak and self sheilds.

After 1 particular skill, a demigod should be imnune to it for x seconds. this will conter 5 consecutive snipe, multiple stun etc. Or like less damage or effect from the same skill under x seconds of time.

Yeah 5 demigods no matter what will be able to destroy an enemy dg easily unless he is oak and self sheilds.

Maybe I just dont't get it, but if 5 of the same demigod use a power all on 1 opponent or 5 different demigods focus their individual power on 1 opponent, either way that guy is screwed.

So maybe this post is colored by my experience. I almost exclusively play Regulus in Beta 2.

His snipe is just amazing, and you can use it from one lane to tag an enemy 2 lanes over on Leviathan, for example. On Prison a Regulus at center flag can trigger snipe on any DG visible outside their base. My point is that a team of five Regs don't have to stay together or in formation to kill anyone on the map. In fact it's better if they don't, since snipe gains power with distance.

A team of five Regs can still grab flags and farm grunts, they just have to reserve their mana for those lightning kills every time an enemy DG is visible. I kinda hoped other Demigods had similar abilities, but the truth is they really don't. I'd like to see diminishing returns enacted because it would keep the sniper viable as a build. The alternative, which I really don't want, is to nerf snipe.

It is definitely more difficult to concentrate fire with melee abilities.

At this point I don't see much point in worrying about the balance though - everyone knows the numbers will be changed.

Quoting Nights Edge,

reply 7

It is definitely more difficult to concentrate fire with melee abilities.

At this point I don't see much point in worrying about the balance though - everyone knows the numbers will be changed.

We need to report it if we want those numbers to change.

The problem is skills are pretty much fine on their own right now but combined their ridiculus. Another prob i see is that a team doesnt have to all use the same spell. 1 could use snipe another fireball, another hammer smash. I just dodnt know how they could fix this prob withoutmaking spells obsolete.

If anything i think 5 DG stacking the same abilities would be easier to counter, whereas 5 different DG's working together would be a lot harder to counter.

This all sounds interesting theoratically but I think we really need to try it out to see if its effective..and it might be.

Like I said, if its a problem, Just be immune to that skill for x seconds or if someone is stunned then make it immune for X seconds after. This will fix most of those problems.

SO no more stun stacking and no more 5 consecutive snipe.

Or let it be an item that do so...

Quoting DalzK,

reply 10

If anything i think 5 DG stacking the same abilities would be easier to counter, whereas 5 different DG's working together would be a lot harder to counter.

This is wrong. I can guarantee that you would rather face a diverse team of cordinated character classes over 5 regulus syncers.

Has anyone here played a skill based pvp game where you've experienced a situation similar to the 5 regulus sync skill stacking that kestrel is referring too? here is my 2cents

You have a skill based PvP game you will have spike teams.

I played guild wars for 3 years and did alot of PvP 8vs8 teams and I loved balanced pressure team builds but also played with vent spike teams and below is a perfect example very similar to our regulus snipe team example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKbav7Hl3jM

I wouldn't have a problem losing to 5 different DG that focus fire but getting hit with snipe 5 times in a row all at once I have issues with. You may think its the same but its not.

Having multiple of the same character or class is how a spike team thrives.

If team members all have different skill trees, strengths and weaknesses then I'll consider my loss as lacking maybe in teamwork, strategy, synergy AND Not just because I faced guys counting down in voicechat and all pressing a button.

Spike teams are overpowered and can be very hard to counter. Why? its the "ok this skill, this target, in 3..2..1" near instant death every 12-20 seconds.

How do you want to achieve balance? Do you want to limit a player's options when choosing what to play or do you want funky game mechanics?

Personally I would rather have a system that forces a team to be diverse and unique.

Solution 1: As Wagnard said, have a Demigod immune to the exact same ability for a few seconds after it has hit them.

Solution 2: Many more demigods to choose from, will give people more variety and less incentive to duplicate the same Demigod or even be able to enforce no duplicates if there are 20+ demigods.

I agree with Ke5trel and mcmjon: Spikes should not be an option. If a team of 5 different warlords kills you, then that it good teamwork mostly because it needs a good coordination to have one fireball, one snipe, one spit etc at various distances and at the right time. With Regulus specifically it's the snipe that's the problem, mostly because all of them can be doing their own thing and then snipe from wherever they are. It's all theoretical at the moment but once the netcode is fixed, we should arrange some games with this setup and see how really broken it might be (that's what we should be doing as beta testers anyway, abusing the system as much as possible).

The mines I don't think that's an issue, any more than 5 fireballs are an issue. It means that all Regulus' must stick together, Of course, with 5 Regulus' you can really setup death traps on Flags in no time. Simply 2 batches of mines from each means 30 mines on a flag and nobody will survive that. So that might be a problem instead.

Certainly though, this needs to be practically tested as theoretically it does sound nasty.

EDIT

Solution 2: Many more demigods to choose from, will give people more variety and less incentive to duplicate the same Demigod or even be able to enforce no duplicates if there are 20+ demigods.

That will not work. If people know a tactic is broken, they will select the same DGs to get the win.

Quoting mcmjon,

reply 12

Quoting DalzK, reply 10If anything i think 5 DG stacking the same abilities would be easier to counter, whereas 5 different DG's working together would be a lot harder to counter.
This is wrong. I can guarantee that you would rather face a diverse team of cordinated character classes over 5 regulus syncers.

Has anyone here played a skill based pvp game where you've experienced a situation similar to the 5 regulus sync skill stacking that kestrel is referring too? here is my 2cents

You have a skill based PvP game you will have spike teams.

I played guild wars for 3 years and did alot of PvP 8vs8 teams and I loved balanced pressure team builds but also played with vent spike teams and below is a perfect example very similar to our regulus snipe team example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKbav7Hl3jM

I wouldn't have a problem losing to 5 different DG that focus fire but getting hit with snipe 5 times in a row all at once I have issues with. You may think its the same but its not.

Having multiple of the same character or class is how a spike team thrives.

If team members all have different skill trees, strengths and weaknesses then I'll consider my loss as lacking maybe in teamwork, strategy, synergy AND Not just because I faced guys counting down in voicechat and all pressing a button.

Spike teams are overpowered and can be very hard to counter. Why? its the "ok this skill, this target, in 3..2..1" near instant death every 12-20 seconds.

How do you want to achieve balance? Do you want to limit a player's options when choosing what to play or do you want funky game mechanics?

Personally I would rather have a system that forces a team to be diverse and unique.

Well the answer to your question asking if you have ever played anyone who has played agaisnt 5 syncing regulus's is obviously no, and im sure that is everyones answer as well, so until we get a chance to try it out this is all just theory, which like i said before, can actually not be as effective practically.

But yea I played gw pvp and I remember the IWAY build, where people would basically "stack warriors". This was actually really really effective as even the most random uncoordinated teams could still win matches like this. However, once an IWAY team was faced with one of the more skilled "anti-IWAY" teams there was no chance for them. The only problem with countering it however was that you never knew which team you were going to be put up agaisnt. In Demigod though you will know when someone is going for a 5 regulus build and since the other team knows this, they can all prepare to effectively to counter them as they know whats coming, and the 5 regulus build team will have to prepare to counter 5 unique Demigods. Of course though we have no idea how to counter this regulus build as we havent even played agaisnt it...but I assure there will be a counter..there always is

Of course though we have no idea how to counter this regulus build as we havent even played agaisnt it...but I assure there will be a counter..there always is

I'll add a caveat - if no counter is found then the offending ability is nerfed or the mechanics altered.

I'd rather snipe stay the way it is and we see Wagnard's immunity or diminishing returns enacted, or unique DGs per team, since that would close this type of loophole for most abilities, not just the ones we come up with from our armchairs.

If we don't get unique or semi-unique DGs per team, however, this will come up again. I remember reading a post on Oak way back when that asked what would happen when 5 Oaks had Last Stand:

They rush en masse past towers to your citadel, do as much damage as possible before dying, and then after death do even more damage...how many times would they have to do that before winning? Two or three at most? How do you counter that at level 5?

Well if they kept suiciding at you..5 of them, you would get a lot of gold which then would allow you to purchase health upgrades on your citadel and offensive items to kill the oaks before they reached the citadel. Also if they strat was to just rush at your citadel if you waited for them higher up the map and took them out early then they would get completey destroyed. Again however, completely theoretical...and ill be honest, I havent played enough Beta 2 to say much...so it might not work, but im sure more experienced players would find an effective counter

But i still agree with you on the idea of nerfing very un-unique demigod based teams with strats that require little but are hard to counter..

I say limit the duplicity of the Demigods for teams, if I am in ateam of five and I choose Regulus then no one else in my team can choose him, it seems to make sense like this.

I don't think the problem is necessarily that there are too many of the same hero just that there are too many of the same spell. The solution is simple, diminishing returns. I think if characters have invincibility for seconds then it makes it awkward to cast or count to two to cast or try to cast but can't because they are invincible. Just make the diminishing returns last for like 1/2 of the spells cooldown and there won't be such a problem. THis way people can still play similar characters but if they do they are encouraged to go with different builds so they can maximize damage.

Yea I like your idea sliperrysnake but if they forced teams to be more diverse i think that would be even better...especially to all you people complaining about having only 8 demigods and boring match ups....

YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!

Going through old posts and I'm wondering - Is this still an issue? What do you think?

Not sure. I haven't really seen it happening, but maybe it just hasn't been fully explored.

I'd like to see 5 Sednas take the field. Do all their auras stack? Stacked healing aura and stacked cooldown reduction? Chained interrupts? At the very least it might be fun.

Quoting Ke5trel,

reply 21

Going through old posts and I'm wondering - Is this still an issue? What do you think?

5 regs can be deadly since the 990 dmg snipe is at lvl 10 it will be diffcult for someone to escape, but we have never seen and 5v5 to talk about.

Mines are deadly at first lvls but after mid game they dont be soog good since health of players is just huge

stunning is annoying especially telestunning sometimes it can be uncounterabled=imba? This could solve if u couldnt use skills for 2 s after teleport

i want to see at tournaments

Make 'each team may have only one of each DG' mandatory in tournament leagues where teams are organized. Limiting it to two each per team might be a more flexible approach in this vein

and at normal games to be able only to have 2 same demigods at each team

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[Gameplay/Balance] Stacking Demigods