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The game industry’s problem with misogyny

By on July 23, 2014 1:29:48 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

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The Internet is toxic, but its toxicity is usually equal opportunity

One of the more annoying trends in our society has been the substitution of action with rhetoric.  This has really taken off in the age of Twitter where people think hashtags are a replacement for actually doing something.

Today I read an Opinion Piece on Polygon called “No Skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry”  by a woman named Brianna Wu. It's an article I recommend checking out.

However, I do have some criticisms of the piece. For starters, it is a bad piece of journalism. It relies completely on sensationalist emotionalism to back up its blanket assertion (“the daily harassment of women in the game industry”). 

Such articles, even opinion pieces, are apparently not open to discussion.  As soon as I expressed some criticism on Twitter the haters came out in force. All sense of reason evaporated.  My criticism was: Be aware that sometimes allegations of sexual harassment are false (remember what happened to me). Sometimes, some women choose to take criticism/teasing/abuse as being due to their sex. 

Let me give you the part from the article that caused me to write my tweet in the first place. 

This is the example Ms. Wu provides as an example of sexual harassment women face:

Two things to point out about this: First, anonymous user (which is one of the sources of why Internet discussion can get so toxic) and second, while clearly abusive, this has nothing to do with the writer being female.  I have gotten tweets to me very similar to this when I've made a casual tweet regarding a game console. Ask Phil Fish about internet abuse. Trolls will cater their trolling to their target.

The point of my tweet is that we need to be careful on this because *sometimes* the allegation that it's *sexual* harassment is false. 

The article provides 4 such anecdotes. The Internet has plenty of vile behavior that many of us run into regularly. But this article tries to make sweeping conclusions with it. I take issue with articles that make sweeping (and arguably sexist) charges against men using 4 anecdotes as evidence.

If we were debating any other topic and someone made a broad, far reaching claim and backed it up with nothing more than 4 anecdotal examples they’d get reamed.  But because we are talking about an ism, it is taboo to raise any skepticism about the article’s agenda.

I’ve been in the game industry a long time. I’ve seen its ugliness in many different forms. So let me tell you: This subject matter is delicate and should be treated as such. 

So let's look at the responses I got when I tweeted that women sometimes make false claims of "sexual harassment" when in fact what they received had nothing to do with their sex:

To which I respond:

Which gets:

Buzzfeed's Nicol Leffel goes right to name-calling almost immediately.

Ugh. There were much more vile responses than these but I blocked them and now I can't find them on twitter.  The point being, even attempting to discuss the topic invites assumptions of sexism and abuse.

There IS misogyny in the game industry but not where the professional victims would have you believe

The misogyny I've seen in our industry is not representative of game culture in general but is a manifestation of Internet toxicity. Let's start with the sexist reaction successful women in the game industry often receive. When a man does something impressive and gets some publicity, they get kudos and support.  But if a woman does something impressive and gets the same publicity, their experience is likely to be terrible and humiliating.  I’ve seen this first hand and it’s discouraging.  But it would be wrong to imply that this is a general issue. Internet culture is toxic.  

...But we have to be careful that this issue isn't exploited by opportunistic people to for professional or personal gain.

I have first hand experience with this. Those of you who know me know the hell I went through when I was falsely accused of "sexual harassment" by a former, opportunistic employee who was hoping for a quick pay off.  

Let me say it plainly: There are women who will exploit this delicate topic for financial or professional gain. Maybe they’re “journalists” who know it’s a quick, easy way to get their article published on Kotaku. Maybe it’s a former journalist whose just gotten into the game industry who wants her upcoming project to get coverage. Or maybe it’s a young woman mad at her boss who wants to exploit the issue to make money. And of course, maybe it’s a legitimate reporting on a serious problem. But sorry, I’m a skeptic now. I didn’t use to be such a skeptic but 2 years of unwarranted smears and death threats have made me take these claims with a grain of salt.

So what can we do?

I’m an engineer, I’m interested in solutions and I think there is a lot we can do to address this issue:

  1. Punish people who harass other people. I.e. Permanently ban someone who writes the kind of disgusting invective that the article cites.  XBox Live and other services allow for an immense level of abuse of all kinds. Don’t tolerate it anymore.
     
  2. Eliminate anonymous profiles on social networks like Xbox Live, Twitter, YouTube. Game sites could eliminate comment anonymity if they were genuinely concerned about this issue.  Anonymity has a place on the net -- forums, groups, etc.  But mainstream social networking should not be anonymous. Maybe it's not doable but as long as it is, trolls will be able to exploit this.
     (I've changed my mind on #2)

  3. Encourage / Reward those who actually DO something. The reason “white knighting” is despised is because it’s really about people making themselves feel good about themselves.   Less rewarding of progressive rhetoric and more reward of progressive action.
     
  4. Encourage people to talk about the transformative effects of a more diversified working environment. We hire a lot of women because it makes our products better. Not because women are “just as good” as men but rather because men and women bring unique strengths.

    Running a company dominated by one sex puts them at a distinct disadvantage in the talent area.  Men and women are different.  Here’s a “sexist” statement: It has been my experience that women are better at UI design than men. I have no idea why. That’s 20 years of observation talking. Men tend to be better at debugging. No idea why. Don’t care. Both seem to be equally effective at writing buggy code.

     
  5. Scrutinize and punish those who make false claims on this topic. We need to be very very careful about tarring and feathering people on this issue. Don’t reward those who are trying to profit from playing the sexism card.

Choose to be part of the solution: Do your part to make the Internet a less toxic environment. Don’t just blindly support empty, feel good pap. Keep your critical thinking cap on.

Update: Slashdot comments are very interesting and in stark contrast to the empty progressive rhetoric on Twitter. http://games-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/07/22/229256/the-daily-harassment-of-women-in-the-game-industry

Update 2: Added more content, added item #2 regarding anonymity. Fixed Typos. (see edit history).

Update 3: Added pics from Twitter.

Update 4: Typos, streamlined.

Update 5: Crossed out item 2. I've been persuaded that it's a bad idea. 

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July 22, 2014 9:57:25 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

I agree, Twitter is an imperfect tool for such discussions.

I don't indulge in discussions for which Twitter would be the 'perfect tool' .

I'm more inclined to think that Twitter is populated by a disproportionate number of 'perfect tools' ...

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July 22, 2014 10:18:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

HAHA. Update. The BF losers called me a sock puppet. I've got to be the only sock puppet to get publicly flogged by the fanboys on these very forums for flaming Elemental and Demigod as not being ready before release! I feel like I should be paying them for my entertainment.

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July 22, 2014 10:39:03 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting Jafo,

Quoting Frogboy,

I agree, Twitter is an imperfect tool for such discussions.



I don't indulge in discussions for which Twitter would be the 'perfect tool' .

I'm more inclined to think that Twitter is populated by a disproportionate number of 'perfect tools' ...

I enjoy Twitter for getting info on interesting topics. I do engage in some trolling (or counter-trolling depending on ones POV).

HAHA. Update. The BF losers called me a sock puppet. I've got to be the only sock puppet to get publicly flogged by the fanboys on these very forums for flaming Elemental and Demigod as not being ready before release! I feel like I should be paying them for my entertainment.

This is nothing new.  I have seen on countless occasions them accuse people of being my sock puppet on QT3.  Don't tempt me to go over there, please.  Generally, they really have no idea how few people really agree with them. That's how they ended up on there in the first place. Some of them (like Matt Gallant) got banned to BF because they used sock puppets. So it's not surprising that those banned for using them would in turn assume everyone else does.

Sock puppets, at least in my experience, are there so someone can say something they're afraid to say as "themselves".  So just to be clear: My opinion on most of the BF regulars is that they're a bunch of cowardly, sociopathic pieces of shit who I have wished on many occasion I could meet at a trade show to relate to them in person how cowardly I think they.  I've attended many a QT3 dinner and made a point to get to know everyone there just to see any of them are one of the cowardly trolls who've posted online.  I'd love to see how well they can communicate whatever their beef is with me without their circle jerk of sociopaths to support them.  And before some litigious idiot thinks I'm threatening violence, I'm purely talking about seeing if they even have the courage to face me and argue their points.  So open invitation.

 

 

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July 23, 2014 12:05:30 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Ah...in a 'perfect world' the quote function would....... work.....

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July 23, 2014 1:36:29 AM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting Borg999,

BTW Brad..aren't you supposed to be on vacation?

 

Seriously, put down the laptop and relax.

 

It was raining today at the lake.

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July 23, 2014 2:26:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Another example of hypocrisy comes from our friends at Broken Forum.  When I was accused of "sexual harassment" one of their regulars posted (paraphrasing) "Yea, I remember meeting him at a Qt3 dinner and he came in with 3 women. Talk about insecure."  The three women were our PR manager, our Marketing manager and our Executive Scheduler. I.e. all positions of authority at our company. But they assumed because I traveled with 3 women that they were somehow just "arm candy".  That's the kind of sexism you regularly see by the very people who constantly "white knight" the issue.

You have now entered the doublethink land of extreme feminism. They will insist that women should be treated equally (I agree) but they are unable to think that way themselves. 

A person wrote a piece in a Swedish newspaper that was overwhelmingly in favor of feminism ("now that I have a daughter I see why feminism is so important"). The response from readers was positive. BUT a very vocal part of the readership wouldn't stop talking about how problematic it was that a MAN was writing about why feminism was important.

If you are against women in general reaching success, or sincerely believe they are just bad at doing some stuff, you are probably misogynist. However, if you, as a man, are supportive, you are instead "white knighting" and "taking the struggle away from the women".

If a woman is not successful at a task, it must be because the system is stacked against her. If a woman is successful, she must have sold out to the system. Example: prostitutes (I admit, a rather sensitive subject). Women should be free to choose their own sex partners and life vocations, but women who choose to become prostitutes are universally detested by the extreme. There was actually a media-presence in Sweden a few years back, a feminist porn actress who firmly declared that she was free to do whatever she wanted with her body, she certainly didn't feel any shame about her sexuality and so on. Well, you can imagine the response... they attacked her intelligence, her upbringing, her other political views... some even wanted state censorship because they didn't want their children associating feminism with prostitution. The message: she was not a TRUE feminist, even though she lived the ideals as she saw them and was empowered as a result.

 

Extreme feminism has their dial of "people criticism" turned up to 16. The problem is it only goes from 0 to 10. That means that even if you do everything right, at least 60% is actually wrong anyway. Extreme feminism is highly exclusive, and will preach tolerance but tolerates nothing.

As a man who believes in true equality, it bothers me that the extreme feminists did not complain that 75% women was an over representation. It reminds me of a Swedish political party that a few years back firmly established that their seniority was the most equal ever - 60% were women! This was, in their mind, more equal than other political parties who were closer to 50%.

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July 23, 2014 2:41:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,


Quoting TheJaker,

It's a bit sad that more focus isn't put on the general incivility of the Internet. Men can be creeps both in real life and at a bar. The Internet just exasperates that. But the issue is a lot broader than people being abusive of a sex. Anyone who has ever posted a YouTube video can tell you that.



Truth. I once posted a skit of us testing bee allergies in the office and people thought that was real. It was reported, in the media, as REAL.

Charles Randall, who, I repeat, is not a pedophile, I don't care what others might say, has said that I am a "known sexist". I'm "known" because I once said, in an email back in 2010, in sarcasm that I'm a sexist, vulgar and inappropriate person. Now imagine how Charles "Not a pedophile" Randall might feel if people kept making false claims about his NON-pedophilia. If someone says something in writing (if ANYONE says it apparently) even if it's sarcastic, some idiot will assume it's true.

Like bee experiments.


Your ability to get folks to believe it's real- maybe you should have gone into pro wrestling promotion? 

 

Seriously, as someone who knows folks who do suffer discimination in the industry - it's frustrating as hell to see it.  It's much more frustrating to folks who live it.  You want to fight for your friends to give them justice, and sometimes, you don't always pick the best battles.  That said, you're one of the few game companies I'd recommend my friends to actually work at given what I've heard about how people are treated over at Stardock.   (most of the time they don't exactly fit qualification or are unwilling to move though)

 

Really, if more folks hired women and gave them the ability to contribute, things would be better.  The problem is that many companies aren't doing this, and can't be trusted to change.  The stockholders don't care.

 

Note: this is not the same as trolling.   As for the folks who won't agree on the facts: there's nothing you can do to change their minds- it's not worth trying.   I think you wasted a half hour on Twitter trying with that one person earlier today.

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July 23, 2014 8:13:23 AM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Quoting Ekko_Tek,

Brad, reading your posts here, I understand where you're coming from and the nuance you bring to the topic, but your Twitter response was fairly thoughtless. One of the, if not the #1, criticism/annoyance with discussions on sexism, racism, etc. is that privileged groups often blunder into those discussions with the attempt to frequently de-rail the topic and steer it back to them. For example, on racism "Yeah, but reverse-racism is a thing too!!" for example. Your first reaction/response was to direct the topic back to you personally and cast doubt on the veracity of the issue. People freaking out with vitriol at that isn't necessarily just a response to your comment, but rather to the cumulative effect of comments like yours being the go-to response from people not in that group on a fairly regular basis. I'm saying this as a white male myself - just trying to give you some perspective on how this gets viewed. Like I said, I understand this wasn't necessarily your intention, but, that's the way it comes across, and the short burst nature of Twitter is not really conducive either to these discussions.



I am sure that I am the most tone deaf person out there. 

The intent was to respond to Jeff Green, my friend. Others chose to join in.  I agree, Twitter is an imperfect tool for such discussions.  I just found the whole article exploitive of an important issue. Part of my issue has to do with knowing the various media sites and many of the studios.

That said, having been shit on about an issue where the allegations against me were with either completely made up or taken so out of context and then reading the article I can say that the abuse I took during that time makes what appeared in that article look like a walk in the park.

I had people posting my home address and saying that someone should come to my house and teach me a lesson one dark knight.  I had Google maps pictures of my homoe with a skull and gross bones pictured.  The email I received, in the hundreds a week, for months after the story hit are things that you can't easily set aside.  And for what? If the allegations made against me had been even 25% true, then sure, I say I deserved it.  But I didn't send "purity tests" out as suggested or make random nipples comments or ask about bras or anything like that. 

So no, I won't be letting this issue go. Ever.  As long as jack asses like Charles Randall and his ilk want to libel me on the net I'll happily and enthusiastically respond.

 

That you are being tone deaf is exactly the issue, Brad. Immediately after admitting it you go on to be entirely tone deaf towards the experiences of others by belittling their experiences because they weren't as "tough" as what you went through. Waving a flag and jumping up and down about the abuse you took while claiming that when someone else does it (in this case females) is click bait is hypocritical and continues the trend of being tone deaf.

If your intent was to have a discussion with Jeff Green then you probably should've left your comment privately and not openly on Twitter. I feel like you are continuing to use your tone deafness as a defense. Approaching hot button issues without the armor of tone deafness and using less privileged language does lead to more thoughtful discussion. Your Twitter posts and even your blog article are rife with privileged language however, which is Ekko_Tek is attempting to point out.

Such articles, even opinion pieces, are apparently not open to discussion.  As soon as I expressed some criticism on Twitter the haters came out in force. All sense of reason evaporated.

It is exactly how you said it, now why. If you can learn to overcome this tone deafness you may be able to have more genuine conversations, but expecting to have anything but extreme responses on Twitter seems like a silly thing, it is not an effective medium for conversation and you shouldn't expect it to be. If four responses on an Opinion piece aren't legitimate to you then I would counter by saying your anecdotal experience on Twitter isn't a legitimate argument to me that these sorts or articles or opinions can't be discussed, I know they can. They just need to be handled with a little more tact.

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July 23, 2014 9:21:09 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Hehe, I'll just say this.  As a 20 army vet, I've seen and been through many sexist and racist crap.  Damn I'am glad I don't have to go though that now.  I do fell the pain for those that do go through it.

Hehe, an as an old bastard that went through the 60's of ban the bra and I'll pay for myself and the famous...I can open my own door.  I've been through enough.

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July 23, 2014 10:48:11 AM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting garion333,

That you are being tone deaf is exactly the issue, Brad. Immediately after admitting it you go on to be entirely tone deaf towards the experiences of others by belittling their experiences because they weren't as "tough" as what you went through. Waving a flag and jumping up and down about the abuse you took while claiming that when someone else does it (in this case females) is click bait is hypocritical and continues the trend of being tone deaf.

It is exactly how you said it, now why. If you can learn to overcome this tone deafness you may be able to have more genuine conversations, but expecting to have anything but extreme responses on Twitter seems like a silly thing, it is not an effective medium for conversation and you shouldn't expect it to be. If four responses on an Opinion piece aren't legitimate to you then I would counter by saying your anecdotal experience on Twitter isn't a legitimate argument to me that these sorts or articles or opinions can't be discussed, I know they can. They just need to be handled with a little more tact.

You read in a great deal more into what I've written than what I've said. 

"you go on to be entirely tone deaf towards the experiences of others by belittling their experiences because they weren't as "tough" as what you went through."

I said nothing of the kind.  You even quote the word "tough". What I am saying is that a lot of the trash talk they ran into is, sadly, indicative of the toxic culture of the Internet and has relatively little to do with their sex.  I would also point out that the self-proclaimed defenders of "fairness" are the first ones to resort to invective and abuse.

Consider both Twitter and this discussion: The only people using foul language were the so-called feminists. It's not as if there were people injecting themselves into the conversation saying sexist or abusive things about women. 

Also, I didn't suggest that 4 anecdotes aren't legitimate.  I am saying that if someone is making the claim about "all men" or "what all women go through" then using 4 anecdotes, of which at least 2 of them sounded very much like the type of abuse game developers/designers get all the time, that you're not making a very good case.

 

And let's talk about double standards. From the article:

I like Leigh but that's an incredibly sexist statement to make.

Articles like this and the *reaction* to them are not helping stop sexism or creating "awareness". They're just raw meat and a permission slip for far left goons to go out and attack anything or anyone who dares dissent.

 

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July 23, 2014 12:08:54 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I am hoping that when Leigh Alexander made that statement, it was poorly phrased, and the intent was to say that sexist men have such assumptions. That would still have been overly broad but sexists of both sexes do sometimes have that sort of view of the other sex. A friend of mine was told when he tried to join NOW that he cannot be a feminist because he is male and had no place joining NOW. That is ridiculous. I had an elderly male professor who had been a member of NOW since it started. He showed us his founding member card and told our class how glad he was to see so many women in his technical class. He was a feminist. My parents were. For me it's too narrow. I am equally bothered by inequality men suffer. Feminism as practiced by some(but far from all) feminists is sometimes brazenly sexist. There, I have said it. If I get flack for it, there are plenty of examples on the internet I can link. Or, I could say, talk to a male hospital nurse sometime and ask what work issues he faces from both staff and patients.

Sexism is still a problem, and in the game industry I think it probably affects more women than men in job placement, but perhaps not in terms of family/work conflicts. I have read blog posts regarding crunch time in which men have complained when they worked for (various game companies) they could not take time off to see the birth of a first child or even bond with a new child, for months. Obviously a pregnant woman does not have the birth leave issue and if she loses her job because she was giving birth, she could sue and very likely win.

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July 23, 2014 1:05:59 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
You read in a great deal more into what I've written than what I've said. 

"you go on to be entirely tone deaf towards the experiences of others by belittling their experiences because they weren't as "tough" as what you went through."

I said nothing of the kind.  You even quote the word "tough". What I am saying is that a lot of the trash talk they ran into is, sadly, indicative of the toxic culture of the Internet and has relatively little to do with their sex.  I would also point out that the self-proclaimed defenders of "fairness" are the first ones to resort to invective and abuse.

Consider both Twitter and this discussion: The only people using foul language were the so-called feminists. It's not as if there were people injecting themselves into the conversation saying sexist or abusive things about women. 

Also, I didn't suggest that 4 anecdotes aren't legitimate.  I am saying that if someone is making the claim about "all men" or "what all women go through" then using 4 anecdotes, of which at least 2 of them sounded very much like the type of abuse game developers/designers get all the time, that you're not making a very good case.

Well, I hate this. Lost an entire post. Guess I'll have to summarize and try to make my point again. Let me begin with this:

Quoting Frogboy,
"you go on to be entirely tone deaf towards the experiences of others by belittling their experiences because they weren't as "tough" as what you went through."

I said nothing of the kind.

Quoting Frogboy,

I can say that the abuse I took during that time makes what appeared in that article look like a walk in the park.

Directly from the Frog's mouth there. I don't believe I was reading too much into what you were saying when you exactly said that the females in the article didn't deal with harassment as "hard" or as "tough" as you did.

The thing is I agree with you about the response on Twitter. Your comment was somewhat innocuous and the response was perhaps overly vehement. However, it appears you're failing to understand the larger issue at play here. Please, re-read what Ekko_Tek said earlier:

Quoting Ekko_Tek,
One of the, if not the #1, criticism/annoyance with discussions on sexism, racism, etc. is that privileged groups often blunder into those discussions with the attempt to frequently de-rail the topic and steer it back to them. ... Your first reaction/response was to direct the topic back to you personally and cast doubt on the veracity of the issue. People freaking out with vitriol at that isn't necessarily just a response to your comment, but rather to the cumulative effect of comments like yours being the go-to response from people not in that group on a fairly regular basis.

It doesn't matter your intent, it doesn't matter how many women you hire, what matters is how you say things because how you say something determines how it is interpreted.

You come from a place of privilege. That's because you are a white male in this society. I come from the same place. Unfortunately that lumps us both into an unfair category with individuals who can be pretty nasty and vocal and do horrible things. I don't want to be lumped in with them any more than you do. And the females in the games industry don't want to be lumped in with your accuser, which is exactly what you suggested on Twitter. And you're doing it here by pointing out that "so-called" feminists were using foul language. Am I now? Is this thread filled with foul language? Not really. By focusing on the language and tone being conveyed is an example of what's know as tone policing. If what Ekko said is the #1 criticism/annoyance with discussions then tone policing has to be #2.

I imagine your response to this post is to further say I'm reading too much into what you're saying and that's fine, I can't read your mind anymore than you can read mine, but I can read what you've said and make some assumptions based on how you said what you said. I'm trying to tell you that how you are saying things is affecting what you're saying.

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July 23, 2014 1:24:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I've seen that sentiment a lot, it probably wasn't poor phrasing, just poor rationale.

 

Feminism shares the same traits any emotionally charged ideological strain does, an inability for most applicants to rationally view the subject they're partaking an extremist view in.  Radical feminists will necessarily share many of the same traits they deride in their misogynist opposition because they're more two sides of the same coin than anything.

 

The people with the clearest view on purely emotional issues are generally those that really don't give a red rats ass either way.  Once someone locks into a perspective, their mind skews reality to fit it.  It's not something plainly intellectual, like math, or even a combination subject, like economics.  It's a a subject that resides in the realm of emotion, which is why we end up with people that think everything a man does for a woman is an insult, and everything women do is some conniving attempt to manipulate a man.  When you hit rock bottom in your delusions of animosity, a simple polite gesture, that likely wasn't even done with regard to gender in the first place, becomes an attack.  At this point, all men are the devil, and statements such as the above are just minor details in life.

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July 23, 2014 3:18:05 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting garion333,

You come from a place of privilege. That's because you are a white male in this society. I come from the same place. Unfortunately that lumps us both into an unfair category with individuals who can be pretty nasty and vocal and do horrible things.

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July 23, 2014 3:43:45 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

@Garion

That was one of the most thoughtful and well written responses I've seen on the topic. As an aside, do you do a lot of writing as part of your career? As someone who writes a lot but isn't always effective at conveying my intent, I have a real appreciation for people who can write succinctly and clearly.

Onto the content itself:

I did write: "I can say that the abuse I took during that time makes what appeared in that article look like a walk in the park."

But that is not the same as saying that those people need to be "tougher". The point is that Internet "culture" is incredibly toxic. We have an overall problem with the way people treat each other when they're behind the computer that has almost nothing to do with sexism. 

I've heard voice mails and read emails to our tech support over the years that are worse than what was posted in that article.  It's shocking. It's awful. But not "sexual harassment". The answer isn't for people to "grow a thicker skin" but rather to demand that people treat people better by enforcing behavior standards online. Name names.

Unfortunately, often the worst offenders of harassment and abuse are so-called progressives who use read meat like this article to justify harassing people online.

Let's consider the reactions I received from so-called progressives:

  • Nicole Leffel from Buzzfeed wrote "Have you considered that all these women could be LYING about harassment?" - Games CEO Brad "Her Nipples Look Better on TV" Wardell.  Her smear intentionally misquoted and misrepresented my statement (poisoning the well) and then took a false allegation "nipples on TV" and repeated it as if it were true. Let's flip that situation. Imagine a woman was raped and a bunch of disgusting guys kept posting that she was a slut and wasn't actually raped. That would be pretty horrible. And before some idiot tries to make a strawman, I'm not equating rape with spreading libel about someone. I'm pointing out that this person, even after corrected continues to take a disgusting allegation about someone else and propagate it.
  • Charles Randall from Capy (another game studio) regularly labels me as a "sexist". Have I done something "sexist"? Have I even been accused of having done something "sexist"? So why does he make such a charged allegation? Because by attacking someone else he can feel better about himself. He's nothing more than a garden variety troll that likes to abuse other people while hiding behind a progressive shield (much like Nicole). He actually thinks he's somehow *helping* the cause by openly trying to get others to dogpile and those who don't share his specific politics.

The others I won't bother to list because they're either kids or deranged but these two should know better.  It's the same problem you get with progressives on lots of other issues. If you don't agree 100% with them you are vilified and told to "shut up" (or dog piled by their mob).

Let's look at the checklist:

  1. [X] Sexism is bad.
  2. [X] We should actively try to address the issue of sexism through multiple means (see https://medium.com/@a_quiet_voice/what-have-you-done-to-support-feminism-in-games-bd89ca977bd9 as someone who has written a thoughtful article on the topic even though she's responding to a strawman argument that involves me)
  3. [X] We should actively work to create more diversified working environments in the game industry
  4. [ ] We should treat women as a protective class because white men are a "privileged" group

Ah, and that's where I become the enemy.  I don't agree that women should be treated differently. I don't support separate but equal. That means, NO, I'm not going to watch what I say around women. If you don't like my style of humor, find another job.  I'm going to treat one human being the same as another human being. I'm not going to sweat about "triggers" or other progressive #firstworldproblem bullshit.

It doesn't matter your intent, it doesn't matter how many women you hire, what matters is how you say things because how you say something determines how it is interpreted.

I appreciate this statement because it illustrates the axiom difference between conservative/libertarians vs. progressives. Progressives really do think "what matters is how you say things.."  No. It doesn't matter at all.  Progressives may earnestly wish the world worked this way but it doesn't. It is what you DO that matters.

The Civil Rights movement and the Gay marriage movement made progress because of the actions of individuals. Marching, lobbying, getting active in elections.  The progress didn't happen because of the way they said things.  It's because of actions.

You won't find people abusing each other here. We don't use words like "WinCustomize is a safe place for women to be creative". We MAKE it a safe place for human beings through vigorous enforcement.

By contrast, on Broken Forum one time, someone posted a Google Map picture of my home with my address (the intent was pretty clear). Eventually Lum (or someone) got rid of it and not before a few people chimed in supportive comments.  Can anyone fathom a regular here thinking that sort of thing was acceptable to do? And *those* are the so-called "progressives" who are oblivious that it's people like them that contribute so much to the toxicity of online discourse.

I wish progressives were less wrapped up with "how to word things" and more interested in the things they are DOING (or not doing).

 

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July 23, 2014 4:35:59 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Not all Progressives think that way.  Not a fan of that generalization.  

 

Ultimately, I think having more access to being able to make things makes things better.  That's reason alone to support more inclusiveness.

 

Things are really bad in Japan (I've heard some horror stories from the creator of Battle Fantasia for example)

 

 

 

 

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July 23, 2014 5:03:05 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

The others I won't bother to list because they're either kids or deranged but these two should know better.  It's the same problem you get with progressives on lots of other issues. If you don't agree 100% with them you are vilified and told to "shut up" (or dog piled by their mob).

I appreciate this statement because it illustrates the axiom difference between conservative/libertarians vs. progressives. Progressives really do think "what matters is how you say things.."  No. It doesn't matter at all.  Progressives may earnestly wish the world worked this way but it doesn't. It is what you DO that matters.

I wish progressives were less wrapped up with "how to word things" and more interested in the things they are DOING (or not doing).

 

I've been "dog piled and told to shut up by conservatives...

Blanket generalizations are never a good idea. It just compounds the whole "use vs. them" mentality, and will never lead to any productive conversation.

Also, there are different "degrees" of progressive-ism, where people who are labeled as such can disagree on a variety of issues. It's not a homogenous group. Just as conservatives have the whole "you're not a true conservative" thing, so do progressives in their own way.

 

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July 23, 2014 5:09:45 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Not all Progressives think that way.  Not a fan of that generalization. 

Of course, in the progressive world something like that would fall under #notallmen maybe there should be a #notallprogressives

Let's look at the Twitter account of the author of the article that started this discussion:

https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal

When I read her article, one thing that gave me the itchy scratchies is that it was such an obvious attempt to get coverage. It took little effort that this was timed to give her new game maximum coverage on the eve of release. 

Anyway, READ her tweets.  This is not a nice person.  Now, pick any of her tweets, even the meanest and it's absolutely full of supportive comments. 

This tweet caught my eye:

I found such a broad generalization, especially from a person with barely 3 years experience in the game's industry breathtaking. And of course, she received totally supportive comments. If sexual harassment in our industry is so wide spread, as she claims, then where are the malicious responses?

Compare the support she's getting compared to the abuse I took for having the slightest criticism of her article (and *gasp* reminding people I knew about what I went through, I'm just such a narcissist).  The only reasonable conclusion is that hostility towards women specifically really isn't that wide spread. And my assertion would be so easy to disprove: Just find some twitter threads where women are being harassed. Should be easy right? The reality is, day to day Internet harassment is normally progressives harassing the infidels.

The answer to misogyny in gaming isn't to replace it with shrill, sexist, antagonism.

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July 23, 2014 5:22:03 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Well, I can't say I'm particularly thrilled with being lumped into a political debate, but I will concede the point that life is in the things you do, however that doesn't preclude us from how we shape and use our language.

 

One of the issues with the "judge people only on their actions" idea is that the actions we see from people online are words (for the most part). I am not willing to fully divorce a person from their words. I'm not going to sit here and argue the pen is mightier from than the sword (although it can be) but it would be silly to judge people solely on actions alone. After all, there's business built around manufacturing image.

 

Our words do matter, especially when you and I are only able to communicate through them online (atm). I'd say things like MLK's Dream speech and chants of We Will Overcome are as much a part of the power of the Civil Rights movement as much as the actions. It's all tied together and I struggle to look at the world as a place where it's okay to say anything I want so long as I don't "rape her skull" or actually show up and murder you.

 

Anyway, I'm wasn't claiming you said the ladies in the article need to toughen up, I'm saying you belittled their experiences by claiming yours (rightfully or not) were worse. If your point, as you claim, is that internet communication is toxic then perhaps it would've been better to have said that and left out the portion where you dismissed the experiences of two women in the gaming industry because their experiences didn't measure up to the stuff you've seen others receive or you yourself have received.

 

(I apologize for any weird formatting as I'm on my phone and everything isn't quite working as I'd like.)

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July 23, 2014 5:27:06 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

The answer to misogyny in gaming isn't to replace it with shrill, sexist, antagonism.

 

More statements like this and less of the "wherever you see attacks online it's progressives" would serve you better.

 

Now, let's talk more about what we CAN do.

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July 23, 2014 5:45:32 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting psychoak,

I've seen that sentiment a lot, it probably wasn't poor phrasing, just poor rationale.

 

Feminism shares the same traits any emotionally charged ideological strain does, an inability for most applicants to rationally view the subject they're partaking an extremist view in.  Radical feminists will necessarily share many of the same traits they deride in their misogynist opposition because they're more two sides of the same coin than anything.

 

The people with the clearest view on purely emotional issues are generally those that really don't give a red rats ass either way.  Once someone locks into a perspective, their mind skews reality to fit it.  It's not something plainly intellectual, like math, or even a combination subject, like economics.  It's a a subject that resides in the realm of emotion, which is why we end up with people that think everything a man does for a woman is an insult, and everything women do is some conniving attempt to manipulate a man.  When you hit rock bottom in your delusions of animosity, a simple polite gesture, that likely wasn't even done with regard to gender in the first place, becomes an attack.  At this point, all men are the devil, and statements such as the above are just minor details in life.

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July 23, 2014 6:00:35 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting garion333,

I'm saying you belittled their experiences by claiming yours (rightfully or not) were worse.

Curiously I read that as 'women should not be singled out as the sole recipients of online abuse, as is evidenced by my [Frogboy's] own experience/s of same'.

99% of online 'argument' is down to word-choice, pure and simple.

Expressing an opinion, PARTICULARLY with someone who may be in an 'extremity' of social normalcy will almost always be mis-construed for point-scoring or troll-worthiness ...

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July 23, 2014 8:07:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Broken Forum is the gift that just keeps giving. If you guys won't go over there let me give you the details...

They spend a few posts showing Brad's big house and critiquing it from a google maps picture. Then one of them writes:

Is there a perception that people on Broken Forum are...well...broken? What's with the 'failures in life' comment? Normally, I would chalk it up to some random insult that is the equivalent of calling us all losers, but there was something specific in the wording that led me to wonder if there's some reason why people think of us as losers? I get that not being a CEO makes us losers of a sort to Brad, but again, I'm not sure that's what he meant there.

It's like DUH. Yea you're a bunch of losers. What gave you the clue? The fact you post pictures of other people's big houses and whine about them or the fact that half of you are only there because you already got banned from other forums? They're so deluded that they think we're sock puppets of Brad. Out of touch with reality.

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July 23, 2014 8:32:32 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Broken Forum is the gift that just keeps giving. If you guys won't go over there let me give you the details...

Silence, sock puppet!

To answer the person you quoted's question is this:

They're losers because they do nothing but throw figurative spitwads at people they are envious of.  The fact they posted a picture of my house really says it all.

They're obsessed with me personally despite the fact that I agree with them on nearly 90% of the issues they care about. So what's their real beef?

It starts with QT3.

They're game industry wannabes. They've romanticized being in the game industry and in the decade or so since we've "known" each other they've made no progress while when we met we were a < 10 person shop and in that time we've grown and become very successful. Rather than look at their own failings (or question why they've been banned) they instead lash out in the most personal way possible.

If you were to actually sit one of them in a room and try to get them to logically explain their hatred they'd be incoherent because we actually agree on virtually every issue. 

Henry Crossen (BillD) tweeted me about the "failure" of Elemental. So let's give some examples they might latch on:

  1. Elemental was a bad game when released. Yep. It was. It was my fault. I have tried to make up for it by giving away its sequel and expansion. Can they name some other company that has done something similar?
  2. But you blamed Miseta for Elemental's failure. No. I didn't. It's still my fault that we didn't have a better backup setup. But that doesn't let a malicious employee off the hook -- and I didn't make it public. She did. I was willing to accept 100% of the public blame.
  3. But you are a political conservative! Well, true, somewhat.  More of a libertarian. I just think the government should leave people alone. Is that really that evil? My views on gay marriage, abortion, and many other issues are identical to theirs. But that's not enough I guess.
  4. But you "sexually harassed" that women. No. I didn't. I simply maintain that people shouldn't be forced to change their speech based on the sex of those around them. I fought that in the courts and won. They won't accept that their POV lost.
  5. But sure, she wrote an apology letter but you forced her.  I didn't force her. She could either have her case decided by a jury or write an apology for her inflammatory UNTRUE allegations.

Mainly, I think they're losers because they are so oblivious to the bubble they live in that they make statements about general reality that make them look like imbeciles. I don't have that luxury. I'm on a lot of forums and I publicly post on many other mediums. If/when I say something out of the mainstream, I get called on it.  But because most of them are cowards (and I mean that literally, they're very brave on their little forum but they absolutely disintegrate on say Twitter even after rallying their friends to attack) they never get out there and discover how extreme and narrow their world view is. 

It turns out, that last 10% where we don't agree is that difference between mainstream thought and lunatic fringe libtard.

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July 23, 2014 8:33:40 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

Quoting Jafo,

Quoting garion333,

I'm saying you belittled their experiences by claiming yours (rightfully or not) were worse.



Curiously I read that as 'women should not be singled out as the sole recipients of online abuse, as is evidenced by my [Frogboy's] own experience/s of same'.

99% of online 'argument' is down to word-choice, pure and simple.

Expressing an opinion, PARTICULARLY with someone who may be in an 'extremity' of social normalcy will almost always be mis-construed for point-scoring or troll-worthiness ...

Indeed. When you have 140 characters to express something, how people interpret it has more to do with their biases than what the original writer wrote.

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