What Gives? Supreme Commander 2 Support Absurd Compared to Demigod

By on April 10, 2010 1:33:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Polynomial

Join Date 02/2008
+37

I don't understand something. And to be perfectly honest it has begun to annoy me the more I think about it.

Supreme Commander 2 is on its 5th significant patch a month after release with more dedicated support clearly communicated by GPG. Last year the cries were UI is too expensive to implement. Well, GPG keeps doing it. On a budget HALF THE SIZE of Demigod. Supreme Commander 1 and Demigod had a budget of $10 million. Supreme Commander 2 had a budget of $5 million. I know this because I was able to speak with the devs at Uber Entertainment at PAX East.

This bothers me because while I like Supreme Commander 2 a lot, I loved Demigod. Supreme Commander 2's multiplayer connections are flawless. How long did it take GPG to get the Demon Assassin and Occulus out? 6-7 months? How many maps did Demigod have? 8. Supreme Commander 2 has over 20. Supreme Commander 2 has way more art assets than Demigod did. So none of this makes sense. Considering GPG lost 1/2 its employees in 2008 Demigod seems like an internal GPG disaster and put out prematurely to make back lost money. I think because Scathis left motivation to continue support for this game disolved entirely.

While I love Stardock for what it does, I'm sensing a little bit of Demigod BS here. And this is the first time I don't know who to blame.

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April 10, 2010 2:26:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Mmmm, interesting stuff.

I've always felt we've never been told the truth about what actually happened behind curtains that led to the disastrous launch (which i was fortunate enough to miss), and the subsequent long and delayed process to get the game to the semi-playable state we have it in now. Too bad i think we will never know, and all we will get at most is a pair of minor bug-fixing patches in the next 1-2 years.

It's been more than a year now that Demigod was released, and stability/connection/bug-wise we have a version that would be acceptable at release date, but not a year after that. Demigod is "reasonably" balanced thanks to players-feedback, but it still has sh*ttons of bugs and stability-connection issues, and no it's not our computers/setups Frogboy, no matter how many times you say that .

I mean, this week, 13+ months after release, SD issued a list of to-do bugfixes that were pinpointed and (some of them) custom-fixed by players months ago, and some of them have been present since DAY 1 (!!!!!!!!!). To make it worse, that list is far from complete (for example, UB Post-Mortem skill killed creeps not rewarding proper gold and XP), and there seems to be no intention to investigate-fix the connection drops that keep on ruining this game.

So, yeah, i call Demigod BS here too, but i don't expect any answer at this point. 

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April 10, 2010 4:35:52 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I'll be very interested to see if SupCom 2 support still looks like this in another month.

Sure, Demigod looks to have gotten a shorter end of the stick than usual but so far, GPG hasn't exactly been synonymous with lasting attention to their titles.  For now, I wouldn't read too much into it.  The patches may seem signifcant but for a multiplayer-focused game, they're once again just adding basic features that really should have been there to begin with. 

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April 10, 2010 5:15:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Interesting stuff Poly!

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April 10, 2010 6:45:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Demigod = 10 Mio ?????

 

if its true, the game is a commercial FLOP !!

 

what have they done with all the money ?????

SupCom2 has much more content with half of the budget !

SupCom1's Budget was as high as Demigods ??? This game has tons more content than DG.

DG also uses the engine, which was developed for SupCom1 .....and developing engines is a expensive story ! these costs belong to SupCom1s Budget (mostly), not to DGs !

so ....DG uses the old engine and has less contant......the budget has to be much much smaller than the Budget of SupCom1 !

 

otherwise : the scale of missmanaging a great game is even much bigger as already expected !

 

 

gg GPG

 

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April 10, 2010 7:52:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'd take those figures with a grain of salt, pending word from someone still with the company.

Given the folks at Uber left GPG quite some time ago (before SC2 had a publisher, I think), their figures for SC2 might well just be the development budget at the point they left. There's no knowing whether that included the post-release budget and other expenses or changes since their departures. Further, it's impossible to say what guidelines Square-Enix may have set for post-release support, or how their signing SC2 may have impacted the budget.

My understanding was that the Moho engine saw a large number of changes and upgrades for Demigod, while SC2 was a much smaller update of Demigod's version of Moho, which could have a considerable impact on budget as well.

 

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April 10, 2010 8:02:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

As well, my understanding was that the Moho engine saw a large number of changes and upgrades for Demigod, while SC2 was a much smaller update of Demigod's version of Moho, which could have a considerable impact on budget.

heh... so surely these small updates will hit dg

Reasonable analysis though. 

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April 10, 2010 8:40:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ,
Supreme Commander 2 is on its 5th significant patch a month after release with more dedicated support clearly communicated by GPG...

Supreme Commander is to Gas Powered Games as Final Fantasy is to Square Enix, thus they're going to make sure it doesn't go down.  Demigod could've, quite frankly, eclipsed Supreme Commander if it had the support and content.  While I still love Demigod, it's clear that we're only ever going to see the correction of what shouldn't had been broken.  And, to be honest, I believe we'll get those corrections because of Stardock, not GPG.  I can only hope for a Demigod 2.  And if they do to Demigod what they did to Supreme Commander 2, i.e. make it a generic clone with less personality, I'm washing my hands of Chris Taylor.

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April 10, 2010 9:47:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting kryo,
I'd take those figures with a grain of salt, pending word from someone still with the company.

Given the folks at Uber left GPG quite some time ago (before SC2 had a publisher, I think), their figures for SC2 might well just be the development budget at the point they left. There's no knowing whether that included the post-release budget and other expenses or changes since their departures. Further, it's impossible to say what guidelines Square-Enix may have set for post-release support, or how their signing SC2 may have impacted the budget.

My understanding was that the Moho engine saw a large number of changes and upgrades for Demigod, while SC2 was a much smaller update of Demigod's version of Moho, which could have a considerable impact on budget as well.

 

That still does not answer my question, kryo. You know me, I'm not some Demigod flamer. I loved the game. I just want to know exactly why Demigod's support was next to nothing compared to Supreme Commander 2's.

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April 10, 2010 10:15:51 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I can only hope for a Demigod 2. And if they do to Demigod what they did to Supreme Commander 2, i.e. make it a generic clone with less personality, I'm washing my hands of Chris Taylor.

For me, all I would ask for Demigod 2 is, balanced dg's, more maps for 2v2,3v3,4v4 and fixing all teh bugs and a no stat mode...

 

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April 10, 2010 10:22:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I loved the game. I just want to know exactly why Demigod's support was next to nothing compared to Supreme Commander 2's.

I really can't say any more or any better about Demigod's support than Brad already has in past discussions.

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April 10, 2010 10:42:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Polynomial,

That still does not answer my question, kryo. You know me, I'm not some Demigod flamer. I loved the game. I just want to know exactly why Demigod's support was next to nothing compared to Supreme Commander 2's.

If you feel that way, I guess you'd have to ask GPG.  It's their game. They have a Demigod forum on their site.

BTW, SupCom 2's budget was much higher than Demigod's. Demigod was no where near $10m to make.

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April 10, 2010 10:58:43 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I tried to ask GPG. I've never gotten any responses. I've emailed Chris Taylor, I've posted in forums. Its why I talked to the Uber guys at PAX East. I appreciate your response Frogboy. It simply just annoys me GPG is clearly capable of great support, but decided to shaft Demigod in favor of Supreme Commander 2 development. GPG never saw a single dollar back from SupCom 1 with a $10 million budget, so $5 million for SupCom 2 sounded right.

Oh well. Maybe Demigod 2 after Kings and Castles. Kings and Castles is looking good. GPG owes us a Demigod 2 >.<

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April 11, 2010 1:34:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hi Poly!

GPG owes us a Demigod 2 >.<
I honestly would prefer if Uber Entertainment would make Demigod 2. (Because they actually designed most of the game except for Froboy's ideas like the flags AFAIK, great idea right there btw Frogboy!)

However:

Demigod is a trademark of Gas Powered Games.

Btw, SupCom2's multiplayer connections are far from perfect. The lobby randomly drops players, player randomly loose connection during the loading screen or sometimes even in the game. There is an exploit that lets the loosing player disconnect and he will get a win in the stats. The ranked ladder is completely borked, some players started with the usual Elo rating of 1600 while others started at 0! (They would have to play for weeks to get to 1600 without a ladder reset but that has already been announced.) There are several cheaters who play with infinite resources or research points, one of them was #1 for some time...

Does any of that sound familiar?

 

I do believe that SupCom2's development budget was a lot smaller than the first game: The engine was already build, there are less than half the number of units and maps in SupCom2, textures and meshes are way less detailed, no expensive rendering scenes in the campaign, they didn't even bother to make proper campaign mission briefings. There is no map editor and the game is locked against modding atm.

Development time was rather short (I think ~18 month) with a team half the size of the original team and they had to cook up the Xbox version during that time as well. The closed beta was running for 2 or 3 weeks with only 30 people, many of them not experienced SupCom/FA players. By the time the beta started the gold version was basically already pressed onto DVDs which might explain the 4 GB patch at release.

 

I will not go into the incredible bad design choices for the eco and the glaring balancing issues of SupCom2 because that would lead this threat off topic. Everything considered I would personally say Demigod is the superior game. It's basic gameplay mechanics are good, thought through and more fun. The Demigods are designed far better (considering artwork, skills and variety). The only things where SupCom2 can score some points are the number of maps, the single player campaign, pathfinding and the patch support. GPG seems to be less reluctant to actually fix issues in Supcom2 and improve the balance for some reason.

Taking everything into account I would consider Demigod the better game. And I will be back once I got my gaming PC fixed.

 

Speaking of Uber Entertainment, check out their debut game Monday Night Combat! It's a 3rd person shooter but the gameplay mechanics remind me a lot of Demigod. It is annouced for the Xbox but the developers assure me that they will release a PC version as well (if Microsoft doesn't pull the 'it's Xbox exclusive' joker).

Check out their Youtube channel for more gameplay videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/UberEntChannel

Btw, Uber Entertainment's Creative Director is John Comes, aka Scathis, who designed Demigods gameplay in collaboration with Bob Berry, aka o, who is the CEO of Uber. Their CTO Jon Mavor, aka neutrino, was part of the original Total Annihilation development team and fans of Parcour, ninjas and stunts may want to check out this video by Uber's animator AZO!

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April 11, 2010 2:13:00 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I try to explain:

SupCom 2 is on Steam ( big fish= large userbase=more money)

Demigod is on Impulse ( small fish=small userbase=less money )

 

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April 11, 2010 3:08:22 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Btw, SupCom2's multiplayer connections are far from perfect. The lobby randomly drops players, player randomly loose connection during the loading screen or sometimes even in the game. There is an exploit that lets the loosing player disconnect and he will get a win in the stats.

Not that I'm thrilled to hear that they still have issues, but I'm actually a little glad to hear that they don't have all of their connectivity issues sorted.  Poly indicated they were swell and as thats something that really plagues us dg folks, I was a little annoyed to hear that they may have ironned everything out

 

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April 11, 2010 4:19:34 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

they dropped demigod because the lunach was a fail and it still had isusses so they fixed some of them but blamed it on stardock to make like it wasn't them who screwed up when they really did, they didn't want to go impulse again because it would show it really was their own fault so they went steam. because its better known even though steam doesn't even run well at all, sluggish wants you to be online, doesn't run well if your net is limited.

i blame GPG for the problems they weren't ready to reslease it and because of the problems it had they didn't want to fix it anymore they don't want anything to do with it besides the money from it getting sold, they see it as a failure in their eyes.

stardock can't fix the issues or add anything with out GPG allowing them to.

the blame really falls on GPG for not adding more or patching anymore.

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April 11, 2010 12:46:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pacov,

Btw, SupCom2's multiplayer connections are far from perfect. The lobby randomly drops players, player randomly loose connection during the loading screen or sometimes even in the game. There is an exploit that lets the loosing player disconnect and he will get a win in the stats.
Not that I'm thrilled to hear that they still have issues, but I'm actually a little glad to hear that they don't have all of their connectivity issues sorted.  Poly indicated they were swell and as thats something that really plagues us dg folks, I was a little annoyed to hear that they may have ironned everything out

 

Supreme Commander 2's multiplayer is perfect compared to Demigod's. I had never had a lobby crash, random disconnect or long freeze periods like I always had in Demigod. The game does not freeze up when you win a game, and there is no wait period for poeple to connect after they get into a lobby. Sim speed issues are basically non existent. And 4v4s run about 585x smoother than Demigod's 5v5s with less art assets. When it comes to connections, Demigod's worst aspect, Supreme Commander 2 is perfect in comparison.

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April 15, 2010 7:15:39 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, even a warthog looks beautiful compared to a blobfish.

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April 15, 2010 8:31:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting kryo,
I'd take those figures with a grain of salt, pending word from someone still with the company.

Given the folks at Uber left GPG quite some time ago (before SC2 had a publisher, I think), their figures for SC2 might well just be the development budget at the point they left. There's no knowing whether that included the post-release budget and other expenses or changes since their departures. Further, it's impossible to say what guidelines Square-Enix may have set for post-release support, or how their signing SC2 may have impacted the budget.

My understanding was that the Moho engine saw a large number of changes and upgrades for Demigod, while SC2 was a much smaller update of Demigod's version of Moho, which could have a considerable impact on budget as well.

 

SupCom 2 was an update of the FA engine, not the Demigod engine.

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April 15, 2010 8:33:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

SupCom 2 just got a another major update

This is just dumb.

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April 15, 2010 9:45:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Polynomial,
SupCom 2 just got a another major update

This is just dumb.

Maybe Chris Taylor learned something from Demigod:  That if you don't support your games post release, then the player base slowly loses hope and leaves... so you don't get enough long term revenue... so your kids don't get to go to college. 

 

Ummm... yay I guess?  Good news for Demigod 2 that GPG can learn from their mistakes?

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April 15, 2010 11:31:43 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Thundercles,
...Ummm... yay I guess?  Good news for Demigod 2 that GPG can learn from their mistakes?


To be completely frank, I doubt GPG learnt anything; I think they simply gave a bigger budget to Supreme Commander 2's post-release support because it's their biggest title.  Demigod was clearly not a very high priority for them from the beginning and thus it received less post-release support, sadly.

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April 15, 2010 11:53:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Demigod was clearly not a very high priority for them from the beginning and thus it received less post-release support, sadly.

It could've been so epic... Hopefully they get there with a second one... Hopefully stardock publishes it again so we get some support guaranteed!!

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April 16, 2010 1:58:20 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Thundercles,

Maybe Chris Taylor learned something from Demigod:  That if you don't support your games post release, then the player base slowly loses hope and leaves.

Player base tends to dwindle and leave anyway, unless the title is a mega blockbuster like Starcraft.  Even SC bled significant players over time, though the community is still viably large.  Take a nearby example:  Ironclad and Stardock are still supporting Sins of a Solar Empire (best seller in 2008 with over 500k copies sold that year) with bug fixes, balance patches, and even a new expansion, but the Ironclade Online population dwindled from ~300 about a year ago to ~2*30=60 (Entrenchment+Diplomacy) now, and Sins as far as I can tell has much better connectivity than Demigod.

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April 16, 2010 3:08:02 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

with an e:  Sure all online games lose their player base over time, but its my opinion that Demigod could have been so different. If things had gone better I believe this game could have been the next Starcraft...

Latency and connectivity issues are so bad only one map can be played regularly and this game is the redheaded stepchild of the developer and gets supported accordingly... I could go on but its all been said before, but in spite of all that went wrong we're still here because it is the most fun and addicting game I've ever played.  Just imagine if more than a negligible effort had been made by GPG to balance it and fix the bugs?

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