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I'd like some DRM and Spyware clarification.

fingers crossed

By on June 19, 2008 7:57:58 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
Stardock has been good about DRM in the past and when I heard about Impulse I was giddy - "Could this be," I said, 
"a digital distribution platform that isn't inferior to buying the retail copy?"

As I said, Stardock generally treats its customers pretty well, so I have high hopes here, but I've been burned so
often on this stuff that I need to be careful. I'm hoping that someone in authority can respond to some concerns
that I have. To try and stay away from hypotheticals, I'm pairing each of my concerns with real examples of where
and how things have gone wrong.

First, the DRM:

How does digital distribution work? Well you pay some money, you download an install file, you run the install, and
you play your game. Fine. Many services (I think Impulse is included here) make the download and the install
seamless, but it still happens. So the question is, what can I do with the install file once it's downloaded?

What I'd like to do is burn it to a disc and throw it in the closet. This gives me a copy that I can use to reinstall
with or to install onto a different computer or partition. My worry is that the install file is run and then
auto-deleted, preventing me from doing anything else with it. Let's be clear - I don't care about the install file
itself, what I want is a hard copy that will survive hard drive failures and formats, corporate buyouts and
bankruptcy. This can take the form of a single file or many but regardless of its form this is something that I've
come to expect, and I believe rightfully so, when I buy a game at a store.

The key here is that I be able to actually use this copy that I've made and the reason is independence. Let's work
with an example:

Let's suppose that I want to buy On the Rain Slick Precipice of Darkness (and I do). I have a few options: One, I
could get it from Greenhouse. That would give me an installation file that I could burn to a disc and throw in the
closet. So far so good. The problem comes when it's time to install something off of that disc - if I get it from
Greenhouse, the game comes with mandatory software activation. In other words, when I install it I have to ask a
server somewhere for permission and if I don't have an internet connection, or that server is down, or that server
no longer exists, I can't play my game. This is a serious problem in theory, but I said that I didn't want to work
with hypotheticals so here are a couple examples where this has already become an issue:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071107-major-league-baseballs-drm-change-strikes-out-with-fans.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080422-drm-sucks-redux-microsoft-to-nuke-msn-music-drm-keys.html

I have a further personal example: I purchased a game called Firewall, made by Bolt Software, a couple years ago. It
was an interesting little indie RTS. Bolt Software has since gone out of business and, though I still have the
install file, I can not play the game.

So Greenhouse isn't a good option, how about Steam? Well, I don't know whether Steam packages the developer's DRM
with the game or not, but it certainly includes its own - Steam mandates activation for everything you buy through
it. There's also spyware, but I'll get to that.

So Steam's out too. Now my hope, based on Stardock's reputation, is that Impulse is different. If I buy Precipice
through Impulse, what am I getting exactly? Does Impulse attach DRM of its own? Is the publisher's DRM intact or
does the Impulse version of the game have the DRM removed? Would I know the difference between a DRMed game and a
DRM-free game available through Impulse (is it clearly marked)?

Most importantly, if I buy a game through Impulse can I throw it in the closet (with my boxed games) and know
that it will work regardless of what happens between now and when I take it out again?


Note: This does not mean that the game can have no DRM at all. This means that any DRM would have to be independent
of outside organizations and sufficiently permissive to let me play the game - this is vague, I'm really just
trying to say that if I pull the game out of the closet I expect it to work. It can't be tied to a server that
may not be up, or to the MAC address on an ethernet card that I had six years ago when I first download the game.
A CD check on the other hand, while a pain in the butt, would still be functional six, ten, or twenty years from
now on whatever hardware I have at that time.

Even better than burning the install file would be burning the actual contents of the retail disc. The reason for
this is that the retail disc is sometimes needed for atypical functionality. Again, not wanting to work with
hypotheticals:

Neverwinter Nights got Linux support after its release, but installation under Linux required pulling files off of
the retail disc. There are several games that have worked their Linux support this way. There are also sometimes
bonuses that come on the retail CDs - Dead or Alive (Dreamcast) included somewhat racy pictures of certain cast
members on the GD ROM as an easter egg that was only accessible when the disc was read in a computer.

I would hate to miss out on either functionality or bonuses because I purchased a game digitally rather than in a
store.

Can I know that the downloaded copy will be able to do everything that the boxed copy will be able to do?

All right, now let me ask about spyware:

Like DRM, spyware can come packaged with the platform (Impulse) or with the game itself. Steam, for example,
collects all sorts of potentially embarrassing information on its users, from whether they're little wusses who
play on easy to how pathetically many times they've died on a given map:

http://www.steampowered.com/status/ep2/ep2_stats.php

Likewise, Quake Wars incorporates ads into the game which are sold by a third party, and, along with those ads,
bundles an app that keeps track of what players are doing in relation to the ads (how long they're looking at them,
from what angle, etc.) and reports back to the third party with this information. Even if Impulse didn't collect
any user information itself, if Quake Wars was sold through Impulse this would be a concern.

Any game that is surreptitiously sending home more information than is required for its operation can be labeled
as spyware. A single player game, for example, should be sending out nothing at all beyond, perhaps, a check for
an updated version.

Note that I don't consider opt-in user surveys to be spyware provided that they are clear and honest about what
they are reporting back.

Will Impulse collect information on its users? If so, what information? Whether Impulse does it or not, will
games sold through impulse collect information on their players? Will we know which games do this?


Even if Impulse packages no DRM or spyware of its own, I realize that some publishers may insist on including their
DRM with games that Impulse distributes alongside other games which may be DRM-free. If I'm going to use impulse
I need to know which is which.

If DRM restrictions are different for different games, will the games be *clearly* labeled so that I know which
games come with which restrictions before I buy them?


I've tried to make both the questions and the motivation for them as clear as possible here. The bolded questions
are the important ones - feel free to respond either to the questions directly or to their intent.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and answer my questions. I hope that this will allay not just my
fears, but those of others as well.
+1 Karma | 31 Replies
June 19, 2008 10:57:32 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

The version of Rain-Slick on Impulse is the same that you'd get from GreenHouse (or anywhere else). So it still calls out to their activation servers once you register your serial with it. 

Essentially, with Impulse, we are supporting whatever protection methods that the publisher/developer requires us to.  For some, they're fine with our SSD system which is very user-friendly and works.  Other publishers require that we support their DRM, like SecuROM, to sell their games.  We've talked a bit internally about listing if a game uses outside DRM or not, but nothing is final yet (some publishers don't want people to know that info).

The digital download versions of games are the same as their disc-based counterparts, except the need for the disc itself. Impulse does not contain any Spyware and has, in fact, been verified as such by the Anti-Spyware Coalition. We don't sell our user's information and our privacy policy goes into detail on this.

June 19, 2008 12:32:42 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
Thank you for answering my questions. I'd just like to clarify one thing:


"The digital download versions of games are the same as their disc-based counterparts, except the need for the disc itself."

Does this mean that I can burn the downloaded version to a disc (and throw it in my closet)? (i.e.: Are the files available in a directory somewhere, or are they encrypted / deleted?)


"We've talked a bit internally about listing if a game uses outside DRM or not, but nothing is final yet"

I'll consider this hope for the future.
June 19, 2008 12:45:45 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums
Does this mean that I can burn the downloaded version to a disc (and throw it in my closet)? (i.e.: Are the files available in a directory somewhere, or are they encrypted / deleted?)


You can archive the downloads, burn them to a disc, and 'throw them in [your] closet', yes. You'll just need to reinstall Impulse in order to install from those archives.

And concerning the off-chance that Stardock doesn't exist in ten years - Brad has always said that if his company goes under, he would release patches for all the games so they can be installed/played indefinitely.
June 19, 2008 1:20:04 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums
You can archive the downloads, burn them to a disc, and 'throw them in [your] closet', yes. You'll just need to reinstall Impulse in order to install from those archives.


correct or whatever Software manager SD is using at the time. I imagine in 10 years they may have made a new one to replace impulse.

SD is very good about Making sure the customer has easy access to their purchased software.
June 19, 2008 2:32:23 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
Er, these two statements:

"The digital download versions of games are the same as their disc-based counterparts"

"You'll just need to reinstall Impulse in order to install from those archives."

are contradictory. Could you clarify?
June 19, 2008 2:50:07 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums
Impulse packages the files in it's own archive type.  It needs to be restored via Impulse.
Think of Impulse as a DVD/CD-Rom drive and and the archive as a CD and you'll be fine 
June 19, 2008 3:36:54 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
Ok, so if we look at my example of installing the Linux version of Neverwinter Nights - I would purchase NWN via impulse, burn it to disc, then use impulse (in Windows) to browse that disc and find the files that I need for the Linux install, transfer those files to a Linux readable partition (or burn another disc with those files on it), then boot into Linux and perform the rest of the installation?

This is a little convoluted maybe, but as long as I can also burn Impulse to a disc that goes in my closet alongside the others then I suppose that I retain independence. That's really what's important.
June 19, 2008 3:51:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Could you clarify?


The game itself, once installed, is identical, though the means of getting to that point may vary.
June 19, 2008 3:57:47 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
Ok, so if we look at my example of installing the Linux version of Neverwinter Nights - I would purchase NWN via impulse, burn it to disc, then use impulse (in Windows) to browse that disc and find the files that I need for the Linux install, transfer those files to a Linux readable partition (or burn another disc with those files on it), then boot into Linux and perform the rest of the installation?
Zubaz reads this.  Goes to get a strong drink.  Comes back to read it again.  Reads it.  Agrees (he thinks). and drinks again.

This is a little convoluted maybe, but as long as I can also burn Impulse to a disc that goes in my closet alongside the others then I suppose that I retain independence. That's really what's important.
      
June 19, 2008 5:02:31 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Ok, so if we look at my example of installing the Linux version of Neverwinter Nights - I would purchase NWN via impulse, burn it to disc, then use impulse (in Windows) to browse that disc and find the files that I need for the Linux install, transfer those files to a Linux readable partition (or burn another disc with those files on it), then boot into Linux and perform the rest of the installation?

Um, in order for something like that to work, there are a number of IFs that would all have to be met...

  • IF the game had Linux binaries/resources available
  • IF the developer provided those to us to distribute through Impulse
  • IF the game used its own activation/validation scheme outside of Impulse (since Impulse is in no way supported on Linux, you wouldn't be able to activate via it)

Basically, don't look at Impulse as a method to get games for Linux, even running them in Cedega could be a dicey thing and we simply can't support it.

June 20, 2008 4:22:39 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
I can now confirm that we will begin listing the method of DRM that's in use in the products we sell via Impulse.  That should start appearing sometime next week.
June 20, 2008 5:11:49 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
This is extremely encouraging, thank you.
June 20, 2008 5:36:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Thanks for the update, Yarlen.

The extra information will be a great help in maintaining confidence in Stardock during this transition period.
June 20, 2008 10:59:27 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
I can now confirm that we will begin listing the method of DRM that's in use in the products we sell via Impulse.  That should start appearing sometime next week.


THANK YOU YARLEY!
June 21, 2008 10:04:28 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
I can now confirm that we will begin listing the method of DRM that's in use in the products we sell via Impulse.


This is good news. Hope the publishers understand what their low sales mean when they try something nasty
June 23, 2008 9:52:58 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Well, we're approaching it this way - let's give the consumer the information and let them make an informed decision from there.

I hope/plan to link the DRM info to another page that gives some detail on what the particular method does.  As we all know, some are very benign, while others are not. So far - for the games at least - there's nothing on Impulse that's worse than online activation (one-time).

 

June 23, 2008 10:55:09 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
I can now confirm that we will begin listing the method of DRM that's in use in the products we sell via Impulse.?? That should start appearing sometime next week.


Ladies and gentlemen, give this guy a cookie!

This is something that even Steam fails to do rightly. It's very frustrating to find broken/incompatible/etc. DRM on there. Why should it be hidden from me anyway as a buyer?

Thank you.

Note: HUAC will be contacting you soon for your mandatory hearing. [Joke]
June 24, 2008 2:52:25 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
I can now confirm that we will begin listing the method of DRM that's in use in the products we sell via Impulse.?? That should start appearing sometime next week.


This is a very nice feature for end-users.

In the past, I've tried Direct2Drive/Fileplanet, Steam, and another service (can't recall the name - it was used to register the independently-developed Harpoon 3 series games).

Each of those services had one or more issues that led me uninstall the products I'd purchased. These issues included:

* cumbersome installation and registration/confirmation requirements
* late (if any) patches and updates for the purchased apps
* rootkit-like behavior (stemming from hidden or non-standard file systems, hidden and purposely mal-formed registry keys, unecessary system resource utilization, increased system instability)
* cumbersome (or complete lack of) backup/archive capabilities to external media (i.e., CD/DVD)
* cumbersome (or impossible) mechanism to recover license keys/registration info in the event of computer replacement or data loss (and subsequent lack of backups/emails/etc).

With the exception of one game (of five) that I'd purchased via Stardock (Hacker Evolution, which didn't get patches in any realistic time-frame), Stardock's SDC (and now, Impulse) seem to minimize or eliminate all of the above issues I've previously encountered with the other names services. (As an aside, the dev for Hacker Evolution registered me separately outside of Stardock after I'd posted on their forum asking for SD to be updated with the then-current version, and thereafter provided all updates/patches and added content directly to me through his site. So for that product, the issue was resolved separately by the game developer.)

Bottom line for me is that I don't want DRM applets/rootkits/hidden 'stuff' loaded on my computer. As far as digital distribution methods and services go, SDC and Impulse have been the best I've found so far.
June 24, 2008 3:41:31 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums
SC said:

And concerning the off-chance that Stardock doesn't exist in ten years - Brad has always said that if his company goes under, he would release patches for all the games so they can be installed/played indefinitely.


Well, I would think that for legal reasons, Brad would only be able to do this as it relates to games that are Stardock properties (like SoaSE, GalCivII, etc). Obviously, I don't know the ins and outs of Stardock's legal arrangements with third parties, but I expect that if he released patches for all games available through Impulse, some of those third parties might be a bit unhappy.


Yarlen said:

I can now confirm that we will begin listing the method of DRM that's in use in the products we sell via Impulse. That should start appearing sometime next week.


cool

Aesir Rising said:

In the past, I've tried Direct2Drive/Fileplanet, Steam, and another service (can't recall the name - it was used to register the independently-developed Harpoon 3 series games).

Each of those services had one or more issues that led me uninstall the products I'd purchased. These issues included:

* cumbersome installation and registration/confirmation requirements
* late (if any) patches and updates for the purchased apps
* rootkit-like behavior (stemming from hidden or non-standard file systems, hidden and purposely mal-formed registry keys, unecessary system resource utilization, increased system instability)
* cumbersome (or complete lack of) backup/archive capabilities to external media (i.e., CD/DVD)
* cumbersome (or impossible) mechanism to recover license keys/registration info in the event of computer replacement or data loss (and subsequent lack of backups/emails/etc).


I've never used Direct2Drive, but the site says that you can easily make a backup DVD. Has anyone else had problems with D2D? I'm curious because I've thought about buying a few games through there.

For my own part, I've bought a few games through Steam, and I don't find it to be particularly problematic--although I haven't really seen an easy way to make backups for Steam games. On the other hand, I can't see Valve folding in the near future, so . . . .
June 24, 2008 4:48:10 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
I can now confirm that we will begin listing the method of DRM that's in use in the products we sell via Impulse.  That should start appearing sometime next week.


Very good decision. Thank you.

- Ash
June 25, 2008 12:23:22 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
I've used Direct2Drive. All their games are packed in .exe or .zip or what have you which is extremely annoying to install, but you can copy that installer wherever you like.
June 25, 2008 11:03:42 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
Has anyone else had problems with D2D? I'm curious because I've thought about buying a few games through there. For my own part, I've bought a few games through Steam, and I don't find it to be particularly problematic--although I haven't really seen an easy way to make backups for Steam games. On the other hand, I can't see Valve folding in the near future, so . . . .


As said before you can move the installer anywhere you want, unfortunately it uses online activation with a limited number of activations once it is installed. (Phoning home in the process.)

I have also noted that Direct2Drive has started removing older titles that they no longer sell from their distribution servers as well, so be warned.

As far as steam goes, it uses a propriatary system to compress (really **** well, by the way) and encrypt(I think) the downloaded game files as they were in the steam directories. The result is that it tacks on an exe to allow you to unpack them at a later date locally. You must own the games (or log into an account that does) to unpack them again.

The backup utility has been known to not create the executable file, the solution for that has been to download it from Steam's support site. I've used it before (tried to back up 120gb of games), but apparently the archiver doesn't work too well for large batches. (Locks and crashes.)
June 26, 2008 9:30:41 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I always find it curious that people worry about Stardock going out of business and yet having no concerns about the same happening to Valve. Stardock has been in business since 1993 - longer than Valve. Stardock has been in the digital distribution business longer than Valve and we make more money as a company than Valve does (if you have access to certain paid reports, you can find this out for yourself).

I don't mean to come across as anti-Valve, but people really have their facts skewed.

June 26, 2008 9:51:58 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums
I always find it curious that people worry about Stardock going out of business and yet having no concerns about the same happening to Valve. Stardock has been in business since 1993 - longer than Valve. Stardock has been in the digital distribution business longer than Valve and we make more money as a company than Valve does (if you have access to certain paid reports, you can find this out for yourself).
I don't mean to come across as anti-Valve, but people really have their facts skewed.


It seems that gamers don't realize just how big Stardock is because they only see the games side of things, which isn't that huge.

What they don't realize is there are a whole lot of us who have spent a hell of a lot more (and will continue to pay, because GalCivII, for example, was a one-time cost, whereas I update ODNT and my WinCustomize subscriptions yearly) on desktop customization software.

Oh well. It's worth a laugh when they get all scared.
June 26, 2008 2:51:15 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
Even on games we're a lot bigger than most people realize.  No respect for the non-FPS developer.
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