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Don't let Demigod forums degenerate into intellectual inbreeding.

By on December 17, 2008 3:15:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The DoTA community is one that I quite despise.  It came to be like that partly as self defense against leavers and other poor etiquette players.  However, elitism was also a very strong factor.  Because of this, I kept my distance from it when I could.

I see the pattern repeat all the time.  Members of the community who are more active, or post long guides that later become sticked often become self-appointed kings of the forums and behave as though their words bear more weight than others.  Mob mentality often also appears, with groups chastizing those individuals who would dare think differently or criticise the status quo.  

These actions do not lead to an open community but one that has effectively cordoned itself off from outsiders or even outside thought.  The result is intellectual inbreeding.  The truth is, you need both fanboys and dissenters.  You need followers and contrarions.  But above all, you need to have respect for each other's viewpoints even when different from yours.  It's fine to debate, but attempting to make people look foolish for having different opinions is not.

And unfortunately, I'm seeing this trend creep over to these forums.  Slowly, subtetly, but it's there.

My big hope with this forum is that it doesn't degenerate into one that is like DoTA.  I believe most people would agree with this.

To make sure I'm clear, I'm not trying to criticize anyone with this.  Just let it be a forewarning, since one of the objectives of Demigod was to have an open and respectful community.

0 Karma | 26 Replies
December 17, 2008 3:45:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The truth is, you need both fanboys and dissenters. You need followers and contrarions. But above all, you respect for each other's viewpoints even when different from yours. It's fine to debate, but attempting to make people look foolish for having different opinions is not.

These are good words to live by. 

Having said that...

 You too will be assimilated - Resistance is futile.   

 

December 17, 2008 4:25:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I disagree that it's happening here. The older forum members that I've spoken to have been helpful and polite, and I've only been on here since last thursday.

December 17, 2008 4:27:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

JinxOfSin, from here (reply #31).

you don't like it because you're bad at it.

Yes, I can see how this might be a flaw.  The worst player should be the one that destroys all opposition.  Or maybe it should simply be random.  Who cares if that player spent time and energy to get good at a game.  God forbit he actually beat you.

And this is why you actually hate dota.  I sense a little bitterness here.  Well, 'little' may have been an understatement.

Now, to be fair, the good points you made in the thread outnumber these fairly personal attacks. #1 and #3 actually have cogent reasoning following them, too. On the other hand, if you're going to make a thread by this, you'd better be willing to live by it--someone else being wrong doesn't give you the right to disrespect not only their viewpoint, but also them.

December 17, 2008 4:45:37 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Oh snap... brb popcorn. Cause it's ON!

 

December 17, 2008 5:24:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
Oh snap... brb popcorn. Cause it's ON!

 

I don't think it's "on", Legerdemain is right - I should have been more cordial, or at the very least, less hostile.  Still, it's much easier to do so when all parties show mutual respect from the get-go. 

December 17, 2008 5:34:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting JinxOfSin,

I don't think it's "on", Legerdemain is right - I should have been more cordial, or at the very least, less hostile.  Still, it's much easier to do so when all parties show mutual respect from the get-go. 

Glad to see you want an inviting tone and you see the error in some of your past posts.  I want this to be friendly and fun for everyone and I promise to be my best not to be a dick to people.  I know a time or two I have had to resist the urge, but for the most part, I think I am very understanding to everyone.  If there is anyone I have been hard on it is you and a few others who I feel have been a bit too much, "if it isn't DOTA, it isn't good".  I try my best to be reasonable and completely agree, we should work together to improve this game.  That is all I have ever wanted.

By this message, I take it you will be joining us for beta 2 on Thursday?  If so, I look forward to playing with you.  Look for me, I'll be there all day Thursday and Friday.

December 17, 2008 5:53:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums


The DoTA community is one that I quite despise.  It came to be like that partly as self defense against leavers and other poor etiquette players.  However, elitism was also a very strong factor.  Because of this, I kept my distance from it when I could.

I see the pattern repeat all the time.  Members of the community who are more active, or post long guides that later become sticked often become self-appointed kings of the forums and behave as though their words bear more weight than others.  Mob mentality often also appears, with groups chastizing those individuals who would dare think differently or criticise the status quo.  

These actions do not lead to an open community but one that has effectively cordoned itself off from outsiders or even outside thought.  The result is intellectual inbreeding.  The truth is, you need both fanboys and dissenters.  You need followers and contrarions.  But above all, you need to have respect for each other's viewpoints even when different from yours.  It's fine to debate, but attempting to make people look foolish for having different opinions is not.

And unfortunately, I'm seeing this trend creep over to these forums.  Slowly, subtetly, but it's there.

My big hope with this forum is that it doesn't degenerate into one that is like DoTA.  I believe most people would agree with this.

To make sure I'm clear, I'm not trying to criticize anyone with this.  Just let it be a forewarning, since one of the objectives of Demigod was to have an open and respectful community.

 

Hello, you must be new to the internet.

December 17, 2008 6:12:34 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Yeah I agree with what you are trying to do Jinx and i hope it will work out.  I know we all disagree on something but we can agree that we all want this game to be the best it can be.  Anyways don't take anything on here said personal as sigol says it is an internet forum. 

December 17, 2008 6:47:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I have tried I believe to keep all of my posts civil.  I have edited out one or two of my comments in old posts that I felt were unnecessary because I was pissed off when people made impersonal generalizations.  So far this community is generally respectful unlike the WC3 Dota community.  I think the arguements will die down for a bit after Beta 2.  After that, there will be far more heated arguements than what we have seen.  I just hope people will use specific evidence to back up their opinions instead of the generalized crap that has been spewed across the forums so far. 

December 17, 2008 6:48:37 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

   The Stardock Community is not the Blizzard BBS. I've deeply enjoyed these forums for the level of insight and clarity of ideas, mixed with various points of view, and large amount of thought that goes into each and every post. For the past couple of weeks, we've seen more and more mentions of DotA - more so than the previous builds. I'm reminded of how the forum was before the release of Beta 1, when many players had no real idea on how the game played - but felt they had a lot they wanted to say. We all come upon a new game and hope it is the jewel we've been wanting in our guts for the longest time, and no doubt it's very hard to keep all of those feelings and desired bottled up for long.

   Jinx, your comments are appreciated and welcome. I for one feel that perhaps the tone in which you take in them is more forceful than we'd enjoy. Insights about your DotA experience are priceless indeed, and we look forward to see how discussions build as the next phase of beta takes root. At the moment there is a feeling that although your intentions are well, that perhaps they also may be premature. Many posters here have done well to keep saying that "Demigod is not DotA", along with a great number of points that have risen in the past week. Most of us are patiently waiting to see how things have changed and developed over the past month and a half.

   Conversations about game mechanics at this time are too ill informed and one sided. The community reacts better when you provide insight based on what you've done in the game, and you use ingame examples, and elements of clear detail to suggest where there can be some improving. But without this, all of these new threads are merely broods of text that have been written once before, just now rematerialized four or fix months later.

   I insist that people try to be more patient, keep discussions of this matter limited to Impulse's IRC Demigod channel. The end of the week is coming, we're all excited, and the closer it get the more we just feel as though we are fit to burst. Even I was like that, I tend to vent my emotions into Guide Writing, that is because I can, and I know not everyone has played the game. So perhaps what would be a vastly helpful thing that a person of your experience can do, is instead of saying "You obviouslly haven't played DotA" in every other post - consider making a complete catalogue of everything you know from DotA. Provide screenshots and examples, clear obsevations of what make things work in that game and how.

   Don't mention how it can relate to Demigod or not, just make a DotA-Dictionary as it were and feed the community knowledge that may help in your arguments, and also may benefit the developers as well. That is the most constructive thing I can think of, and I feel we could really use that kind of first-hand resource here on the forums.

  Stardock Community is a constructive one, always has been. To be a part of it, you too must learn to be constructive.

December 17, 2008 6:53:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

  I personally say sry if I offended anyone its just sometimes I get worked up about things and the fact that I stilllllllllllllllllllllllll dodn't have the beta. only 1 more day though but I am not one of patience.

 

edit after reading Orleans post i agree I played Dota for abit and others havn't so if u could provide info about the ups and downs of Dota I think it might help alot. Also I beleive their are no "forum kings". Afurthermore people are just worked up because beta2 was delayed alot.

December 17, 2008 8:20:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Stilbine,
The older forum members that I've spoken to have been helpful and polite, and I've only been on here since last thursday.

"I'm only thirty-seven ... I'm not old."

Gosh, it's been three months now and I haven't used that line until now...

 

+1 Karma for the first to correctly state where that quote is from.

December 17, 2008 8:57:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Wahngrok,

Quoting Stilbine, reply 2The older forum members that I've spoken to have been helpful and polite, and I've only been on here since last thursday.

"I'm only thirty-seven ... I'm not old."

Gosh, it's been three months now and I haven't used that line until now...

 

+1 Karma for the first to correctly state where that quote is from.

 

Monty Python and the holy grail.  Scene with arthur and dennis

December 17, 2008 9:25:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It seems to me like the community just wants this game to be the best it can be. Sometimes semi-personal attacks are made, but all in the attempt to show each other what kind of point we're making.

And I'm glad we have a good base of wise, informative, and mature people to test this game.

December 17, 2008 10:09:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

yes fire and ice said it right we all try to be polite and constructive sometimes we just get frustrated trying to explain our point or answering a question for the millionth time and other things.

December 17, 2008 10:36:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting JinxOfSin,

I don't think it's "on", Legerdemain is right - I should have been more cordial, or at the very least, less hostile.  Still, it's much easier to do so when all parties show mutual respect from the get-go. 


Very well played! I now throw my support behind this post, for whatever that's worth.

December 18, 2008 12:08:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

None of our forums ever end up being particularly nasty. I think part of that is because people know the developers participate in them. Another reason is that we ban people who are disruptive when we come across it.

December 18, 2008 7:41:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I am a member of the "DotA Community" that people have come to malign.  In fact, it's not the "DotA Community" that you hate, but the Pub Stars who come in, make thousands of posts, have relatively little game experience, and talk like the own the joint.

 

I'm quite the opposite.  I play DotA regularly, on one of the upper levels of competitive play - just short of traveling anywhere to play in a LAN Tournament - and you'd never know it by the way I present myself.  I get down and dirty with the taunts, personal insults, etc. but this is the internet.  You are almost always going to be dealing with the lowest common denominator here, might as well have fun doing it.  There's no reason to be a tightass about people taunting in a video game - it happens in all forms of competition.

 

As for you talking about intellectual inbreeding - that's just fallacy.  There's a reason that people who post guides, post a lot, and present cogent opinions get to be "forum kings".  People who spend more time studying a game are just going to be better at it.  People who spend more time playing a game are going to be better at it, people who collect and compile information outside of the game environment are going to be better at it.  These people are forum kings because they work to be that way.  There's a huge difference in the guy who knows what he's doing and the Pub Star though - and being able to tell the difference is key.  Most people on the DotA forums cannot do this because it is such an enormous "community" - though I'd be surprised if I know 2% of actual DotA players.  Don't discount the opinions of the veterans, in fact, they should carry enormous weight.  I'm new to the game, just getting a few games of Beta 1 in and now participating in Beta 2.  The first place I came was the forums to read information on the heros and whatnot.

 

I don't expect to see a lot of guides for this game - it's not as structured as DotA yet, the item system is more simplistic and obvious at the moment, and there isn't as much "committment" to your skill order.  The more level and skill choices you have the more leeway the player has.  Obviously, there are going to be some skill builds that are better - but the very pace of the game makes it less important.

 

On the forums it definitely pays to be direct, cogent, and cordial.  People tend to actuall read your posts if you format them correctly, use punctuation and approriate grammar, and don't attack them.  It's both easier to read and makes your opinion carry more merit simply because you presented it in a more digestible fashion. 

 

Hope to see you all in a game - where I will be much less nice, I'm sure! 

December 18, 2008 8:08:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hmmm...people really love to compare this game to DotA
Anyway the developers have said loads of times that they are not making this like DotA...they were just inspired by it at the start.

December 18, 2008 11:24:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting DalzK,
Hmmm...people really love to compare this game to DotA
Anyway the developers have said loads of times that they are not making this like DotA...they were just inspired by it at the start.

 

No offence intended here, but the developers can do EVERYTHING under the sun to escape DotA comparisons and they are going to fail.  This game is DotA.  It has the same setup, a similar control scheme, everything.  DotA was a ripoff (the most successful) of AotS maps from the Starcraft era of mapping.  This game is an AotS map, plain and simple.  Yes, it is more complex and has much more to offer graphically.  However, the fact is that they capitalized on something that independent minds had done on another engine.

 

They can claim until the cows come home that they are "not making this like DotA", but it plays just like DotA/AotS and it always will.  I'm guessing that close to 40% of the playerbase for Demigod is coming from DotA or similar games.

December 18, 2008 11:27:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Which is why they should learn from the fallacies and the good points of DotA. Building upon a concept means you have to recognize what it is you're building on.

December 18, 2008 11:42:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Dota is a type of game and this game is not like dota it is more like other games of the same style. This game is team based the grunts actually play a part in late game, u can't get all the upgrades, theirs flags, and generals arn't like dota at all. U people keep on saying its like dota but dota is like alot of other games. So plz stop saying DG is demigod when theirs alot of differnces and Dota is a type of game like rts. Also Dota has tons of heroes DG has 8. In DG multiple people can play same demigod and. So u can say its inspired by Dota but GpG has taken an aots game to the next level and add emphasis on teamwork and sharing money and no last hitting.

 

edit: this is not what this post was meant for so i suggest if u wish to continue this conversation later go to the dota demigod topic.

December 19, 2008 12:03:52 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Soccer194,
Dota is a type of game and this game is not like dota it is more like other games of the same style. This game is team based the grunts actually play a part in late game, u can't get all the upgrades, theirs flags, and generals arn't like dota at all. U people keep on saying its like dota but dota is like alot of other games. So plz stop saying DG is demigod when theirs alot of differnces and Dota is a type of game like rts. Also Dota has tons of heroes DG has 8. In DG multiple people can play same demigod and. So u can say its inspired by Dota but GpG has taken an aots game to the next level and add emphasis on teamwork and sharing money and no last hitting.

 

edit: this is not what this post was meant for so i suggest if u wish to continue this conversation later go to the dota demigod topic.

 

I specifically said that DotA is based on AotS.  This game is an AotS style map.  DotA is NOT an RTS, nor is this.  DotA just happens to use an RTS engine (Warcraft 3) to execute the gameplay module.  Comparing games based on the number of heroes and effectiveness of grunts is just ludicrous.  DotA is team based as well - and you only get all of the "upgrade", by which I think you mean skills/abilities, in DotA is because of limitations of the War3 engine and the premise that the game was envisioned that way.  The fact that it is a hero based, isometric view, controlpoint/lane driven, grunt/NPC/troop spawning game pretty much immediately puts it in the same league as DotA.

 

I don't understand the Demigod community's desire to remove itself from DotA.  As the post above said - it's perfectly acceptable to learn from the high and low points of DotA and build a game around that.  No one else has done it.  I'd love to see an ENGINE (such as Demigod's) which is built for AotS style gameplay that is much more open and easier to interface with that DotA.  My current issues with the game are many - but it's a freaking Beta.  The fact that it works near flawlessly on my computer is a good sign.  I really wish I understood why when this game is compare to DotA people rage out and flail uselessly about how this game is NOTHING like DotA and it never will be.

December 19, 2008 12:23:20 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting kithoo,

As for you talking about intellectual inbreeding - that's just fallacy.  There's a reason that people who post guides, post a lot, and present cogent opinions get to be "forum kings".  People who spend more time studying a game are just going to be better at it.  People who spend more time playing a game are going to be better at it, people who collect and compile information outside of the game environment are going to be better at it.  These people are forum kings because they work to be that way.  There's a huge difference in the guy who knows what he's doing and the Pub Star though - and being able to tell the difference is key.  Most people on the DotA forums cannot do this because it is such an enormous "community" - though I'd be surprised if I know 2% of actual DotA players.  Don't discount the opinions of the veterans, in fact, they should carry enormous weight.  I'm new to the game, just getting a few games of Beta 1 in and now participating in Beta 2.  The first place I came was the forums to read information on the heros and whatnot.
 

You don't quite understand what intellectual inbreeding is.  Intellectual inbreeding is what happens when everyone has the exact same views and opinions and shun anything differently.  

Also, regarding the "forum kings", you again misunderstood what I meant.  It's one thing to be informative (which is a fantastic thing!), but it's another to behave like you own the place and speak on behalf of everyone else.  It's when you start making ambassador-like statements such as "the community  disagrees with this statement" or "the community does not like your tone".  And yes, I was a part of the community years ago as well, back when dota-allstars was merely a forum and a link to the latest map.

December 19, 2008 12:48:19 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting JinxOfSin,

Quoting kithoo, reply 18
As for you talking about intellectual inbreeding - that's just fallacy.  There's a reason that people who post guides, post a lot, and present cogent opinions get to be "forum kings".  People who spend more time studying a game are just going to be better at it.  People who spend more time playing a game are going to be better at it, people who collect and compile information outside of the game environment are going to be better at it.  These people are forum kings because they work to be that way.  There's a huge difference in the guy who knows what he's doing and the Pub Star though - and being able to tell the difference is key.  Most people on the DotA forums cannot do this because it is such an enormous "community" - though I'd be surprised if I know 2% of actual DotA players.  Don't discount the opinions of the veterans, in fact, they should carry enormous weight.  I'm new to the game, just getting a few games of Beta 1 in and now participating in Beta 2.  The first place I came was the forums to read information on the heros and whatnot.
 
You don't quite understand what intellectual inbreeding is.  Intellectual inbreeding is what happens when everyone has the exact same views and opinions and shun anything differently.  

Also, regarding the "forum kings", you again misunderstood what I meant.  It's one thing to be informative (which is a fantastic thing!), but it's another to behave like you own the place and speak on behalf of everyone else.  It's when you start making ambassador-like statements such as "the community  disagrees with this statement" or "the community does not like your tone".  And yes, I was a part of the community years ago as well, back when dota-allstars was merely a forum and a link to the latest map.

 

Sorry - I mistook you.  I agree with what you're saying then.  There's no reason for people to all think the same thing and play the same way.  Currently, I honestly feel people are trying a) too hard to distance from DotA, not talking about the game's low points, and c) doing a lot of handshaking and gladhanding about it.  Yes, it's a beta, and I get that - which means it's time to talk about the lows, not the highs.  I agree with you completely Jinx - sorry about the misunderstanding.

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