Terramis' Feedback Thread

By Terramis on November 9, 2008 3:52:04 AM from

Hello all,

Not usualy much of a forum user but thought I would put down some feedback thoughts on the beta here. As the title indicates, this is simply an attempt to transfer my opinion to the devs, however feel free to add your own thoughts as responses here.

First off, I have realy been enjoying Demigod thus far, I see it as good departure from the norm for RTS games. Having spent a good deal of time in various recent RTS' it is nice to dive into a world that isn't totaly cliche already, ie: elves and goblins or marines and aliens. I'll spend the majority of this post talking more about the things I would do differently since those will probably provide the most insight, however, suffice it to say I am pleased with the direction Demigod is headed, especially in the art department.

Starting with the art then, having sung my praise of the art team here, which has obviously been working hard at providing an excellent visual treat for us, I think we're all looking forward to more additions here. My 'most-wanted' suggestion in this area is a much larger degree of variance between the individual grunts. Take for example a group of running minotaurs...not only do they all use the exact same run animation, but they all run it in exact pace with eachother, making them look totaly unnatural. I would like to see different weapons in thier hands, perhaps some variance in thier size and/or armor as well. The flying units are another example; they all flap thier wings at exactly the same time in exactly the same way, I can see not wanting to make 5 different wing animations, but do consider having them playing at different intervals on spawn, providing a lot more realism for a little bit of code. Again, small differences in thier weapons, armor, and size would be wonderful to see.

Secondary to this I must agree with an idea I read in several previous posts, the demigods do need two different texture sets for each, one for Light and one for Dark.

Speaking in terms of demigods now, I'd also like to suggest multiple death animations for each demigod as a great idea. If you really wanted to be cool about it, then the approach of having interactive animation between units on death is an excellent tool. For instance if a Torchbearer kills a Rook, than the Rook's death animation would be different than if it had been killed by an Unclean Beast. Quick example would be if the Rook dies by Beast, than it melts into a stony puddle of goo, if it dies by Torchbearer then it explodes in a flash, leaving a couple small chunks of debris. Just a thought. The Dawn of War games used this concept to a small degree and it was highly effective at making the 'epic clash of bosses' seem much more grand.

The archer demigod, Regulus?, is my least favorite so far for various reasons but mainly because he seems to fit into the gameworld less than the others. He's much more modern looking. With glasses and a gun-like crossbow, he seems more fit for a futuristic world than the Demigod universe. Conceptualy I think he's a good idea, except for the mines, which I see as being far less useful than any other demigod power in that they are avoidable. There is not one other power that the oppenent has the option of Not getting hit by. Not to mention they seem to be in opposition to that demigod's status as an Assassin. Give the mines to a general perhaps, but they seem particularly out of place regardless, and again, a bit too modern for the premise all the others seem to be working from.

I think 8 demigods at launch can be enough to suffice despite the calls for more, as long as your working on more as soon as the game launches. I do, however, think the skill trees need to be larger/longer. In almost every match I've played...by the end, my demigod is maxed out on skills, thus making the items the only difference between two demigods of the same type. I love the concept of demigods of the same type being totally different...and this holds true in the begining of the game into the middle...but in the endgame the differences are much smaller and primarily determined by the item choices. I would like to to see a couple more skills each and a few more brackets for the existing skills....extending the concept well into the endgame.

Having not been able to test the Generals yet, I've got no feedback on them, but I'll add to this post as I have more thoughts and especially when we get the other demigods in. Thanks for reading and hope to hear any opinions on these or other ideas in an effort to improve what already looks like a great game.

Terramis

0 Karma | 21 Replies

One of the most depressing facets of the internet is that people don't generally read posts this long. It probably says something about human civilization in general. Some responses:

I cannot agree more that light/dark demigods need to be more easily distinguishable. I understand there are color circles beneath them, but with the creeps I don't even have to glance to wonder, why should I with the demigods? How hard could it possibly be to darken some textures? I really hope this is addressed before release, because I feel it would be pretty unforgiveablely lazy. And you know, I'm a huge stardock fan, they can look at the games I've purchased/pre-ordered to know that (and Elemental will soon be amongst them), but at some point you have to realize that Blizzard is the #1 PC gaming company because of polish above all else. With a mere 8 demigods, where you are forced to see 2 of the same demigod in a 5v5, not having barely noticeably different skins is basically an unforgiveable sin. Honestly, I'm a little offended that on the largest map-size you are forced to have multiple of the same demi-god, because having unique demi-gods per player in a multiplayer game was a huge selling point of DoTA.

While multiple death animations per demigod sounds awesome, it is so far away from more important priorities such as "more demigods, more items, more skins" that it is barely worth mentioning. If you can't even play a 5v5 without multiple repeat demigods you are venturing into the realm of unplayability. Companies have to prioritize, and the priority right now needs to be on more (and extremely unique) Demigods. I'm not even suggesting to ask for the 60ish heroes DoTA has here. So many of them are so functionally similiar that it isn't worth mentioning. But still, I feel GPG/SD has kind of chosen the easy way out on this, as each Demigod needs at least 2 more unique abilities to truly create the number of unique combos they are saying can come out of a demigod. Yea, they might have a few more choices than a DoTA hero, but it clearly needs to be more if the number of demigods is going to be so few. I'd love to see all of the existing demis with 2 more skill trees if the number of Demigods is going to be so clearly limited.

I am nothing but a well-wisher for this game. I haven't been afraid to speak with money. But as far as the heroes are concerned, you simply cannot marginally expand on the demigods to compensate for the fact that there is something like.... 50+ less of them. Well, you can't do that and expect your game to have any significant replay value. DoTA derives its replay value from its vast number of heroes and possible hero combinations. Even now in Demigod, there are what, 2-3 viable builds for any given Demigod? Even if you are generous and call it 3, you have..... 24 plausible builds. Of course items compound this somewhat, but someone will always find a min/max for the items. The true test to the development staff is to create enough viable builds WITHOUT ITEMS that tempt a player to make this game viable, as the items are generally the game breaking stuff discovered only by the most hardcore of the hardcore.

After reading my post, I realize that it comes off as a bit harsh. On the other hand, I really, really want to see this game succeed. But you can't simply say that you have "So many more options than DotA for hero development" when basically all that comes down to is 3 more skills, and out of the 6, they aren't particularly well balanced. I always hope that game designers understand (unless they are running a D&D campaign, but certainly on the internet) that sometimes less is more. But less of the right thing and more of the wrong thing leads down a road to certain disaster. Balance must be your watchword, because as the game is now, it just feels like DotA with more choices for idiots that don't min/max to take.

I wish you all the best of luck.

Edit: And just because you are choosing to a follow a different path from DotA, I am not impugning you. Rather I am attempting to indicate that you cannot replace the choice of 40+ viable heroes with 8, when those 8 don't even have 40+ viable builds combined together. I realize you don't have the resources of Blizzard. But to admit defeat to a mod community of another game..... I'll just say that is intolerable to me. Even DotA has at least 2 competitive, viable build for most of their classes, and they are for more restricted than you, forced to labor under the confines of other men's work. If they can do something better for free than GPG/SD can do for money, I will have truly lost all faith in mankind.

But yet, I do have faith that you can still make this happen. By February? Maybe not. But sometimes the best decision is the one that leaves your company with a good name. Ask Blizzard, it seems to have worked out for them.

You do off course know that most of the DOTA heroes are really similar? I'm with you with the need of more skills though.

However I congratulate GPG(Remeber kids, they make, not stardock;-)) for already differentiating the Demi's with so few skills.

Hello again all,

Had a couple more thoughts that I thought I'd share here while they were fresh on my mind.

First is about the level designs. From what is in game and what I've seen in the screens etc., it seems that all of the levels are completely 'level', or 'flat'. It didn't really occur to me at first, but after noticing it, I think it's very boring. Having some variation in the height of the maps, even so little as some ramps to a raised center area, would make the levels a bit more dynamic. Not to mention an opportunity to have slightly increased range of units on higher ground, adding strategic value to areas of the map other than just the flags. Obviously we wouldn't want to go so far as muli-layer overlapping maps, but some raised areas, perhaps even the flag points themselves, is an idea that I don't think should be overlooked.

The second idea, is a bit more extreme, and would be far harder to do....but I think it's worth mentioning. First a preface of how I got there. While playing on the lava/mines map, I was using the 'warpstone' item to jump from the backside of my main base to the artifact store/ flag point in the center area. It was a good way to get there without having to walk all the way around the map and back to get to something that is actually very close to where I was. Then I thought, well....if that adds a bit of strategy...what would it be like if there was...say, a 'Bridge' item....that allowed me to place an actual physical bridge between the two landmasses, this would do a few things speaking in terms of gameplay. First, it would obviously allow me to reach these areas quickly without having to waste my warpstone use timer....further, it would allow my AI grunts to then use this path to also get around the map differently than the single corridor out of the main base. This could be a good or bad thing, in that having all my units taking the same path makes for a stronger fighting force obviously, but having a rouge group of units attacking from the backside could have it's own strategic value in some cases. Secondarily, this choice of building the bridge (which I would imagine could be attacked like any other structure) would allow my enemy to cross directly into my main base without funneling into the highly defended corridor it would otherwise use....so using it could also have it's own strategic drawbacks etc.

Then...it occured to me, that if that were a viable option as far as items, how much cooler would it be to have a specific type of demigod, whose abilities were based on 'building structures' like this. Lets refer to him as the 'Architect' for now. An Architect demigod would accent both the general type demigods and the assassins in being able to construct various structures such as walls, towers, the afformentioned bridges, and perhaps even forward item stores etc. There are many possible building types that could be used here, and I would suggest some unique types that are not already in the map by default. This would allow a new level of team building options, where the strategic value of a good architect could possibly balance the loss of damge dealing etc from not having another assassin. The general would probably work extremely well with the architect in that he could immediately direct his minions to use the new bridges to gain access to the enemy flanks and such. Currently I'm at a loss to come up with any significant 'disadvantages' from this...it seems to balance itself in most respects, as I mentioned, the bridges could help your enemy as much as yourself, the bonus of having more defences is balanced by the loss of having a full damage dealing assassin demigod, and the strategic value of the maps and teams working well together ramps up very quickly with this added in.

Anyway....yes I know, another long post. But hey...I thought some context might help convey the idea better. Besides, we're all just waiting for the next beta anyway. So chew on this one for a while and let the devs know what you think. Personaly I like it (obviously) but pick it apart and see whats left. Until next time....

Terramis

I agree with almost everything here as I love playing Dota. However, you have to remember your speaking in generalties. Sure Dota has 90+ heroes but as stated many of them have similar skills with only slight variations. Also, in competitve play how many of those 90+ heroes are actually viable. What GPG seems to be trying is to make every character a viable choice in competitive play. Unlike Dota which has a total of maybe 20 top tier picks out of the 90 created heroes, GPG seems to take the approach that every hero should have a place in the competitive seen. If however, this plan does not pan out and some heroes are found to be weaker and then useless picks on the competitive scene then Demigod will have to adapt. GPG as I see it has two choices, either balance every character so they are useful in competitive play, or start mass producing characters so people don't get tired of the game. Regardless at launch, I would like to see 15-20 heroes created. Finally, in Dota people can not take the same hero as someone else. In Demigod, players can. Although I haven't decided if this is a positive aspect of the game, it does make it unneccessary for similar hero remakes.

On a different note, the maps so far are too linear. Maps need to be created to serve the playstyle of the game. Currently, there seems to be no real way to get around to someone's back without being detected. Furthermore, there is no where to hide, there is no juking, there is no alternate way to gain experience except through laning. Newer maps need to take in to account that the game is based on both player skill in team fights and map awareness. Right now, it is far too obvious when ganks are coming, where enemies are located, player position on the map, etc. I am hoping that some of the newer maps take into account that although the concept of Demigod forces teams to fight head to head, the game itself should involve alternatives in attacking other than running straight at another Demigod. Currently in the two beta maps, this is the only way the game is played, which takes away a huge aspect of the gameplay.

Well...after reading these responses, I can't help but notice that every response is talking about DoTA. After looking through the previous posts in the forum I've also noticed this is a running theme here. I think about now...the dev team is wishing they'd never said anything about DoTA. This game is an obvious and rather large departure from DoTA and I'm not sure why everyone here is so stuck on talking about it. I didn't mention DoTA in the posts, and this is prolly the last I'll mention it....but seriously....erm, enough? There's about ooohhh, I dunno, at least 50 other RTS games you could make useful comparisons to. I think it's obvious the devs attracted many DoTA players here which I guess is good...however I think this idea of Demigod being a DoTA clone is a bit overstated at this point. Just a thought....

Terramis

Quoting Heartsbane00,

reply 5

GPG as I see it has two choices, either balance every character so they are useful in competitive play, or start mass producing characters so people don't get tired of the game.

I hope they take the former. I think they are lots of different games, but when it come to competitive onluine gaming, fewer, more polished units are always the way to go. I liken this to TF2 of Aacion-RPG/RTS; 8 players with different ways to play, great online game. No one is saying valve needs to make 60+ unit types.

u do realize its about $10,000 per character right? DotA was able to mass up to 93 of them because they didnt have to pay to make them, and the sound, models, abilities, and gameplay was there already. (gameplay in terms of stat boosts, items, income, the basic RTS stuff) They didnt have to put effort into the back end of the game as much as a real company does. GPG is pretty much making few good ones because of $ constraints

Quoting Reaver,

reply 8

Honestly, I think it is more gameplay than financially releated. Again look at my example of TF2. Valve in general focused on good gameplay. Valve has a ton of money and steam allows cheaper distribution for more profit. Why do people like their games? Why is TF2 and L4D higher rated than spore, because the focus was quality, not quantity.

Also, $10,000 is way low. I don't buy reports of $100,000 floating around here, but they are putting a lot of man hours into art and efects for the characters.

actually it might be 100,000. Scathis once told me, but I doubt I can find it now, its been so long

Well they did say they were making downloadable content for another year after release. Also yah all The demigods are totally unique and have alot of effort into them. They also have their own backstory. Just a quick question. Who is this http://www.gamespot.com/pages/image_viewer/frame_lead.php?pid=944424&img=4&popup=1 the guy on the right. Also yah it does cost alot of money to make them. I wasn't a big fan of Dota but i did like Tides of blood which is like Dota and it only had 16 characters and some had similar moves. It still was a great game.

My only response to you Terramis is have you ever played Dota, and if you have was it more than once. Demigod has so many similarites to that game that even the end goal is the same, destroying the opponents stronghold. Its the same exact concept. Creeps are released in waves. You have hero that is used to support your creeps and push them into the enemy base. As someone else said, Demigod is also like Tides of Blood. To me its the same thing. Also, stating that the game isn't exactly like Dota doesn't change the fact that it really is. Sure the graphics are overhauled, and they are adding new content, which should be done because why would anyone want to pay for a clone of a free mod. The fact of the matter is if this game is going to succeed is has to become more than Dota, which is why so many people make comparisons. If Demigod can't out do a free mod based on a engine from 2002, then I will consider my money ill spent. On the other hand. GPG and Stardock are great companies, and I have faith that this game will be awesome. There are many aspects of Dota that Demigod should incorporate into their game. One such aspect is that the player shouldn't always be forced into linear play because of map contraints.

The thing is that this game is going to suceed for the same reason LoL will. People who play DotA will play this, even if it is worse.

Quoting Orkimond,

reply 13

The thing is that this game is going to suceed for the same reason LoL will. People who play DotA will play this, even if it is worse.

Let's hope it doesn't suceed because it is worse. In my opinion it is already better in many ways, though gameplay elements need to come in. Hope we can see those shortly.

The fact of the matter is if this game is going to succeed is has to become more than Dota

The fact of the matter is if this game is going to succeed is has to have as little as possible to with Dota. Dota is one thing - Counterstrike 1.6 in 2008. A completely outdated game, which had free engine and art assets (no cost of development), as well as free for the people playing it, which is only played by a small hardcore fanbase, utterly opposed to any newcomers. If you tried to actually SELL Dota - you'd have the biggest flop of the year on your hands.

And yes, a hundred demigods that are actually 10 or so demigods repeated over and over again with different models is exactly what Demigod needs.

It take like 100,000 dollars to make 1 demigod if they made 100 they'd go bankrupt. Thats why they dond't make so many they have to pay that much to make 1 and they already are gonna make like hopefully 12+ im including dlc.

Quoting DatonKallandor,

reply 15

And yes, a hundred demigods that are actually 10 or so demigods repeated over and over again with different models is exactly what Demigod needs.

I didn't say any of this.

Quoting DatonKallandor,

reply 15

And I generally said this except the fact that I don't see how it can't be related to Dota if it has the exact same concept, like Counter Strike to CS: Source. Demigod needs to make itself its own game and become more than what Dota is. Its exactly what I said. The game will fail if it doesn't and right now it feels too much like Dota without the aspects that make it really fun. Also I feel everyone is being way to critical of this comparison considering the game is currently in an Engine test stage. Any comments that Demigod should follow Dota's playstyle are simply people adding opinions on what would make the game fun and generally give developers ideas. I don't think I'll post here until I see and test the new changes because I feel like Dota players are being attacked for simply their like of the game. I wrote another thread advocating the use of less heroes as long as they are all balanced equally in competitive play.

The game will fail if it doesn't and right now it feels too much like Dota without the aspects that make it really fun.

Heartsbane - Let's take this away from defending or attacking one game or the other. What elements of DOTA and similar would make Demigod more fun? I'm assuming dynamic maps are one example. What else?

More complicated hero skills and synergies would be something I would look for in later heroes. Also I am actually more interested in what could be put in the game that Dota doesn't have. Currently, Demigod's only difference in the current beta is the capturable map points, but even these are like Roshan (a super creep who drops and special item.) What we really need to see are the changes that have been made in the new beta. I want to see the new items that have been added. Most of the issues I have right now is I have stated is how linear the gameplay is, which should be fixed with more complex maps that allow the player to use the terrain to his advantage. This would allow players to affect the game more than simply pushing their creeps forward and destroying towers. Also, the system in which money is made in Demigod might want to be rethought. Weaker characters that are better at pushing for example Torch Bearer should be able to make money faster than lets say the Unclean One. But in the current system, the Unclean one seems to make money faster because money is made in hero killing, which in turn in according with his character type makes him completely overpowered. Something not in Dota that I would like to see is the ability to heal towers perhaps. I need to go back and finish my 15 page paper and study for the rest of my finals. I want to wait to say what Demigod could use more of and less of officially in a non Engine only build.

maybe u should talk about this on the demigods vs dota thread cause guys your really off topic.

Quoting Soccer194,

reply 20

maybe u should talk about this on the demigods vs dota thread cause guys your really off topic.

OK, I'll not take this any further down the garden path, but quickly: You should write some of this up in posts if you see the same issues in Beta 2, Heartsbane. I like your thoughts on economy and complex terrain especially, and I think we would all like to see skill synergy.

Thanks,

Ke5trel

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Terramis' Feedback Thread