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The game industry’s problem with misogyny

By on July 23, 2014 1:29:48 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

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The Internet is toxic, but its toxicity is usually equal opportunity

One of the more annoying trends in our society has been the substitution of action with rhetoric.  This has really taken off in the age of Twitter where people think hashtags are a replacement for actually doing something.

Today I read an Opinion Piece on Polygon called “No Skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry”  by a woman named Brianna Wu. It's an article I recommend checking out.

However, I do have some criticisms of the piece. For starters, it is a bad piece of journalism. It relies completely on sensationalist emotionalism to back up its blanket assertion (“the daily harassment of women in the game industry”). 

Such articles, even opinion pieces, are apparently not open to discussion.  As soon as I expressed some criticism on Twitter the haters came out in force. All sense of reason evaporated.  My criticism was: Be aware that sometimes allegations of sexual harassment are false (remember what happened to me). Sometimes, some women choose to take criticism/teasing/abuse as being due to their sex. 

Let me give you the part from the article that caused me to write my tweet in the first place. 

This is the example Ms. Wu provides as an example of sexual harassment women face:

Two things to point out about this: First, anonymous user (which is one of the sources of why Internet discussion can get so toxic) and second, while clearly abusive, this has nothing to do with the writer being female.  I have gotten tweets to me very similar to this when I've made a casual tweet regarding a game console. Ask Phil Fish about internet abuse. Trolls will cater their trolling to their target.

The point of my tweet is that we need to be careful on this because *sometimes* the allegation that it's *sexual* harassment is false. 

The article provides 4 such anecdotes. The Internet has plenty of vile behavior that many of us run into regularly. But this article tries to make sweeping conclusions with it. I take issue with articles that make sweeping (and arguably sexist) charges against men using 4 anecdotes as evidence.

If we were debating any other topic and someone made a broad, far reaching claim and backed it up with nothing more than 4 anecdotal examples they’d get reamed.  But because we are talking about an ism, it is taboo to raise any skepticism about the article’s agenda.

I’ve been in the game industry a long time. I’ve seen its ugliness in many different forms. So let me tell you: This subject matter is delicate and should be treated as such. 

So let's look at the responses I got when I tweeted that women sometimes make false claims of "sexual harassment" when in fact what they received had nothing to do with their sex:

To which I respond:

Which gets:

Buzzfeed's Nicol Leffel goes right to name-calling almost immediately.

Ugh. There were much more vile responses than these but I blocked them and now I can't find them on twitter.  The point being, even attempting to discuss the topic invites assumptions of sexism and abuse.

There IS misogyny in the game industry but not where the professional victims would have you believe

The misogyny I've seen in our industry is not representative of game culture in general but is a manifestation of Internet toxicity. Let's start with the sexist reaction successful women in the game industry often receive. When a man does something impressive and gets some publicity, they get kudos and support.  But if a woman does something impressive and gets the same publicity, their experience is likely to be terrible and humiliating.  I’ve seen this first hand and it’s discouraging.  But it would be wrong to imply that this is a general issue. Internet culture is toxic.  

...But we have to be careful that this issue isn't exploited by opportunistic people to for professional or personal gain.

I have first hand experience with this. Those of you who know me know the hell I went through when I was falsely accused of "sexual harassment" by a former, opportunistic employee who was hoping for a quick pay off.  

Let me say it plainly: There are women who will exploit this delicate topic for financial or professional gain. Maybe they’re “journalists” who know it’s a quick, easy way to get their article published on Kotaku. Maybe it’s a former journalist whose just gotten into the game industry who wants her upcoming project to get coverage. Or maybe it’s a young woman mad at her boss who wants to exploit the issue to make money. And of course, maybe it’s a legitimate reporting on a serious problem. But sorry, I’m a skeptic now. I didn’t use to be such a skeptic but 2 years of unwarranted smears and death threats have made me take these claims with a grain of salt.

So what can we do?

I’m an engineer, I’m interested in solutions and I think there is a lot we can do to address this issue:

  1. Punish people who harass other people. I.e. Permanently ban someone who writes the kind of disgusting invective that the article cites.  XBox Live and other services allow for an immense level of abuse of all kinds. Don’t tolerate it anymore.
     
  2. Eliminate anonymous profiles on social networks like Xbox Live, Twitter, YouTube. Game sites could eliminate comment anonymity if they were genuinely concerned about this issue.  Anonymity has a place on the net -- forums, groups, etc.  But mainstream social networking should not be anonymous. Maybe it's not doable but as long as it is, trolls will be able to exploit this.
     (I've changed my mind on #2)

  3. Encourage / Reward those who actually DO something. The reason “white knighting” is despised is because it’s really about people making themselves feel good about themselves.   Less rewarding of progressive rhetoric and more reward of progressive action.
     
  4. Encourage people to talk about the transformative effects of a more diversified working environment. We hire a lot of women because it makes our products better. Not because women are “just as good” as men but rather because men and women bring unique strengths.

    Running a company dominated by one sex puts them at a distinct disadvantage in the talent area.  Men and women are different.  Here’s a “sexist” statement: It has been my experience that women are better at UI design than men. I have no idea why. That’s 20 years of observation talking. Men tend to be better at debugging. No idea why. Don’t care. Both seem to be equally effective at writing buggy code.

     
  5. Scrutinize and punish those who make false claims on this topic. We need to be very very careful about tarring and feathering people on this issue. Don’t reward those who are trying to profit from playing the sexism card.

Choose to be part of the solution: Do your part to make the Internet a less toxic environment. Don’t just blindly support empty, feel good pap. Keep your critical thinking cap on.

Update: Slashdot comments are very interesting and in stark contrast to the empty progressive rhetoric on Twitter. http://games-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/07/22/229256/the-daily-harassment-of-women-in-the-game-industry

Update 2: Added more content, added item #2 regarding anonymity. Fixed Typos. (see edit history).

Update 3: Added pics from Twitter.

Update 4: Typos, streamlined.

Update 5: Crossed out item 2. I've been persuaded that it's a bad idea. 

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July 23, 2014 8:41:01 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting garion333,

Well, I can't say I'm particularly thrilled with being lumped into a political debate, but I will concede the point that life is in the things you do, however that doesn't preclude us from how we shape and use our language.

I don't know you so I won't assert whether you're a progressive or not.  What I am saying is that progressives tend to fixate on words rather than deeds.  I've been in enough debates on social justice, global warming, etc. to recognize that for progressives, it's often more about making themselves feel good rather than actually doing something.

 


One of the issues with the "judge people only on their actions" idea is that the actions we see from people online are words (for the most part). I am not willing to fully divorce a person from their words. I'm not going to sit here and argue the pen is mightier from than the sword (although it can be) but it would be silly to judge people solely on actions alone. After all, there's business built around manufacturing image.

If I post a picture of our games team that clearly shows that nearly half the team are women, I think it says a lot about the "safe" environment we have.  It also shows that we hire based on merit and not based on some frat house mentality.  Meanwhile, you have guys like Charles Randall who you just know works somewhere where there's probably few if any women there.  Why is that? Well, we know why don't we? That's what his "white knighting" is about.  It's to make himself feel better about the fact that in real life, he's probably part of the problem.  Hey, maybe I'm wrong, I'm willing to give him as much benefit of the doubt as he's willing to give me.

 


Our words do matter, especially when you and I are only able to communicate through them online (atm). I'd say things like MLK's Dream speech and chants of We Will Overcome are as much a part of the power of the Civil Rights movement as much as the actions. It's all tied together and I struggle to look at the world as a place where it's okay to say anything I want so long as I don't "rape her skull" or actually show up and murder you.

I concede that point.  However, there's a big gray area of speech that is open to interpretation.  Like Jafo later says, my statement was taken by him to mean that the anecdotes in that article aren't really that unusual compared to what many people get (like myself) on a regular basis.  You chose to interpret it differently.  Who's fault is that? Someone could have asked for clarification.  And when I did try to clarify, our feminist friend claimed there was no way I could clarify without "looking like an asshole". Really?

 
Anyway, I'm wasn't claiming you said the ladies in the article need to toughen up, I'm saying you belittled their experiences by claiming yours (rightfully or not) were worse. If your point, as you claim, is that internet communication is toxic then perhaps it would've been better to have said that and left out the portion where you dismissed the experiences of two women in the gaming industry because their experiences didn't measure up to the stuff you've seen others receive or you yourself have received.

I'm not belittling their claims.  I am, however, saying that the abuse they experienced may have had little to do with their sex and everything to do with the toxic culture of the Internet. 

As a reminder: According to Xan, people on another forum are posting pictures of my home. When Leigh has people posting her address and home on public forums let me know.

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July 23, 2014 8:50:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

->FB

They have a way of turning people into adversaries. I was only kindasorta interested until they called me a "sock puppet". I remember the flames I got on this very forum for ripping on Elemental.  anywhoooo

Your buddy Charles writes regarding why they're considered scum over there ->

Also the mistaken idea that we were the 'bad' element at Qt3, which, given that we were the founders of what is probably one of the most progressive and accepting forums on the internet, is quite the hilarious interpretation.

You claim to be tone deaf. Here's a dude not realizing that posting pictures of someone's house is an instaban offense on any other forum. HINT: YOU'RE NOT PROGRESSIVES. YOU'RE FASCISTS.

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July 23, 2014 8:55:30 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Posting pictures of your home is really beyond the pale. That said, how many rape threats do you get on a regular basis? The experiences of the two sexes in this industry are not identical, no matter how many times you say they are.

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July 23, 2014 9:01:12 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Ok Xan, do you have a link for this? I went over there but didn't see any of the usual "Brad Wardell is the devil" type threads at the top.  I think it might be time to take this to a different level Charles and those guys have crossed the line.

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July 23, 2014 9:04:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Ok Xan, do you have a link for this? I went over there but didn't see any of the usual "Brad Wardell is the devil" type threads at the top.  I think it might be time to take this to a different level Charles and those guys have crossed the line.

Here it is, Brad:

http://brokenforum.com/index.php?threads/1reasonwhy.4172/page-163#post-955933

It's in a thread called #1reasonwhy. They actually posted pictures of your home.

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July 23, 2014 9:06:07 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Maybe someone should call the police? If someone posted a picture of my house on a forum, I'd call the cops.

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July 23, 2014 9:06:14 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

For this BF place being a forum full of losers and nobodies, you guys sure seem to care a lot about what they say. I don't see much difference between this comments thread and the stuff Xan is constantly tattling back to us. Two echo chambers with opposing viewpoints. You're giving too much of yourself to them already, IMO.

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July 23, 2014 9:06:51 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Gazornenplatz,

Posting pictures of your home is really beyond the pale. That said, how many rape threats do you get on a regular basis? The experiences of the two sexes in this industry are not identical, no matter how many times you say they are.

Trolls, children and others are sufficiently adept at refining their abuses to suit their chosen target.

Violence [the threat of] tends to work better towards those 'assumed' to be weaker [than you].

Clearly property/identity exposure works better when targeted at people who have greater social/success standing [than you].

Remember...even the lowest form of life can adapt to its environment....

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July 23, 2014 9:12:23 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Ok that's too long a thread to look into. I actually have an account there.  I'm not worried about any of their ilk showing up at my house but if they did, they'd regret it.

However, if they want to make their beef with me a "Real world" thing I'm happy to oblige.

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July 23, 2014 9:13:37 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting Gazornenplatz,

For this BF place being a forum full of losers and nobodies, you guys sure seem to care a lot about what they say. I don't see much difference between this comments thread and the stuff Xan is constantly tattling back to us. Two echo chambers with opposing viewpoints. You're giving too much of yourself to them already, IMO.

When someone here starts posting addresses or pictures of people's homes let me know. Then we can talk about moral equivalence.  Also, welcome to the forum.

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July 23, 2014 11:48:08 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Frogboy,


Not all Progressives think that way.  Not a fan of that generalization. 


The answer to misogyny in gaming isn't to replace it with shrill, sexist, antagonism.

 

I fully agree, but I consider the group you're referring to "social justice warriors" not progressives.   The progressive types I respect, like the Moral Monday movement, actually try to get things done.  SJW is a bit of a perjorative term, but they do exist.

 

 

The problem is there's not enough folks who are willing or able to put their money/power/sweat where their mouth is.

It's also a shame that forum has its bad apples.  Not everything there is bad, but the bad just gets too annoying for me to deal with.  I just worry about some folks there being a bad influence on others- they have a lot of younger types who go there for the VN stuff.

 

Ironically, I think Impulse while you were running it was the first general-gaming DD service to carry a VN-type game.  (Shira Oka)

 

 

 

 

Quoting Emily,

Maybe someone should call the police? If someone posted a picture of my house on a forum, I'd call the cops.

 

As long as they don't imply a threat, it's protected speech under the 1st amednment, so that wouldn't work.

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July 24, 2014 12:23:19 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Alstein,

As long as they don't imply a threat, it's protected speech under the 1st amednment, so that wouldn't work.

No it isn't.

It doesn't even classify as 'speech'.

It's an intrusion into an individual's RIGHT to privacy, and exposes its target to potential injury and/or harm.

There is simply too much bullshit claimed to be protected under the auspices of the 1st Amendment.

I could say how it is a danger...but I won't, as I am not in the game of empowering morons.

 

And no, I'm not pointing the finger of 'moron' at anyone here on THIS particular forum/thread.

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July 24, 2014 1:47:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

At the risk of derailing the thread from the wonderfully insane topic of feminism, what's the difference between Moral Mondays and any other batshit insane social justice warriors?

 

They want people to be forced to perform abortions, forced to pay for abortions, and don't think abortion clinics should have to maintain cleanliness standards like any other surgical facility.  They also want to clog the legal system up with groundless appeals based solely on race, and label voter ID laws as racist.  They also protest over teachers, who typically only work 8-9 months out of the year, not making enough money.  The starting salary, per NEA stats, is over 30 grand, plus benefits.  Median household income is only 45.  A family of two teachers is beating the pants off their fellow Carolinians while people practice civil disobedience over their terrible compensation.

 

Gerrymandering would be a valid complaint, but it's purely partisan.  The level of gerrymandering was more crazy before they did it, and their first attempt failed. despite being radically less strangely shaped districts.  The state is horribly gerrymandered, no question about it.  It just didn't start with that last round of redistricting that gave the Republicans an advantage.

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July 24, 2014 2:06:01 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting psychoak,

At the risk of derailing the thread from the wonderfully insane topic of feminism,

Only 'worry' is whether the topic wobbles towards politics...at which point it is required to [quickly] wobble back. [not part of 'everything' re the forum sub-section]...

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July 24, 2014 9:05:37 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Wow, some of those postings are pure insanity.  To say that place is "broken" is putting it nicely.

 

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July 24, 2014 9:47:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Holy shit what a cesspool. I mean it's just pure hatred and vitriol, there's nothing remotely constructive. It's a total circle jerk, people are even apologizing for presenting a slightly different view on the tune.

But I guess those kinds of places need to exist on the internet. Reminds me of stormfront and other such nice places. The cause is different, the speech is the same.

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July 24, 2014 12:32:27 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

That thread is the #1reasonwhy some people should be sterilised at birth

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July 24, 2014 12:51:13 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

This thread has gone weird places.

Anyway, I kept thinking about an article and discussion in the comments I encountered at NoHighScores (blog from ex-GameShark writers, most notably Bill Abner) and thought some of you might like it, Brad especially. It's a cogent and respectful debate about feminism. Just thought I'd point out it does happen, folks.

Linking isn't working for me for some reason, so here: http://www.nohighscores.com/2014/06/11/maturity-inclusion-and-the-game-industry-in-2014/

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July 24, 2014 2:55:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Jafo,


Quoting psychoak,

At the risk of derailing the thread from the wonderfully insane topic of feminism,



Only 'worry' is whether the topic wobbles towards politics...at which point it is required to [quickly] wobble back. [not part of 'everything' re the forum sub-section]...

 

No point in continuing because we won't agree on the facts.

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July 24, 2014 3:19:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Island Dog,

Wow, some of those postings are pure insanity.  To say that place is "broken" is putting it nicely.

 

I lurk there for the game talk but stay for the ball crazy rantings they make. Sorta hysterical that they think their deranged views are not just reasonable but so reasonable that dissention means you have to be a "sock puppet". I told my wife about that last night. She asked if that means I don't have to buy my games anymore.

ANYWAYS BACK ON TOPIC

It is a shame that people rarely can have a cogent talk on this discussion. Harassment of women on the Internet derives from the underlying cesspool that makes up anonymous interaction.

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July 24, 2014 4:17:12 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting garion333,

This thread has gone weird places.

Anyway, I kept thinking about an article and discussion in the comments I encountered at NoHighScores (blog from ex-GameShark writers, most notably Bill Abner) and thought some of you might like it, Brad especially. It's a cogent and respectful debate about feminism. Just thought I'd point out it does happen, folks.

Linking isn't working for me for some reason, so here: http://www.nohighscores.com/2014/06/11/maturity-inclusion-and-the-game-industry-in-2014/

That is a fascinating article.

I also did peer at the BF thread. Their sense of entitlement is...breathtaking. Charles is whining about me being mean to him. Here's a guy who has spent years smearing me on Twitter and he thinks he's owed an apology. Just unbelievable. They troll me on Twitter and absolutely wilt and they get trolled back. If you can't take it, then don't dish it out. They should, by now, know that I enjoy this stuff.

The area of disagreement is plain. We agree on the below 3 points and disagree on item 4.

  1. Sexism is bad.
  2. Sexism in the game industry is prevalent
  3. We should stomp out sexism when we encounter it.
  4. TREATING WOMEN DIFFERENTLY THAN MEN IS STILL SEXISM.

If I receive an email from anyone (male or female) that tells me I need to watch what jokes I tell around the office because they are "sexist, vulgar, and embarrassing" my immediate thought is "Fuck you". If that person (male or female) had given an *example* of something I said they didn't like that would have been a totally different story.  You want to work at my company then you have to accept the prevailing culture. And, btw, that is the law. 

The BF types (and I've run into them on Twitter plenty) passionately believe that you need to "watch what you say" around women. No. I don't.  I talk to human beings as human beings. I don't have one set of rules for men and another for women. They're adults.

IF someone has a problem with something I say around them specifically then I will absolutely make an earnest attempt to comply with their wishes.  We had someone who hated the word "fart" and requested people refrain from that word. Everyone complied (that's just basic decency).  But if they had demanded that the word "fart" not be used at work at all, well no, too bad.

There is no middle ground on item #4.  You can't run a business where people are feeling like they have to walk on eggshells. If one of the BF folks thinks they can build a successful business where people's words are constantly scrutinized and there's blanket policies around "trigger words" they should go for it. But they don't, won't. They'll just sit back in befuddlement not understanding why the people they hate so much just get further and further ahead of them in life (using any metric one wants to use as my wife of 20+ years would say).

 

 

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July 24, 2014 5:18:39 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

I know you guys think the broken forum people are just loser-misfits but I think you're downplaying their potential for violence. Their obsession with Brad is extremely creepy.

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July 24, 2014 7:27:56 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Emily,

Their obsession with Brad is extremely creepy.

I'm sure their ADHD will eventually kick in and they'll find a new and exciting target....oh look...a butterfly....

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July 24, 2014 11:13:46 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting Emily,

I know you guys think the broken forum people are just loser-misfits but I think you're downplaying their potential for violence. Their obsession with Brad is extremely creepy.

 

(on iPad so this will be brief)

Theyre not dangerous or "evil". The reality is, I suspect. Most of them and I would get along fine in real life. 

BF is just a symptom of the toxic nature of insular, ideological-driven communities.  To them, I'm an empty vessel that they've poured every hated stereotype of white male privilege into. And I won't condemn them for that  because  ive done much the same back - in my mind the usual suspects there are the epitome of the cowardly progressive who thinks their rhetoric is a substitute for action and tries to make up for their inner sense of failure by lashing out at those who actually do stuff.  

As long as they treat me as the former i'll treat them as the latter. Especially since they are typically the instigators.  

 

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July 25, 2014 12:07:26 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Just read that article and it's interesting. I thought maybe I should weigh in here on whether making a game which only allows you to play a male avatar is sexist. My answer is, it depends, but usually no. While I appreciate the opportunity to play a female protagonist, I am not too concerned if the only option is to play a male one. Some stories would need to be entirely re-written for the female protagonist, which could be very expensive depending on a number of factors. If we're talking about changing a sprite or this game has a 1st person perspective, then the main cost would be adjusting the writing. If we're talking about rendering a different protagonist, designing separate clothes and armor for her, adjusting weapons and vehicles to accommodate this other protagonist's body, it probably adds up. So why don't more companies just make a female protagonist as the only option more often? Here is one possible reason. When I was in university, in the first week, we were shown Raiders of the Lost Ark in a freshman class and the teacher's assistant handed out a survey which asked us questions about our response to the film. We were asked to identify the protagonist and apparently everyone got that right. We were then asked which character do you personally identify with most? This is where it gets interesting. Only one student said Marion. About half the students were women. As it turns out, that's typical, year after year. Our TA (teacher's assistant) told us that media studies had consistently shown that girls and women were much more likely to identify personally with a male protagonist than boys and men are able to see a female protagonist as personally representing himself. In her view this was a problem she felt was a holdover from centuries of women in literature being support characters except in "women's lit," like Little Women.

How did Lara Croft succeed? Certainly she is a sexy character that many guys probably just enjoyed watching. However, I don't think it is a coincidence that the character was originally meant to be a man. Initially he was an Indiana Jones clone, and when it was changed to a woman, Lara retained many of the traditional male antihero features. Both sexes were able to identify with her. The character was behaviorally rather androgynous, though cosmetically her shape was about as realistic as Barbie in most depictions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lara_Croft

There are some other characters which break the mold. Hermione Granger is one. Check this out. Here is a poll which had over 70,000 votes:

http://harrypotter.bloomsbury.com/winner

It's worth noting that JK Rowling has said Hermione is based on herself. She has characterized herself as a geeky tomboy when she was young. The character is tomboyish until late in the series. Snape, the favorite, is, let's face it, not that traditionally masculine. When Rowling first hinted that one of the characters was gay, just about everyone assumed it was Snape. Perhaps we are culturally at a stage where androgyny represents a sort of compromise, a drifting away from flat stereotypes of both men and women. Hopefully we will begin to see more game protagonists of both sexes that are allowed to have a wider range of personalities.

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