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WAR of MAGIC & FALLEN ENCHANTRESS

By on March 28, 2011 4:20:33 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

imageOne of the most common series of questions I’ve been getting over the past month is what the difference between War of Magic and Fallen Enchantress will be.

The marketing folks want me to keep the specifics to a minimum so I’ll focus on broad terms. 

The Plague Cat you see on the right would never have been in War of Magic. That’s because War of Magic was much more broadly scaled.  Fallen Enchantress, by contrast, is much more tightly designed.  Put another way, Fallen Enchantress isn’t an expansion pack for War of Magic.  It’s a new strategy game that takes place in the Elemental universe (hence Elemental: War of Magic, Elemental: Fallen Enchantress, there won’t be an Elemental II for example because it would be like having a Star Wars II).

War of Magic, hence focuses on building a kingdom where your primary competitors are other kingdoms and empires. It’s very much like Galactic Civilizations in that sense.  The terrain itself in War of Magic is of only minor importance and the individual soldiers and heroes are heavily abstracted.

imageFallen Enchantress, by contrast, has the world itself as one of your primary antagonists. The cataclysm has ruined and in the vacuum of civilization other…things have taken hold of the land.  From a lore perspective, War of Magic broadly takes place in the West of Anthys, far from the epicenter of the cataclysm.   Told largely from the point of view of the men of the West, the races of the East, collectively called “The Fallen” are treated as villains.   By contrast, Fallen Enchantress largely revolves the much more hostile and dangerous East.  There, we learn that there is a lot more nuance to the various races fighting for survival. The world itself is as much your enemy as Magnar or Kraxis.

Fallen Enchantress is a much more personal experience. Winning is not just about building up the most lethal civilization but also adapting to the environment. As a result, weapons, magic, and technology are much more specific. You’ll need to look at what your opponents are up to and focus on countering it. Biggest mob != Win.  You don’t have housing in Fallen Enchantress. City Building is much more specialized. You won’t be building the same kinds of things in every city but instead of customizing your cities such that they can meet the threats and environments they exist in.

Stay tuned.

+912 Karma | 52 Replies
March 28, 2011 4:26:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The marketing folks want me to keep the specifics to a minimum so I’ll focus on broad terms.

Daggum marketing folks.

March 28, 2011 5:03:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You don’t have housing in Fallen Enchantress

makes me sad i hope the new method is better

March 28, 2011 5:37:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

sounds fun and interesting, i am all for something new.

March 28, 2011 5:39:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Winning is not just about building up the most lethal civilization but also adapting to the environment. As a result, weapons, magic, and technology are much more specific. You’ll need to look at what your opponents are up to and focus on countering it. Biggest mob != Win.  You don’t have housing in Fallen Enchantress. City Building is much more specialized. You won’t be building the same kinds of things in every city but instead of customizing your cities such that they can meet the threats and environments they exist in.

 

You say some good things there; the kinds of things I like to hear.

 

In WoM, besides my Channeler and children/champions,  I had two basic troop types mid and late game:

  • Melee troop with strongest armor and strongest weapon;
  • Ranged troop with strongest bow.

Actually, my Channeler and children/champions would fall into the first category. If I am forced to make up a more diverse army in FE, I'll be happy.

 

I thought that housing in WoM was nice idea, but I can understand removing it. It became tedious to build houses every few turns for small towns to grow and they took up a lot of space.

March 28, 2011 6:13:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

it's gonna be the same type of game though, right? 4X and all? Sounds like Dragon Age 2... 

March 28, 2011 6:16:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

not enough info ... give us more please.

March 28, 2011 7:25:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
it's gonna be the same type of game though, right? 4X and all? Sounds like Dragon Age 2... 

 

No. Dragon Age 2 is significantly worse than Origins, whereas Fallen Enchantress will be an improvement after WoM.

March 28, 2011 7:46:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

We will finally get a world generator like that of Galactic Civilizations? Because the War of Magic one wasn't too great...

Also... when will be able to see some scrennshots of FE? Nothing revealing like a new civilization, terrain type or whatnot, but just to see how it is visually different (You mentioned once that we would be able to tell which we are playing just by lloking, so I take the overall visuals change somewhat drastically, exluding new content like monsters and such)

March 28, 2011 8:08:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

That's a great update chief . Forgive me if I'm wrong, but, the description above seems to fit in a lot with what was originally planned with Elemental doesn't it? If not what "was planned", then perhaps I should say what "was wanted"? I know we've covered these ideas before, especially city specialization, which I my-self made a post about a long time back. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's in the big Idea's List.

Yeap, here it is:

[Gameplay-Map] City Specialization, Building Caps, and Guilds (Guild Bonuses & Buildings)

 

 

March 28, 2011 8:19:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

[Editing post created ex nihilo another postAnnihilate this one please ]

March 28, 2011 8:20:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The Plague Cat you see on the right would never have been in War of Magic. That’s because War of Magic was much more broadly scaled.

Is the future RPG you guys are/will be creating going to be even more narrowed? I like the idea!

edit: I meant that I like the idea of three different games in Elementalverse with three different scopes, not that I don't like the large scope of E:MoM.

March 28, 2011 8:23:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I am really upset housing is gone, I like housing, I think it adds to the immersion of my cities.

So does that mean population is gone too?

March 28, 2011 8:52:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting low42,

Quoting awuffleablehedgie, reply 5it's gonna be the same type of game though, right? 4X and all? Sounds like Dragon Age 2... 

 

No. Dragon Age 2 is significantly worse than Origins

exactly my point

March 28, 2011 10:39:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As with any sequel, there will be people who hate it and talk about how much better the old one is.

March 28, 2011 11:15:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well the devs seem to at least listen to whats been said in the forums & I for one have hi hopes for whats been done in E:FE.

March 28, 2011 11:59:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FadedC,
As with any sequel, there will be people who hate it and talk about how much better the old one is.

i doubt that

Quoting BlackRainZ,
I am really upset housing is gone, I like housing, I think it adds to the immersion of my cities.

So does that mean population is gone too?

there's nothing fun about the way this is implemented in EWOM.  have you ever run out of pop?  not me.


  City Building is much more specialized. You won’t be building the same kinds of things in every city but instead of customizing your cities such that they can meet the threats and environments they exist in.
Stay tuned.

i like the sound of this... cuz building 50 studies in every city is really boring.

March 29, 2011 12:02:44 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'll be picking up if you guys offer a beta.  I think you've learned a lot since the base game and am happy to support your company.  Thanks. 

March 29, 2011 12:49:32 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I was thinking tonight of a more succinct way to describe the philosophy different.  I'd say War of Magic was designed to be a lot more abstract.  That's why so many people found it bland I think. The details of the soldiers and magic were not considered core to the game design because ultimately it was about which civilization was able to acquire the most powerful weapons and spells rather than any real concern over how well those weapons and spells were used.  The blandess was a "feature" not a bug.  But in hindsight, not a good idea.

Looking back at the earliest beta posts here really show how the focus was a player's logistics. There was relatively little effort put into how wars would be fought or how precisely cities would be built but instead on the abstract overall power of a given city, a given army, a given faction.

The problem with WOM in its current state is that it still tries to be too many things at once.  That's something I hope to address in future builds of WOM.  If WOM had stayed true to its "battle of magical civilizations" concept (which would mean huge armies rather than small groups) users might not have cared so much about how generic individuals could be. It tried to have it both ways -- abstracted individuals = bland.  armies that are abstracted (like in Total War) make sense. individuals whose details have been abstracted doesn't make as much sense.

Hence, one of the first changes I put into v1.3 of WOM is the elimination of individual formations and instead starting with 4 and going up from there. 

March 29, 2011 1:06:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I hope we have some unmarryable heroes this time.  That way it doesn't matter how uber they are because the traits can't be passed on.  It's a whole new dynamic to play with.

March 29, 2011 1:12:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm kinda hoping that EWOM and FE get combined at some point- I want a 4X game with Kael's changes.  There is a 2nd XP planned for 2012, so maybe then.

I'll have to see what FE ends up like first though.

 

 

March 29, 2011 2:33:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Trojasmic,



Quoting FadedC,
reply 14
As with any sequel, there will be people who hate it and talk about how much better the old one is.


i doubt that




I should clarify that I'm not saying the game will be worse then the original. I mean there's really no way to know at this point (and I'm keeping my hopes up that it will be great). I'm just saying that every game that has ever had a sequel has people who hate it because of even the most minor changes compared to the game they loved. We can already see some of that here and the game isn't even out yet. I guarantee you there will be people who will like the old one better, no matter how much better the new one is.

March 29, 2011 3:12:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FadedC,

Quoting Trojasmic, reply 16


Quoting FadedC,
reply 14
As with any sequel, there will be people who hate it and talk about how much better the old one is.


i doubt that


I should clarify that I'm not saying the game will be worse then the original. I mean there's really no way to know at this point (and I'm keeping my hopes up that it will be great). I'm just saying that every game that has ever had a sequel has people who hate it because of even the most minor changes compared to the game they loved. We can already see some of that here and the game isn't even out yet. I guarantee you there will be people who will like the old one better, no matter how much better the new one is.

I think you're missing the point.

The point is that there's very little chance the sequel will be worse than E:WoM.

While I personally consider E:WoM the largest gaming disappointment since Master of Orion 3, I think we should all look to the future with FE. I'm willing to give Stardock an honest chance with it. If they deliver this time, I promise to wipe away as much memory of E:WoM as I possibly can.

March 29, 2011 4:02:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I was thinking tonight of a more succinct way to describe the philosophy different.  I'd say War of Magic was designed to be a lot more abstract.  That's why so many people found it bland I think. The details of the soldiers and magic were not considered core to the game design because ultimately it was about which civilization was able to acquire the most powerful weapons and spells rather than any real concern over how well those weapons and spells were used.  The blandess was a "feature" not a bug.  But in hindsight, not a good idea ... The problem with WOM in its current state is that it still tries to be too many things at once. 

Sigh. I didn't want to read that. I think you're giving us one way of thinking here; that of the developer. I can see why you would say that, that you think the original game is too broad and abstract, with a lot of the focus on the game still in the "theoretical" phase. But look at how a gamer might see this.

You mention that some things are bland in the game because it tries to do too many things at once. I think it's bland because none of the implemented features are all that fun to use. Yes, the scope of the game can be colossal; there's a lot of possibility in this game. However, there's not that one really cool thing that makes we want to keep playing it; that is why I consider it bland, not because it's trying too much. So what, you tried to do many things, but if they were just fun to use, then there wouldn't be a problem.

I can't think of a better example, it's too late and I'm too tired, but take Doom 2 for instance. The first pistol sucked, and then you got a decent shotgun, and THEN you got that double barrel. Now that was a weapon. So if the ENTIRE rest of the game was trash (which it wasn't, it was an awesome game), I'd STILL play it because of that amazing weapon. I know there's other games out there that I played just because SOMETHING in it kept me playing, even though I didn't like the rest. Conversely in Elemental, if the battle system was fun, or if negotiating was fun, or if the spells were fun (heck, I'd like the game a lot more if you copy/pasted Magic Vortex from MoM, now that was a imbalanced/fun spell to play around with; that would make the battles and spells more fun to mess around with), or the discovery and role-playing was more fun, then there would at least be something, for myself, to keep playing for.

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude about it, and I don't want to harp on what has already happened, but what you said makes me wonder if the same mistake will be made in the future. Just because it had a big scope doesn't mean that THAT'S why the game was bland; it just means the game was bland, period. Those same features, sparse and scattered as they might be because of the enormous scope of the game, could have easily just been fun if they were implemented for that purpose, and not to feel like a broad outline for things to come. Conversely, if the game WASN'T given such a big scope, the game could STILL be bland and boring if the features that are implemented are just not that fun to use. I'd give up 90% of the spells, for example, if it would mean the remaining 10% were similar to fun spells in other similar fantasy strategy games.

Quoting Frogboy,
Hence, one of the first changes I put into v1.3 of WOM is the elimination of individual formations and instead starting with 4 and going up from there. 


I like some of the ideas that you have for FE (making it a more "personalized" game) and some of what is happening with Elemental, but for the latter ... I don't think "redesign" is what is needed for the game. Some things don't work and so you need to fix them, but keep that long term; add spells, add units, add quests; just add fun features that can help a person keep playing it.

In the mean time, I'll be cautiously awaiting FE; as Vallu751 said above, if FE is head and shoulders above War of Magic then that's the game I'll play. I won't look back, because I don't think there's anything currently in WoM that will bring me back; and that's a bit sad.

March 29, 2011 4:26:59 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You don’t have housing in Fallen Enchantress.
But then where do people live?

March 29, 2011 4:41:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You don’t have housing in Fallen Enchantress. City Building is much more specialized

Sounds great. I never got any kicks out of building the cities in WoM anyway...

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